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After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

When would you consider initiating/joining a class action lawsuit for Tesla failure to deliver FSD?

  • Already enquiring with/engaging legal services

    Votes: 28 6.3%
  • End of 2021

    Votes: 101 22.8%
  • End of 2022

    Votes: 80 18.1%
  • 2023 - 2025

    Votes: 48 10.8%
  • 2025 - 2030

    Votes: 21 4.7%
  • After 2030

    Votes: 11 2.5%
  • Never

    Votes: 140 31.6%
  • Other - see comments

    Votes: 14 3.2%

  • Total voters
    443
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The fsd description just says it's designed to conduct short and long trips without any action required by the driver.

No, it does not say that

It says without any action required by "the person in the drivers seat"

Obviously if they meant DRIVER they'd have said that :)


That person, since it's an L4 or L5 system, is not a driver but a passenger

L3 and below systems require action from a human in the seat

L4 and above does not.

It's really that simple.
 
Why?

Until they actually have working FSD- as defined when it was sold to those MCU1 owners- they have no way to know how to deliver it to them.
ROFL. No.

Let's look at this from an engineering perspective. Most of the self-driving functionality occurs in the self-driving computer. What remains is visualization and navigation data queries. Of these:
  • The visualization is a parlor trick. Exactly nobody cares if they can't deliver that fully on MCU1. If you're looking at the visualizations instead of driving, you aren't really supervising the ADAS anyway. The only real benefit of visualization comes during post-drive analysis — looking at videos on YouTube or whatever and figuring out what the car was thinking. I think we can all live without that.
  • The navigation data isn't going to suddenly become less important as the complexity of the FSD side increases. If anything, it will become more of a bottleneck as the FSD system becomes more proactive at considering alternative routes. And MCU1 already struggles with navigation, and has for a long time.
So either MCU1 can handle the throughput for navigation or it can't. There's no plausible path going forward where that problem gets easier.

To be fair, it might be possible to expend engineering resources to rewrite the MCU software to make it more efficient, and that might be enough to fix whatever performance problems are preventing deployment, but that's an engineering effort whose time can be easily estimated, and more importantly, such efforts are entirely independent of FSD development.

So there's no reason that they can't work on that now, other than not wanting to spend the resources on it. And if they're not willing to do so now, there's no reason to believe that they will do so in the future. The fact of the matter is that FSD will never be "done" — there will always be improvements that can be made — so saying that they'll add support for older cars when FSD is "done" is tantamount to saying that they'll never do it. Besides, MCU1 performance took a nose dive two years ago and hasn't improved at all over those two years, so if they haven't done it by now, there's no reason to believe that they ever will.

Further, the amount of engineering effort required for making MCU1 work isn't going to get smaller over time if they put it off, and will probably get considerably bigger as the MCU1 branch diverges further from the main branch. If they're not doing the work as they go along, the odds of them successfully doing so get smaller with each passing day. And if they are, they should be able to give us a status update every so often.

Again, until they have a WORKING FSD solution (the FSD deliverable MCU1 owners were promised, not the newer L2 version being sold) they can't give you a date.

The plan on how to achieve it has changed- multiple times- and is changing at least one more time we know of. It might change again in the future.

No, it actually hasn't. If you look at the MCU's responsibilities for FSD purposes, they're still pretty much exactly the same as they always were. What changed is that they enabled the dashcam feature, and MCU1 can't handle the load. If you think that's magically going to get fixed, I have a bridge to sell you. :)
 
Yes, it's very simple. If Tesla meant level 4, they would have said so

They did.

By telling you the person in the drivers seat (person, NOT driver) would not need to take any action for the car to conduct both long and short drives.

That's L4.

Everything lower in J3016 [B}requires action by the driver[/B]

L4 and L5, the person in the seat is not a driver when the system is on- they're a passenger.


If Tesla had meant "Driver" they'd have said driver :)
 
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If Tesla had meant "Driver" they'd have said driver :)

The person in the driver's seat isn't driving if he's not steering or touching the pedals. See my example about parent supervising kid's driving above.

I don't understand your insistence on this.

You say it's very simple, but Tesla could have made it very simple by saying driverless or level 4. They didn't, so there can be different interpretations. This was probably their intent, as it reduces their legal burden.
 
The person in the driver's seat isn't driving if he's not steering or touching the pedals.

Again, this is factually untrue

I don't steer or touch the pedals when using basic autopilot, but I am absolutely driving because it's an L2 system.


I don't understand your insistence on this.

Because it's factually correct, and reflects both Teslas own wording and the SAE J3016 wording.


You say it's very simple, but Tesla could have made it very simple by saying driverless

They did. By mentioning the person (not driver) in the seat won't have to take any action.


Again by definition the lowest SAE level where that guy does not need to take any action is 4.

You keep digging deeper holes looking for explanations that do not match anything Tesla, or SAE, actually says and I'm really not sure why.
 
Also, you aren't technically driving when AP is engaged

YES YOU ARE.

by definition under SAE L2 you are driving when using an L2 system, the car is not

The car is just assisting with certain tasks.

SAE J3016 said:
Level or Category 2 - Partial Driving Automation

The sustained and ODD-specific execution by a driving automation system of both the lateral and longitudinal vehicle motion
control subtasks of the DDT with the expectation that the driver completes the OEDR subtask and supervises the driving
automation system.

You are still, actively, the driver the entire time using an L2 system.



That is the entire point of difference between L0-L2 systems and higher.

You continue to make it clear you either haven't read, or did not understand, SAE J3016. I strongly suggest you take a look at it.


At L3, the CAR is driving when active-- this is the lowest level where the car is ever "the driver" in that it can perform the entire DDT under certain conditions....but the human must still take action when requested to by the system and the human in the drivers seat is always, actively, acting as the safety fallback for the system.

Only at L4 and L5 does the person in the driver seat not need to take any actions for the car to do the entire driving task including the safety fallback piece.

Thus Tesla described a system that is at least L4, because only at L4 and above is no action required from the person in the drivers seat.

By the literal definitions in J3016.
 
Again, you’re the one contorting the fsd description to fit the levels. Nowhere in the fsd description does it allude to or reference the levels.

anyway, I’ve said all I can about this. You’re free to stick with your one and only interpretation of the fsd description.
 
Again, you’re the one contorting the fsd description to fit the levels.

I'm literally quoting the SAE level doc showing you, repeatedly, where your claims are repeatedly refuted by it, and mine are directly cited from it.


You on the other hand are so misinformed on how any of this works, or what the levels actually mean, that you think an L2 system like autopilot means the human is not driving when operating. Which is flat out wrong and directly contradicted by the SAE J3016 spec.



Nowhere in the fsd description does it allude to or reference the levels.

No, instead it describes the actual intended capability of the system.

To conduct drives, both short and long, without any action required from a human in the drivers seat.

Which, by definition, means L4 or higher.

Any SAE driving level below 4 requires action from a human in the drivers seat by the definition of the levels by SAE

Tesla stated FSD (the pre 3/19 one) will not require any action from them.

Thus they're describing a system that is, by definition, at least L4.


How you get confused from here remains a mystery.
 
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Yes, have been in multiple instances where if I didn't intervene I would have been in a major accident. Obviously there is no way to know unless you let it get in an accident as it could correct last second, but with its current behavior I highly doubt it.
Yeah, no doubt about this kind of thing.

I haven't had the "Oh, lets kill you" sudden twerk with 10.8.1 yet, but I certainly had it with previous versions.
 
I literally said the opposite of that.


There's been TWO total in the US I'm aware of.

One was not related to autonomy promises at all

The other has not been won

Do you need medical attention man?





Well, you at least need an eye doctor :)

YOU are the one who claimed if one just "googles" it they'll find lots of lawsuits- including lots where Tesla lost.

Your claim is factually untrue.

When I pointed that out you didn't, as someone making an honest argument would, either:

Admit they were wrong in claiming that.
or
Provide evidence of these lots of lawsuits Tesla lost.


Instead you....weirdly... tried to claim I was somehow agreeing with you by pointing out your claims aren't true.





Because, as I pointed out, the crux of the case is what a salesperson at a gallery said

Not what Tesla states.

Tesla does not make the claims the gallery guy supposedly did





Primarily to lawyers. Each owner got an amount between $20 and $280.

And that suit was not about autonomy promised

It was about basic L2 features that all got delivered- they just came a few months late

And Tesla didn't lose the suit either- they settled out of court (and for a tiny fraction of what the lawsuit originally asked for)

There you go moving goalposts again though.





That appears to be a guy who filed suit himself in local court.

No lawyer would take his case I guess.

It'd be nice if the evidence you showed ever supported your actual original argument though.

And he just recently filed- nothing has been heard or ruled on.


BTW- watch out for using Plainsite as a source.

The owner (who actually HAS been ruled against, numerous times, in lawsuits involving Tesla and others) has been known to dox Tesla supporters based on captured IP info of those who go there.



He's one of the big TSLAQ anti-Tesla folks.

Though increasingly I suspect you knew that already :)




Here's you being grossly dishonest.

Again.

actual facts of your link

1) No lawyer involved.

2) He wasn't filing the case for failure to deliver FSD. He filed becuase he was promised when he bought that the price would always be higher in the future- and instead Tesla ran a sale.

His "win" was to get back the difference between the sale price, and the higher price he paid earlier.





Except, they haven't.

ZERO of the cases you've cited have had anyone "win" for undelivered autonomy.

There's definitely someone lying though. You can get a good look at him in a mirror.


I'd pass along some advice from Elon you'll doubtless ignore.


When you're digging your own grave... stop digging.

To be clear: if you take the time to read the complaint in Young v. Tesla, 21-cv-00917-JB-SCY (D.N.M. 2021)--which like all the docket entries, you can download as a PDF for free from Plainsite.org's website--the lawsuit does claim that Tesla deliberately sold customers a product that they knew they had not developed and could not deliver as promised. Indeed, the complaint alleges that the company told the CA DMV precisely the opposite of what they were (and are still) telling consumers--and they did that in writing and verbally in a follow-up meeting with DMV officials. The complaint links to the DMV documents obtained by Plainsite through the CA freedom of information act.

Also: note that Tesla changed its website shortly after removing this case to federal court, so the ordering pages no longer say "coming later this year" but now say "coming soon." Wonder why...

Another thing: Tesla in its reply to the motion essentially argues that the time for performance under the sales agreement--that is, the time to deliver FSDC--is never. They argue that as a matter of law there is no contractual obligation to ever deliver the product or refund your money. Guess we'll see whether a federal judge agrees...

Finally: Tesla also claims via Musk's tweet this May 28th that it would 'never' settle a lawsuit it chose to actively defend, but the docket in this case clearly shows that they moved the court twice to stay the proceedings to negotiate a settlement before filing a motion to dismiss.

That motion was kicked by the Article III federal judge to the magistrate recently to prepare a proposed ruling, which the Article III judge then signs off on or not. You can keep up to date by watching Plainsite.org's website, although it seems a little slow to update each docket entry...
 
No, it does not say that

It says without any action required by "the person in the drivers seat"

Obviously if they meant DRIVER they'd have said that :)


That person, since it's an L4 or L5 system, is not a driver but a passenger
The car has a "drivers seat" because it requires a driver. Otherwise they would have just said "the person in the passenger seat".
 
To be clear: if you take the time to read the complaint in Young v. Tesla, 21-cv-00917-JB-SCY (D.N.M. 2021)--which like all the docket entries, you can download as a PDF for free from Plainsite.org's website--the lawsuit does claim that Tesla deliberately sold customers a product that they knew they had not developed and could not deliver as promised. Indeed, the complaint alleges that the company told the CA DMV precisely the opposite of what they were (and are still) telling consumers--and they did that in writing and verbally in a follow-up meeting with DMV officials. The complaint links to the DMV documents obtained by Plainsite through the CA freedom of information act.

Also: note that Tesla changed its website shortly after removing this case to federal court, so the ordering pages no longer say "coming later this year" but now say "coming soon." Wonder why...

Another thing: Tesla in its reply to the motion essentially argues that the time for performance under the sales agreement--that is, the time to deliver FSDC--is never. They argue that as a matter of law there is no contractual obligation to ever deliver the product or refund your money. Guess we'll see whether a federal judge agrees...

Finally: Tesla also claims via Musk's tweet this May 28th that it would 'never' settle a lawsuit it chose to actively defend, but the docket in this case clearly shows that they moved the court twice to stay the proceedings to negotiate a settlement before filing a motion to dismiss.

That motion was kicked by the Article III federal judge to the magistrate recently to prepare a proposed ruling, which the Article III judge then signs off on or not. You can keep up to date by watching Plainsite.org's website, although it seems a little slow to update each docket entry...

BTW, regarding Musk's chest-thumping, consider the following:

1) Tesla's motion was filed under Rule 12(b)(6), an option to just denying everything in an answer to the complaint and proceeding to discovery. Under that rule, Tesla's motion is supposed to assume the allegations are true, and simply ask the court if the complaint states a claim 'for which relief may be granted' as a matter of law. In other words, 'Judge, can any of these claims really go forward to a jury?'

2) If the court lets any of the claims go forward, that means anyone else can present a similar claim (or claims) in their lawsuit or letter to an arbitrator (if they didn't think to 'opt out' per the sales agreement). And they can do so with confidence that they won't be dismissed by a court or be taken lightly by an arbitrator--typically a retired judge, hearing officer, or experienced litigator. (Tesla pays for arbitration costs under the sales agreement.)

3) Under the Supreme Court's decision in Parklane Hosiery Co., Inc. v. Shore, 439 U.S. 322 (1979) and state court opinions adopting the doctrine of 'offensive collateral estoppel,' if a final judgment is entered on any count in the above case (or any other case), Tesla could be legally barred from re-litigating any issue that it 'fully and fairly' litigated and lost.

In that scenario, all that'd be left to the wealthiest car company in the world in each such copy cat lawsuit would be a losing, half-day trial on the amount of damages: $6 to $12K for FSDC plus (wait for it) punitive damages in those states like NM that allow it with bad faith conduct under breach of contract. Per State Farm v. Campbell, 538 U.S. 408 (2003), limit those to $60 to $120K... but that's per case. Same scenario with an arbitration.

So, let's get out a calculator.

If, relying on the court's order above denying Tesla's motion as to any claim, just 250,000 drivers filed cases or presented demand letters seeking $12,000 refunds, Tesla's exposure without their $650 to $1,000 per hour defense lawyer fees, court costs, or arbitration fees (none of which they can recover), and without a dime of punitive damages would be... hang on a minute... $3 billion.

But of course they do have to pay court or arbitration costs, and they do have to pay $650 to $1,000 per hour lawyer fees, which even to prepare for a half-day arbitration are going to equal the payouts. So, with the same number of suits or arbitrations, that's another $2.5 to $3 billion.

IMHO, that's a pretty big matzo ball hanging out there--and at least conceivably could explain why, per the docket, the company has apparently tried twice in a row to negotiate a settlement.

Or not. Guess we'll soon see...
 
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And Musk said something to the effect that Tesla depends on FSD/robotaxis for profitability so little chance they give up on it.
Musk said the following: The overwhelming focus is on solving full self-driving. That's essential. It's really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.
 
Musk said the following: The overwhelming focus is on solving full self-driving. That's essential. It's really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.

The connection you note between the company's profitability and its promises regarding the efficacy and delivery date of FSDC is fascinating for a number of reasons.

In the above lawsuit, the complaint alleges that according to the Wall Street Journal, et al., Tesla was seriously undercapitalized in 2019 right about the time Musk made his public representations about FSDC, robotaxies, etc., in pod and webcasts before groups of investors and shareholders.

Soon thereafter, allegedly, the stock price and market share skyrocket, the company is suddenly flush with cash, and Musk begins hitting the targets required in his 2018 compensation package in order to receive his stock, he and the other Bd. of Directors members are vastly enriched.

So, at least three interesting questions are begged:

1) If Musk himself relatively recently equated the success of FSDC with Tesla being 'worth a lot of money or worth basically zero,' then precisely when was there a divergence between what Tesla's engineers were telling the company's CEO about FSDC's actual efficacy and likely delivery date, and what he was (and is) telling investors and the public?

2) What is the significance of any difference that may have existed between the truth known to the company (and quietly admitted to the CA DMV) about the actual efficacy and delivery date of FSDC, and the public's belief in the efficacy and imminent delivery of the software based on what its CEO was saying?

3) In this 1999 UC Hastings law review article, the author notes that the majority of American jurisdictions do not allow punitive damages for breach of contract unless the conduct comprises an independent tort--like fraud, which is pled in the alternative to breach of contract in the above lawsuit, and which Tesla's lawyers struggle mightily to throw out in their motion to dismiss.

However, the author of the article argues that the theory of economic efficiency supports allowing punitive damages for any willful breach of contract. And every first year law student knows that a party may ask for the establishment of new law or the extension of existing law under the court's rules. That's how we got the right to counsel in criminal cases, Native American tribes got the right to govern themselves, and a bunch of other stuff we now take for granted.

So: per this article, conceivably the evidence obtained through discovery in the above lawsuit (or some other copy cat case) could demonstrate that the company did willfully breach the sales agreements it made with more than a million people who ordered FSDC around the world--either by making what it knew were false or reckless promises to induce people to pay for FSDC or by refusing to refund the FSDC payments upon demand (or both).

And then there's the broader implication for Tesla and for people unsure of how to get a refund: If a bazillion plaintiff's lawyers currently make a perfectly good living by pursuing a high volume of low-dollar, rear-end collision claims, the vast majority of which are settled, then the lure (and threat) of getting punitive damages is analogous to pain-and-suffering damages that essentially fund the lawyer's contingent fee, while allowing for 100% return on the client's physical damages and medical treatment costs--which in our case are analogous to a 100% refund of the FSDC payments to clients.

Even if the courts did not buy the law professor's argument, the article provides a good faith basis for requesting them under the courts' rules--and it costs Tesla $650 to $1,000 an hour in each such case to respond, either in court or in arbitration.

Risk managers and adjusters often prefer to take the path of least resistance, which in this example is to refund the money, plus a little toward the 'nuisance value' of punitive damages claims (to satisfy the plaintiff's lawyer), which is far cheaper than shelling out $20,000 defense firm retainers that you never get back, win or lose. After all, we know from the docket in the above case that Tesla apparently is interested in settling such claims despite Musk's bluster.

In short: Tesla may have been banking (literally) for years that plaintiff's lawyers won't figure this math out and be incentivized to begin representing clients demanding refunds in court or in a simple, half-day arbitration (which Tesla pays for).

However, Musk's above, more recent statements about the connection between the success of FSDC and the company's profitability would seem to gesture at a whole new book of business for plaintiff's lawyers to add onto their existing personal injury practices.
 
Let the layers parce out all these written words.

For me, I always took Elon's words as being his opinion, plans and hopes for the technology. He is optimistic and trying to develope this technology. They almost had it with Mobile Eye, but have needed to regroup, refocus and adjust along the way as reality got in the way of hope.

I enjoy what autopilot offers, and have hopes that FSD will someday be the defacto standard on how people get around for personal mobility. Even airline pilots must constantly be thinking about using manual or autopilot in different circumstances. They know that sometimes the computer can do a better job, and other times it needs a seasoned and reasoning pilot to take the controls. Even there, sometimes planes crash.