After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[svusa]

Again, have at it. That's an interesting theory but Tesla is a car company.

It would be insulting to call Tesla a car company… they don’t like it!! I think that’s area one has to explore, it is about delivery of the software. I’m sure as time goes on and they continue to lack final delivery of the software, those who paid for FSD would start raising their voice. Unscientific poll on the top suggests 50% folks believe Tesla shouldn’t be given unlimited time to deliver FSD.

 

[dbldwn02]

I'd have to look at that suit.

Edit: "Judge Anderle is allowing the case to continue based on the fact that the Filippinis have sufficiently stated their allegations of fraudulent behavior, and it sufficiently shows a violation of the Consumer Legal Remedies Act."

FSD claims will likely not meet the fraud definition, and this is what we are arguing about at the core.

By the way, what did you get from it, and are you sure it wasn't a settlement rather than going to trial?

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/goto/post?id=6019275

rxlawdude said:
What part of binding arbitration don't you understand? You have no right to sue, especially class actions.

Class Action Settlement

It was EAP which is a Beta (still is Beta today) and certain features were delayed/missing based on what was advertised on the website, not what was in a purchase agreement. Their initial wording that EAP is "coming" December 2016 was horrible and probably why the judge called fraud. I didn't think it was fraud, but I'm not a judge. Sounds a lot like "Auto Steer on City Streets Coming Late 2019."

The payout was between $20-280 depending on your purchase date. It took two different certified USPS mailings for me to successfully opt-out of the settlement. Those who didn't manually opt out, gave up any claims on any further EAP features and delays. And since EAP and FSD is getting so mish-mashed, I could see them trying to call it all the same thing.

FSD is Beta with no delivered features from when I purchased in May 2017. I still don't have FSD Beta, probably never will have it, since I have MCU1. Why would this case be any different? If it was the same judge presiding, would she not make the same decision to allow a class action?

All I'm saying is, arbitration isn't 100% guaranteed like you say it is. Only a Sith deals in absolutions.

 

[rxlawdude]

After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?


Class Action Settlement

It was EAP which is a Beta (still is Beta today) and certain features were delayed/missing based on what was advertised on the website, not what was in a purchase agreement. Their initial wording that EAP is "coming" December 2016 was horrible and probably why the judge called fraud. I didn't think it was fraud, but I'm not a judge. Sounds a lot like "Auto Steer on City Streets Coming Late 2019."

The payout was between $20-280 depending on your purchase date. It took two different certified USPS mailings for me to successfully opt-out of the settlement. Those who didn't manually opt out, gave up any claims on any further EAP features and delays. And since EAP and FSD is getting so mish-mashed, I could see them trying to call it all the same thing.

FSD is Beta with no delivered features from when I purchased in May 2017. I still don't have FSD Beta, probably never will have it, since I have MCU1. Why would this case be any different? If it was the same judge presiding, would she not make the same decision to allow a class action?

All I'm saying is, arbitration isn't 100% guaranteed like you say it is. Only a Sith deals in absolutions.

Do you understand WHY that case proceeded as a class action? All I'm saying is the law is complex and it's easy for lay people to not understand the rationale for a decision.

So class members got up to $280 to compensate for how much they laid out to purchase EAP?

 

[EVNow]

Looks like for some this is up to debate: Sutton v. David Stanley Chevrolet, Oklahoma Supreme Court.

Sure, if you prove the below. A very different case with a lot of complications.

Plaintiffs alleged they were fraudulently induced into entering the arbitration agreement. The trial court found there was fraudulent inducement and overruled the motion to compel arbitration.

 

[dbldwn02]

Do you understand WHY that case proceeded as a class action? All I'm saying is the law is complex and it's easy for lay people to not understand the rationale for a decision.

Nope, but it did which means it's possible to have a class action even with a binding arbitration agreement. To say you can never class action Tesla is ignoring history. That's all I'm trying to say.

So class members got up to $280 to compensate for how much they laid out to purchase EAP?

Yup...to compensate for delays.

 

[rxlawdude]

Nope, but it did which means it's possible to have a class action even with a binding arbitration agreement. To say you can never class action Tesla is ignoring history. That's all I'm trying to say.


Yup...to compensate for delays.

With every rule, there are exceptions.

Pease tell us which exceptions apply in Tesla's case and why, in your opinion.

 

[mark95476]

Great! You can launch a class-action lawsuit in Switzerland/Europe while Cyberax leads in the US. We'll all be waiting for your updates.

I just want my CHF 7500 back, which I paid in 2019 (bought/ live in Switzerland). In Europe we got next to nothing so far. But the same promise of “2020”, based on which I paid for it. And Tesla still saying you can’t take FSD over to a new car. Would join a class action lawsuit immediately.

 

[svusa]

Nope, but it did which means it's possible to have a class action even with a binding arbitration agreement. To say you can never class action Tesla is ignoring history. That's all I'm trying to say.


Yup...to compensate for delays.

Well… so class action is possible! Now, if we tie this to investor fraud since Tesla’s valuation reflects Robotaxi revenue tied to FSD… company has lot more to be worried about!

Let’s hope they do deliver FSD.

 

[rxlawdude]

Well… so class action is possible! Now, if we tie this to investor fraud since Tesla’s valuation reflects Robotaxi revenue tied to FSD… company has lot more to be worried about!

Let’s hope they do deliver FSD.

When are you hiring a class attorney? That is the question as we go back and forth on whether class action is viable with the arbitration agreement.

 

[svusa]

When are you hiring a class attorney? That is the question as we go back and forth on whether class action is viable with the arbitration agreement.

I have mentioned this before but will go on the record again, I will wait until end of 2022 for Tesla to deliver FSD because.. I want Tesla to be Successful, I don’t want Tesla to fail.

If at that point, FSD still appears like Elon’s illusion then as an owner of Tesla and early investor I feel like I have been duped by the company and will explore my legal rights. I’m sure I will not be the only one seeking legal opinion.

 

[Knightshade]

FSD is Beta with no delivered features from when I purchased in May 2017.

This factually untrue claim has been repeatedly corrected- why do people keep making it?

If you purchased in 2017 you have so far at least received:

A HW upgrade to HW3 for no cost (unless you refused to accept it)
And (assuming you did accept it) the first released feature of original FSD, which is stop light and stop-sign recognition and reaction.


BTW while you guys were arguing about this I got FSDBeta pushed out to my car 2 nights ago

 

[t3sl4drvr]

BTW while you guys were arguing about this I got FSDBeta pushed out to my car 2 nights ago

Congratulations! No wonder you have a different point of view from us peasants who only got mostly useless stop in red lights feature for the $5k (or so) we paid.

 

[Saabstory88]

This factually untrue claim has been repeatedly corrected- why do people keep making it?

If you purchased in 2017 you have so far at least received:

A HW upgrade to HW3 for no cost (unless you refused to accept it)
And (assuming you did accept it) the first released feature of original FSD, which is stop light and stop-sign recognition and reaction.


BTW while you guys were arguing about this I got FSDBeta pushed out to my car 2 nights ago

Stop light recognition was not actually fully delivered to my S. I have tested identical intersections between my Model 3 and Model S, and my S fails to consistently tell the difference between Red and Yellow lights and initiates run-red warning when going through yellow blinkers, even with the pedal being overridden. My Model 3 does not exhibit this behavior at the same intersections at the same time of day. So this is not a case of the feature still being in development, rather that there is a hardware limitation of my vehicle that Tesla does not intent to correct to be able to properly utilize the feature. This is why I have no confidence that Tesla intends to deliver the full FSD package (autosteer on city streets) to my vehicle. I totally get that they could claim that it's my responsibility to be able to upgrade certain features, as with MCU2, however they will not let me order those cameras to be installed, they simply told me that they were not permitted to install the newer cameras in my vehicle.

I have thought about arbitration, but given the lengthy process I don't have the heart to watch other cars continue improve their autopilot functionality every few months while my S never receives another AP functionality update. I hope the next owner has the stomach for the arbitration process to force Tesla to continue to honor the delivery of this feature on cars they sold it with.

 

[Cyberax]

It was EAP which is a Beta (still is Beta today) and certain features were delayed/missing based on what was advertised on the website, not what was in a purchase agreement.

The purchase agreement doesn't say ANYTHING about what is FSD. Really. Go and read it.

So in this case a reasonable person would think that the description put very conspiciously on the official website, that you have to use to buy the product, is the actual promised feature.

 

[Cyberax]

Again, sue. Stop your internet trial if you believe it was false advertising and arbitrate or sue.

OK. I started it.

Seriously. I have. I hired a lawyer and we're preparing the filing.

At my lawyer's advice I filed a service request to enable the FSD features. Once I have a paper trail of Tesla not intending to honor it (as I expect) we're going to go to the court. The service appointment is on Nov 2.

 

[Knightshade]

The purchase agreement doesn't say ANYTHING about what is FSD. Really. Go and read it.

So in this case a reasonable person would think that the description put very conspiciously on the official website, that you have to use to buy the product, is the actual promised feature.

If that's your definition you're going with then you're not owed ANYTHING at the moment.

The CURRENT description during sale lists the features you ALREADY HAVE as the only ones you immediately get... and then city streets as coming "soon"

And makes it clear these are ALL L2 at this time.

So you have $0.00 in damages based on your own "reasonable person" standard.

OK. I started it.

Seriously. I have. I hired a lawyer and we're preparing the filing.

At my lawyer's advice I filed a service request to enable the FSD features. Once I have a paper trail of Tesla not intending to honor it (as I expect) we're going to go to the court. The service appointment is on Nov 2.

IIRC lawyers aren't actually allowed in small claims court in WA state.

If your lawyer didn't mention (or know) that and also didn't notice your own reasonable person standard means you're not owed anything then...good luck

 

[rxlawdude]

OK. I started it.

Seriously. I have. I hired a lawyer and we're preparing the filing.

At my lawyer's advice I filed a service request to enable the FSD features. Once I have a paper trail of Tesla not intending to honor it (as I expect) we're going to go to the court. The service appointment is on Nov 2.

Very cool. Let us know what happens. You have no right to a "limited beta release," but I'm sure your attorney discussed this with you. Right?

 

[dbldwn02]

Very cool. Let us know what happens. You have no right to a "limited beta release," but I'm sure your attorney discussed this with you. Right?

We don't have a right to even try for a safety score then?

Even after Tesla said we'll have early access to software for buying FSD years ago??

Tesla's 'Early Access Program' will reportedly be extended to Full Self-Driving buyers

It appears that Tesla’s Early Access Program will be automatically extended to buyers who purchased Full Self-Driving (FSD) prior to the end of February 2019, at least according to an email from the all-electric car maker to a Model 3 owner shared via Twitter. Early purchase of FSD had...

www.teslarati.com

Tesla has now 2 levels of 'Early Access,' Elon Musk comments on state of V10 software

There’s some confusion around Tesla’s Early Access Program and the automaker’s upcoming new V10 software update. CEO Elon Musk commented...

electrek.co

Tesla keeps a promise to early Full Self-Driving customers—sort of

Tesla made a promise to FSD early adopters that's hard to keep.

arstechnica.com

They even put a cool button in my car to "request advanced software." My advanced software is almost a year old now! Lolz

 

[Tesomega]

We don't have a right to even try for a safety score then?

Even after Tesla said we'll have early access to software for buying FSD years ago??

Tesla's 'Early Access Program' will reportedly be extended to Full Self-Driving buyers

It appears that Tesla’s Early Access Program will be automatically extended to buyers who purchased Full Self-Driving (FSD) prior to the end of February 2019, at least according to an email from the all-electric car maker to a Model 3 owner shared via Twitter. Early purchase of FSD had...

www.teslarati.com

Tesla has now 2 levels of 'Early Access,' Elon Musk comments on state of V10 software

There’s some confusion around Tesla’s Early Access Program and the automaker’s upcoming new V10 software update. CEO Elon Musk commented...

electrek.co

Tesla keeps a promise to early Full Self-Driving customers—sort of

Tesla made a promise to FSD early adopters that's hard to keep.

arstechnica.com

They even put a cool button in my car to "request advanced software." My advanced software is almost a year old now! Lolz

I would be ok, if TESLA came out and said its only available for these (x and y) configurations at this time for the BETA and Not generalize as if it is available for anyone who bought FSD. and it will be available at X date in the future for configurations that are currently not supported.

 

[Cyberax]

If that's your definition you're going with then you're not owed ANYTHING at the moment.

Not quite. It's a reason to get a refund, though.

IIRC lawyers aren't actually allowed in small claims court in WA state.

Lawyers are allowed to help with a filing. I also _can_ file in a regular court if I want to make a big deal out of it, as I opted out of arbitration.

If your lawyer didn't mention (or know) that and also didn't notice your own reasonable person standard means you're not owed anything then...good luck

She's pretty optimistic about the outcome. It's almost slam-dunk: promises to deliver and with multiple public communications from the company with missed estimates ("end of 2020").