After 5-weeks, I turned FSD Beta off!

After years of waiting I finally got my FSD Beta! After 6-weeks I turned it off.

I found the promise of the FSD Beta to be overblown. Yes it is very cool that the car will navigate on city streets to a destination. But the car is far too timid to be usable. It is worse than driving with a student driver. Also, the car’s hesitation causes a lot of problems with other drivers who get confused when they see the car stop or slow, when it should not. But that is not what made me turn it off.

I turned it off because it made the overall driving experience annoying, and more dangerous.

With the beta turned-on, the car makes speed changes at nearly every speed limit sign, even when only running TACC. Not only is this annoying but these changers often alarm my passengers and sometimes surprise the cars behind. The car does not do this when the FSD is disabled.

And then there is a notice at nearly every traffic light that one is coming, even when running only on TACC. I find I am spending time clearing nuisance alerts instead focusing 100% of my time on driving the car. And the sudden speed changes, if you miss one of the alerts, is just another version of the phantom breaking problem with the same set of issues for the cars behind. Note that I have this feature disabled under AP. This does not occur if FSD is disabled.

Next we have speed based lane changes. I disabled this under AP and the FSD stack just ignores this as well, and there is no way to tell it not to do so.

So overall, the benefit of having FSD is very minimal, while the negative impact to quality and enjoyment of driving is very real. I definably will not be buying FSD on a future car, unless these problems are fixed.

"Tesla Autopilot Engaged in Model X" by Ian Maddox is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[ATPMSD]

ALL sensors have their limitations,

This includes human vision, which Tesla in attempting to replace it with cameras, forgot. Cameras have many of the same problems as human vision.

 

[drtimhill]

This includes human vision, which Tesla in attempting to replace it with cameras, forgot. Cameras have many of the same problems as human vision.

But many advantages .. such as 360 degrees of view, full acuity at all points (no fovea), improved night sensitivity and ability to switch between light and dark faster than the human eye. The point was always that you MUST have some form of vision for the car to be able to do what it does .. distinguish and identify objects and place them in 3D space. Several arguments have been made that LIDAR is now high enough resolution to identify objects, which of course more or less means it IS a vision system by another name.

 

[nvx1977]

On a Foggy Day in the mountains in Pennsylvania, or Northern Pacific, how does that visual work, I can tell you RADAR and LIDAR is 100% accurate without vision.

This is where you need to rethink your assumptions. In an extreme fog (or rain or snow) situation, vision can no longer see the lane lines. Radar can't see lane lines in any weather conditions. Same with lidar. They also can't see what's written on signs. So even if you had all 3 sensors providing data under foggy conditions, the car still can't drive safely.

radar and lidar augment vision; they aren't substitutes or redundant backup sensors. In most situations, if vision is impaired, the car cannot continue autonomous driving, or it has to go really slowly, much like how a human would do the same in very poor weather.

 

[BrendonHolt]

This is where you need to rethink your assumptions. In an extreme fog (or rain or snow) situation, vision can no longer see the lane lines. Radar can't see lane lines in any weather conditions. Same with lidar. They also can't see what's written on signs. So even if you had all 3 sensors providing data under foggy conditions, the car still can't drive safely.

radar and lidar augment vision; they aren't substitutes or redundant backup sensors. In most situations, if vision is impaired, the car cannot continue autonomous driving, or it has to go really slowly, much like how a human would do the same in very poor weather.

Agreed, but in this case Automobiles will never really be self driving, but Radar and Lidar can see farther, and you can see the lines, just not a long way, so Vision would work to keep lane, just not see far down the road. Autonomous driving would work in Fog if it can see the lines, slow down, and have safety built in.

So I contend, Radar would work better as a supplement to Vision. Yes Vision is a key technology to enable driving, but still arguing for other tech to be included.

 

[BrendonHolt]

Tesla has two forward cameras, so if one fails, the other should suffice long enough to stop the vehicle or for the driver to take over.

Agreed, but still just one system, Visual, need cross reference tech to assure safety.

 

[ATPMSD]

But many advantages

I don’t disagree, but you can’t ignore short comings. Cameras are blinded by sunlight and rain, this is not a problem for radar (except in heavy rain), so removing radar was foolish. And the removal of ultrasonics sensors again ignores these issues, plus a camera does not have x-ray vision and cannot see in front of the car when the vision is blocked by the hood. Also, I have to wonder, how effective vision will be in judging distance on the side of the car, in the dark.

Cameras are great, but only if we are willing to acknowledge their limitations and remain open to supplementing those limitations.

 

[BrendonHolt]

This is where you need to rethink your assumptions. In an extreme fog (or rain or snow) situation, vision can no longer see the lane lines. Radar can't see lane lines in any weather conditions. Same with lidar. They also can't see what's written on signs. So even if you had all 3 sensors providing data under foggy conditions, the car still can't drive safely.

radar and lidar augment vision; they aren't substitutes or redundant backup sensors. In most situations, if vision is impaired, the car cannot continue autonomous driving, or it has to go really slowly, much like how a human would do the same in very poor weather.

As to Snow, this makes the point that cars that drive themselves have many limitations. Humans do a lot when driving, some good and some not so good. But we can drive in Snow and make it to our destination, albeit, not always with all our wits about us.

 

[johnnycnote]

IMHO... Tesla will provide the best vision only system possible until it is cost effective to add LIDAR, RADAR, and whatever other DAR system becomes available. Tesla introduced some of the most technically advanced vehicles that anyone of us could have ever imagined. To keep innovating, pushing boundaries, and to force competitors to be better, we need Tesla to stay in business and to continue making boatloads of money

 

[ATPMSD]

Tesla introduced some of the most technically advanced vehicles that anyone of us could have ever imagined.

Elon is a visionary. Unfortunately, he lacks common sense. Removal of radar and USS are primary examples.

Tesla will provide the best vision only system possible until it is cost effective to add LIDAR, RADAR

Elon‘s vision is a car that uses 100% vision to navigate. Adding radar back will have nothing to do with cost effectiveness, it will appear when he is forced to realize a 100% vision approach will not let him reach the higher levels of FSD. This is why we are about to see radar reappear in Tesla cars.

 

[eli_]

I don’t disagree, but you can’t ignore short comings. Cameras are blinded by sunlight and rain, this is not a problem for radar (except in heavy rain), so removing radar was foolish. And the removal of ultrasonics sensors again ignores these issues, plus a camera does not have x-ray vision and cannot see in front of the car when the vision is blocked by the hood. Also, I have to wonder, how effective vision will be in judging distance on the side of the car, in the dark.

Cameras are great, but only if we are willing to acknowledge their limitations and remain open to supplementing those limitations.

If cameras were blinded by rain, the auto-wipers would work a whole lot better. But unfortunately rain drops on the windshield are barely even detectable via the cameras.

 

[ewoodrick]

There is no TECHNICAL ADVANTAGE to remove LIDAR or RADAR, and peoples lives are literally on the line IF it fails, for any reason. No need, technology is there, see my other posts in regards to Automotive Sensor Technology.

LIDAR isn't needed. That's been a validated Elon premise since day 1. (and go take a look at how many LIDAR manufacturers are still in business)
RADAR was determined as not needed, it just didn't add anything to the equation.

Is LIDAR and RADAR technically required to drive a car? I'm pretty sure that I don't have built into my person, do you?

The technical reason to remove it is that there is no technical reason to add it.

 

[ewoodrick]

Sorry I wasn't clear. I have one of the new MYs without any sensors, so I'm referring to the fact that HW4 is coming with new radar.

I don't think the set of EAP features will be restored for my car. Nor do I believe I'll have parking warnings. And this is specifically because Tesla is already announcing that HW4 is coming soon (sorry). Sure, it may not be out until next year. But doesn't this announcement tell you that they can't do those features without sensors of some kind?

Sure, V11 is coming and I'm always Suzy Sunshine. I can hope. But I feel like, "oh sure, HW4, fabulous... never mind your customers with HW3 trying to park."

Wow, you are just totally getting everything confused together.

FSD WILL WORK WITH HW3.
Parking sensors are in a TEMPORARY situation where they are switching from ultrasonics to vision. That should be fixed shortly.

They are two very different situations with very different solutions.

EAP will be re-enabled once the software for replacing the ultrasonics is in place. It will probably be V11 (mainly because V11 was the current development stream when the decision to remove the ultrasonics was made)

When I bought my car, I didn't have my back seat heaters yet, it took a few months before they added it to the software. I know it was coming, I didn't go crying about it.

Your EAP will be back.

 

[ewoodrick]

Elon is a visionary. Unfortunately, he lacks common sense. Removal of radar and USS are primary examples.



Elon‘s vision is a car that uses 100% vision to navigate. Adding radar back will have nothing to do with cost effectiveness, it will appear when he is forced to realize a 100% vision approach will not let him reach the higher levels of FSD. This is why we are about to see radar reappear in Tesla cars.

How are you able to drive without a built-in RADAR? Or do you do it with VISION ONLY??? Please let us all know.

 

[eli_]

I can understand if radar or USS was some magic panacea and Tesla stupidly removed it to save money. But the radar they had (and most every car has) was this dumb thing that could easily confuse a soda can or manhole cover with a city bus (all those objects look identical from radar's POV). And as such they had to filter out all objects with zero velocity, so stopped cars were essentially invisible to radar and could only be detected via vision. Now Tesla's upgraded radar is rumored to be this fancy "HD" variety that I guess has some decent resolution and may actually add some value, but it's mostly speculation for now.

 

[COS Blue]

EAP will be re-enabled once the software for replacing the ultrasonics is in place. It will probably be V11 (mainly because V11 was the current development stream when the decision to remove the ultrasonics was made)

It blows my mind that anybody thinks it's acceptable for Tesla to arbitrarily remove functionality from our cars, temporarily or not.

 

[ewoodrick]

It blows my mind that anybody thinks it's acceptable for Tesla to arbitrarily remove functionality from our cars, temporarily or not.

Probably blows your mind that Tesla adds features to cars that were not envisioned when you bought the car as well.

I don't think that Tesla removed the functionality from any existing cars, they made a change in production, and it wasn't in cars past a certain date. It's the equivalent to a model year change for other manufacturers. It's not as if the owner had it and it was removed. That HAS occurred in the past.

 

[COS Blue]

Probably blows your mind that Tesla adds features to cars that were not envisioned when you bought the car as well.

No, it does not. The only features I can think of that have been added to my car are (1) Adding stops to navigation and (2) Tidal. They are definitely improvements, but far from mind-blowing.

I don't think that Tesla removed the functionality from any existing cars,

Did they not reduce the option for "1" following distance when they disabled radar? And put a limit on autosteer speed?

My car can no longer drive the speed limit on cruise control when heading toward the sun if it's low in the sky. I would argue that is removed functionality. I could do this fine before TV.

But I'm glad to hear they didn't disable EAP/smart-summon from existing cars. Guess I misunderstood that point (I don't have those options).

 

[ATPMSD]

If cameras were blinded by rain, the auto-wipers would work a whole lot better. But unfortunately rain drops on the windshield are barely even detectable via the cameras.

Missing the point. My side cameras have been blinded plenty by rain. Also, if rain drops were barely detectable by cameras then why do we need wipers at all? The point is only that radar is not affected by rain where as cameras are.

 

[ATPMSD]

How are you able to drive without a built-in RADAR? Or do you do it with VISION ONLY??? Please let us all know

You are just being argumentative. This is not about how we as humans drive, it is about automated driving systems. The point is that while vision can do a lot vision, has limitations. It is foolish to rely entirely on vision when you can improve on it. Consider a foggy road - your eyes can see say 50 feet, radar can see hundreds of feet.

 

[Dewg]

I'll remind people that while RADAR and LIDAR are excellent additional sensors, they cannot drive the car without cameras, aside from freeway adaptive cruise control with a lead car

In order to drive without a lead car, with intersections, cameras are needed to see signal lights and speed limit signs at a minimum.

In fog, heavy rain, or other inclement conditions, most ADAS functions are useless.

So, the example above about a foggy road. Yes, RADAR can see further than cameras, but cannot see the red light ahead, or the speed limit signs that dropped from 50MPH to 35MPH.