After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[Cyberax]

Your lawyer is going to have so much fun! I'm looking forward to your lawsuit, if you actually follow through.

I'm actually considering filing it right now.

And for sure, I will never buy another Tesla vehicle or any other Tesla-related product.

 

[macmee]

I just wish I got the beta

 

[Knightshade]

I'm actually considering filing it right now.

And for sure, I will never buy another Tesla vehicle or any other Tesla-related product.

Folks have been "considering" lawsuits for years now, yet nobody ever finds a lawyer who thinks they have any case to file one.

Weird.

 

[gearchruncher]

yet nobody ever finds a lawyer who thinks they have any case to file one.

You love yourself some pedantry, so you might want to rethink the "nobody ever" statement.

There are quite a few lawsuits and arbitrations in the past and currently active around Tesla's autonomy. A quick google search will turn them up.

I also find it very odd that the Tesla supporters here are always daring the skeptics to file a lawsuit, basically saying that it will cost too much to be worth it, instead of convincing them not to. Not a great way to really convince someone that their point of view is wrong and there has been no wrongdoing on Tesla's part.

 

[Knightshade]

You love yourself some pedantry, so you might want to rethink the "nobody ever" statement.

There are quite a few lawsuits and arbitrations in the past and currently active around Tesla's autonomy. A quick google search will turn them up.

Not really, no.

They'll turn up two things:

A settlement with early EAP buyers- a tiny one- that was only because the features took a while to be turned on initially.

And ONE lawsuit in CA- where the main crux is 2 brothers who claim the tesla salesperson told them the car was L5 already.

And they haven't won the suit either- it's in progress.

By all means if you can show me any SUCCESFUL lawsuits over Teslas autonomy promises where Tesla lost and had to pay anyone anything, please do so.

(Disclaimer- I'm speaking of US courts here- though even overseas the only thing I'm aware of is one german court who told tesla they needed to change the wording in their claims, without actually imposing any damages or giving anybody any money for anything).

I also find it very odd that the Tesla supporters here are always daring the skeptics to file a lawsuit, basically saying that it will cost too much to be worth it, instead of convincing them not to. Not a great way to really convince someone that their point of view is wrong and there has been no wrongdoing on Tesla's part.

Pointing out nobody has successfully done what they're talking about doing is intended to make them consider why that is the case.

Reexamine if they really are in the position they think they are.

When that doesn't work, well- I find failure is a great teacher.

For folks convinced they've got a slam dunk lawsuit, asking them to cite what actual laws they think Tesla is in violation of usually just makes them angry- so the most effective alternative to educate them is encourage them to f-around and find out.

 

[gearchruncher]

Not really, no.

They'll turn up two things:

Like you would say to me: So you do agree there have been lawsuits, even ones that have been won. You love the word admit, your post history is full of it, and it appears you just admitted...

So you say no, but then admit yes

Take your own advice

And they haven't won the suit either- it's in progress.

Yep, but your claim was nobody could even find a lawyer to take any case because they were so ridiculous, yet here we are with a case in court represented by a lawyer.

And then the other case was a class action representing tens of thousands of people, with millions paid out, but that barely matters because individual owners didn't get paid that much, so let's just ignore that one.

They'll turn up two things:

Oops, here are 2 more:

Joel M Young v. Tesla Inc :: Albuquerque District Court :: Federal Court Proceeding No. D-1329-CV-202101255

Joel M Young v. Tesla Inc, Court Case No. D-1329-CV-202101255 in the Albuquerque District Court.

www.plainsite.org

Here's a guy that won arbitration: FSD Beta for MCU1 cars

asking them to cite what actual laws they think Tesla is in violation of usually just makes them angry

Kind of like what happens when I ask you how current FSD beta is useful beyond entertainment, and you want to argue about the word "useful"

Pointing out nobody has successfully done what they're talking about

But people have, so that's a lie.

 

[Knightshade]

Like you would say to me: So you do agree there have been lawsuits, even ones that have been won

I literally said the opposite of that.


There's been TWO total in the US I'm aware of.

One was not related to autonomy promises at all

The other has not been won

Do you need medical attention man?

. You love the word admit, your post history is full of it, and it appears you just admitted...

Well, you at least need an eye doctor

YOU are the one who claimed if one just "googles" it they'll find lots of lawsuits- including lots where Tesla lost.

Your claim is factually untrue.

When I pointed that out you didn't, as someone making an honest argument would, either:

Admit they were wrong in claiming that.
or
Provide evidence of these lots of lawsuits Tesla lost.


Instead you....weirdly... tried to claim I was somehow agreeing with you by pointing out your claims aren't true.

Yep, but your claim was nobody could even find a lawyer to take any case because they were so ridiculous, yet here we are with a case in court represented by a lawyer.

Because, as I pointed out, the crux of the case is what a salesperson at a gallery said

Not what Tesla states.

Tesla does not make the claims the gallery guy supposedly did

And then the other case was a class action representing tens of thousands of people, with millions paid out

Primarily to lawyers. Each owner got an amount between $20 and $280.

And that suit was not about autonomy promised

It was about basic L2 features that all got delivered- they just came a few months late

And Tesla didn't lose the suit either- they settled out of court (and for a tiny fraction of what the lawsuit originally asked for)

There you go moving goalposts again though.

Oops, here are 2 more:

Joel M Young v. Tesla Inc :: Albuquerque District Court :: Federal Court Proceeding No. D-1329-CV-202101255

Joel M Young v. Tesla Inc, Court Case No. D-1329-CV-202101255 in the Albuquerque District Court.

www.plainsite.org

That appears to be a guy who filed suit himself in local court.

No lawyer would take his case I guess.

It'd be nice if the evidence you showed ever supported your actual original argument though.

And he just recently filed- nothing has been heard or ruled on.


BTW- watch out for using Plainsite as a source.

The owner (who actually HAS been ruled against, numerous times, in lawsuits involving Tesla and others) has been known to dox Tesla supporters based on captured IP info of those who go there.

Plainsite.org / Think Computer - Data mining the public's personal and sensitive information to harass and stalk people

Aaron Greenspan has lost every single court case. The public just needs to go to Pacer and open an account. The first $15 are free. Then look up Aaron Greenspan, Aaron Jacob Greenspan, Think Computer Corporation and Think Computer Foundation. Aaron Greenspan claims he invented Think Computer...

www.complaintsboard.com

He's one of the big TSLAQ anti-Tesla folks.

Though increasingly I suspect you knew that already

Here's a guy that won arbitration: FSD Beta for MCU1 cars

Here's you being grossly dishonest.

Again.

actual facts of your link

1) No lawyer involved.

2) He wasn't filing the case for failure to deliver FSD. He filed becuase he was promised when he bought that the price would always be higher in the future- and instead Tesla ran a sale.

His "win" was to get back the difference between the sale price, and the higher price he paid earlier.

But people have, so that's a lie.

Except, they haven't.

ZERO of the cases you've cited have had anyone "win" for undelivered autonomy.

There's definitely someone lying though. You can get a good look at him in a mirror.


I'd pass along some advice from Elon you'll doubtless ignore.


When you're digging your own grave... stop digging.

 

[svusa]

I'm willing to give Tesla 1 more year to roll out LEVEL 3 HANDS-FREE FSD at least during highway driving (capability is already provided by other manufactures). I bought my Model 3 way back in 2018, paid an additional 8K to buy the FSD package (EPA + FSD) based on what appears to be a misleading advertisement about their capabilities (based on demo videos) at the time. Fast forward, 2022 - they should have real hands-free FSD on internal roads but I don't think it is going to happen.. I'll be really upset if they even don't have hands-free FSD on highways. Tesla's advertisement and mind-blowing pumping technique to keep the stock price up can't fool real consumers. When you guys are ready to file one, DM me!

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I'm willing to give Tesla 1 more year to roll out LEVEL 3 HANDS-FREE FSD at least during highway driving (capability is already provided by other manufactures).

Which manufacturer has L3 on highway?

 

[svusa]

GM supercruise and now soon FORD. I know die heart fans will argue it is Level 2 . Not even counting Robotaxi services provided by other companies in the US and China that operate on Level 4/5.

Make no mistake, Tesla makes one of the best Level 2 ADAS systems but that's not what most paid for.

 

[Knightshade]

.

I'm willing to give Tesla 1 more year to roll out LEVEL 3 HANDS-FREE FSD at least during highway driving (capability is already provided by other manufactures).

Yeah, not really though.

I bought my Model 3 way back in 2018, paid an additional 8K to buy the FSD package (EPA + FSD) based on what appears to be a misleading advertisement

Tesla does not advertise- so what are you talking about?

Also, 100% of EAPs features have been delivered- a couple years ago now.

So the only thing you paid for, without fully getting what you paid for, is $3000 for FSD.

. Tesla's advertisement and mind-blowing pumping technique to keep the stock price up can't fool real consumers.

TSLA stock value is easily explained without requiring a single dollar in value atrributed to FSD, so this argument doesn't hold up to any analysis.

When you guys are ready to file one, DM me!

You did remember to opt out of the mandatory arbitration clause within 30 days of car purchase, right?

GM supercruise and now soon FORD.

This is flat out false.

Supercruise is:
L2 only.
Not actually for sale anymore.

Fords system is:
Also L2
Can't even handle basic curves on highways as shown on the Sandy Munro video.

I know die heart fans will argue it is Level 2 .

So will Ford and GM- because they also explicitly say they're L2.

So would the SAE since by definition they are L2.

Not even counting Robotaxi services provided by other companies in the US and China that operate on Level 4/5.

Nobody is operating at L5, here or in China.


You seem to believe a lot of things that aren't actually true.

Which manufacturer has L3 on highway?

Honda sold 100 cars that technically offer L3, in a tiny band of speed, on very specific roads, in one specific oveseas country

So, nobody really.

 

[svusa]

.

Yeah, not really though.




Tesla does not advertise- so what are you talking about?

Also, 100% of EAPs features have been delivered- a couple years ago now.

So the only thing you paid for, without fully getting what you paid for, is $3000 for FSD.





TSLA stock value is easily explained without requiring a single dollar in value atrributed to FSD, so this argument doesn't hold up to any analysis.




You did remember to opt out of the mandatory arbitration clause within 30 days of car purchase, right?




This is flat out false.

Supercruise is:
L2 only.
Not actually for sale anymore.

Fords system is:
Also L2
Can't even handle basic curves on highways as shown on the Sandy Munro video.




So will Ford and GM- because they also explicitly say they're L2.

So would the SAE since by definition they are L2.



Nobody is operating at L5, here or in China.


You seem to believe a lot of things that aren't actually true.




Honda sold 100 cars that technically offer L3, in a tiny band of speed, on very specific roads, in one specific oveseas country

So, nobody really.

certainly, you could break the statements the way you like to prove your point - but the point is simple.

I (and many other folks) paid an additional 3K to get FSD package where car is suppose to be able to drive itself without human intervesion and so far we have got nothing!

This beta/theta/gamma/alpha game is good to keep fans engaged but as an investor in the company and owner of one of the early model 3 - I feel like Tesla executives deliberately mislead the public. You can't charge for something that you can't deliver for an indefinite period of time. In the next few years, my car will pass useful life but we would still be talking about some type of beta version of FSD!!!

I have been patient enough and don't mind waiting for another year, but the likelihood of Tesla being able to deliver real FSD is slim. That's just a reality.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

You can't charge for something that you can't deliver for an indefinite period of time.

Not only that: As a CEO of a public company, Elon has repeatedly misrepresented whether Tesla has developed L5 autonomous technology that they can bring over to market in specific timeframes: in investor events, in quarterly earning calls, in marketing materials, and in interviews. I actually believe that Elon optimistically thought that they have solved the problem and did not have intent to fraud investors and customers. Nevertheless, being misguided does not really release one from the responsibility.

 

[AndreP]

Tesla stated in writing on December 14, 2020 that even a "final release" of Autosteer on City Streets will continue being a SAE Level 2 system requiring driver attentiveness and with responsibility of the DDT falling on a human in the driver's seat. The current review and validation stage is being used to refine the feature's operation and customer experience, but the functionality "is expected to remain largely unchanged" in a future, full release to the customer fleet.

 

[EVNow]

And what type of reimbursement would you expect?
By FSD, I mean full hands off autonomy & sleeping in your car. Not beta.

Have you checked with any attorney to see if class action can be initiated / joined because almost all of us have not opted out of mandatory arbitration when buying the car ?

 

[Knightshade]

certainly, you could break the statements the way you like to prove your point

Which I did, because you made multiple claims that are outright untrue.

Rather than admit to those mistakes (assuming they were not intentional) you ignore the corrections and attempt to refocus the discussion elsewhere below:

- but the point is simple.

I (and many other folks) paid an additional 3K to get FSD package where car is suppose to be able to drive itself without human intervesion and so far we have got nothing!

Except this, too, is outright false

$3000 FSD buyers got their first "something" feature wise back in April of 2020, when they pushed SW updates for the car to recognize, and then stop for, stop signs and stop lights.

Something cars without FSD don't do.

Further, those FSD buyers have gotten a driving computer upgrade, which also isn't "nothing"

A very small % of them have now gotten an early beta of the city streets driving code too, which is also not nothing- and more folks are expected to get it over time, and eventually the whole fleet.

This beta/theta/gamma/alpha game is good to keep fans engaged but as an investor in the company and owner of one of the early model 3 - I feel like Tesla executives deliberately mislead the public.

This would require evidence they not only promised you something, but they knew at the time they would not be able to deliver it.

Do you have such evidence?

And did you opt out of the mandatory arbitration clause?

I actually believe that Elon optimistically thought that they have solved the problem and did not have intent to fraud investors and customers. Nevertheless, being misguided does not really release one from the responsibility.

It does change it though.

The legal ramifications of one versus the other are pretty large.

Tesla stated in writing on December 14, 2020 that even a "final release" of Autosteer on City Streets will continue being a SAE Level 2 system requiring driver attentiveness and with responsibility of the DDT falling on a human in the driver's seat.

Yup.

Which would in fact fully deliver what was promised to FSD buyers from about April 2019 through today.

Not to previous buyers though.

And of course when they wrote that in Dec 2020 they never said they weren't working on FUTURE releases that DO go above L2.

In fact they explicitly said they WERE and intended to eventually release those too.

 

[EVNow]

Here is the article about mandatory arbitration & class action. This whole discussion is moot if nobody can join/start a class action suit.

Here is one more.

Forced Arbitration: A Clause for Concern

More companies are taking away a consumer's right to sue, Consumer Reports says, and most of us don’t even know we’ve agreed to forced arbitration when we buy from them.

www.consumerreports.org

Looks to me class action may not be possible ...

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Elon optimistically thought that they have solved the problem

Which is even more misguided when Tesla team internally knew that this is not the case (and surely have tried to convince him on it):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/10/18/shaken-by-hype-self-driving-leaders-adopt-new-strategy-shutting-up/

Tesla stopped promoting the ‘Full Self-Driving’ option for its cars

Elon Musk says it was ‘causing too much confusion’

www.theverge.com

Tesla's head of Autopilot software leaves in restructuring

Tesla’s head of Autopilot software, Stuart Bowers, has left the automaker to work for the venture capital firm Greylock after...

electrek.co

Tesla Autopilot director contradicts Musk’s self-driving timeline

Musk described full autonomy as "basically a solved problem" in 2016.

arstechnica.com

(To me this reads as "if you do not believe we can make it happed, get the f*ck out of the way" type of leadership where the organization eventually accepts that the leader is the only one communicating externally on promises and while they do not believe them to be realistic they just need to their best in trying to fulfill those promises eventually)

 

[AndreP]

Which I did, because you made multiple claims that are outright untrue.

Rather than admit to those mistakes (assuming they were not intentional) you ignore the corrections and attempt to refocus the discussion elsewhere below:


Except this, too, is outright false

$3000 FSD buyers got their first "something" feature wise back in April of 2020, when they pushed SW updates for the car to recognize, and then stop for, stop signs and stop lights.

Something cars without FSD don't do.

Further, those FSD buyers have gotten a driving computer upgrade, which also isn't "nothing"

A very small % of them have now gotten an early beta of the city streets driving code too, which is also not nothing- and more folks are expected to get it over time, and eventually the whole fleet.

This would require evidence they not only promised you something, but they knew at the time they would not be able to deliver it.

Do you have such evidence?

And did you opt out of the mandatory arbitration clause?

It does change it though.

The legal ramifications of one versus the other are pretty large.


Yup.

Which would in fact fully deliver what was promised to FSD buyers from about April 2019 through today.

Not to previous buyers though.

And of course when they wrote that in Dec 2020 they never said they weren't working on FUTURE releases that DO go above L2.

In fact they explicitly said they WERE and intended to eventually release those too.

I think the real question is what future L3+ releases would look like. I have a feeling they will be new modules if you want to call them that, more functionality that will layer on top of L2 City Streets and the other existing features. IMO the concept is that FSD will be a "suite" of different functions, including City Streets, that will be designed to work in concert to achieve L3+ functionality.

I don't think the intent is to continue working on City Streets until it's L5, but that's just my random opinion

 

[svusa]

Do you have such evidence?

They clearly advertised FSD will not require human intervention and the car will be able to navigate itself to the final destination. It was further demonstrated by staged videos of cars navigating through internal streets, parking lots, and highways.

as I said before - if the Beta/Theta/Gamma/Alpha game makes one happy and gullible about Tesla's achievement.. so be it! The fact is they didn't have a solution back then and they still don't have a solution now despite tall claims of FSD/ROBOTAXI etc. to lure buyers into paying an extra 3K while the company was on verge of bankruptcy.

I understand it hurts diehard fans.. as I was once upon a time when standing in a line 6 AM outside the mall to reserve my Model 3. If Tesla delivers FSD by end of next year I have no problem (and will come back to celebrate that I was wrong!) but looking at Beta demos I don't get that feeling at all. They appear not to have a solution nor any evidence that the current software/hardware approach is capable of achieving FSD anytime soon. Level 2 ADAS?? - Yep.. best in the class !!