No, I do have a right to the "FSD" that was described during my purchase. I.e. full level-5 autonomy. Tesla will have failed to deliver it by Nov 2.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?
- Thread starter Nuclear Fusion
- Start date
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Nobody promised you full L5 during your purchase. (and certainly not with a Nov 2 deadline).
What is currently on the official website says you've already received every available feature today, and that the one remaining one is "coming soon"
Hopefully your lawyer talks you out of using your "a reasonable person would go by what's on the website" argument in court.
Just stating the obvious, but the Web Archive for Tesla.com is a great resource for checking what was marketed at the time of purchase...
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
That's kinda my point. What it says today, which is the definition he appears to use several times, isn't applicable to folks who bought years ago.
Though no version ever promised L5.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Again, what I opine to be the law is what you're arguing. The judge and/or jury will decide if those constitute contractual obligations. I don't believe any of those, including statements from Elon, are binding.We don't have a right to even try for a safety score then?
Even after Tesla said we'll have early access to software for buying FSD years ago??
Tesla's 'Early Access Program' will reportedly be extended to Full Self-Driving buyers
It appears that Tesla’s Early Access Program will be automatically extended to buyers who purchased Full Self-Driving (FSD) prior to the end of February 2019, at least according to an email from the all-electric car maker to a Model 3 owner shared via Twitter. Early purchase of FSD had...www.teslarati.com
Tesla has now 2 levels of 'Early Access,' Elon Musk comments on state of V10 software
There’s some confusion around Tesla’s Early Access Program and the automaker’s upcoming new V10 software update. CEO Elon Musk commented...electrek.co
Tesla keeps a promise to early Full Self-Driving customers—sort of
Tesla made a promise to FSD early adopters that's hard to keep.arstechnica.com
They even put a cool button in my car to "request advanced software." My advanced software is almost a year old now! Lolz
What the F does "
Damages in your situation really don't occur till you sell and lose the $ paid for FSD without receiving it. The caveats about validation and the fact that many governments ARE in fact regulating autonomous vehicles make your damages speculative.
Speculative damages are generally not considered by courts for obvious reasons.
My guess is damages, if any, will be what you paid for FSD. Could Tesla remove FSD from your car in the event they return your fee? Fun awaits!
If you are suing to get SAE L5 delivered to you today, you'll be laughed out of court
rxlawdude
Active Member
Ignore the clear caveats and lack of specificity on your PURCHASE CONTRACT for FSD.
Yeah, no legal issue there.
This actually works in MY favor. There are two ways we're using it:
1. "Reasonable person interpretation" - a normal person would assume that FSD means whatever is described prominently on the freaking main page of the website where they buy a product.
2. Deficient contract - since the contract doesn't actually define what the FSD is, then this clause can be considered deficient. So I'll get my money back since I paid them for nothing.
Tesla actually did promise me just that (in 2018).
Whatever *sugar* is on the CURRENT website has no bearings on what they promised me in 2018.
Bullshit. Damages have occurred already, since Tesla failed to deliver the contracted functionality.
Tesla absolutely can technically remove the FSD and leave only the EAP (for which I paid SEPARATELY during the purchase). I have no problems with that.
I'm suing to get my money back, with reasonable interest. Nothing more.
Once I'm done, I'll publish the claim so that other people can easily file it themselves (in SCC or in arbitration).
**** Tesla and **** its apologists.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Articulate exactly WHAT your damages are at this time. Distinguished from WHAT your damages are if you dispose of your FSD-paid car.
But again, lots of luck. Can't wait to hear the outcome.
Parallel:
You order an iPad on Amazon app and pay with credit card. If they do receive the iPad or it turns out to be something else than you expected, you will ask and receive a full refund.
You order an iPad Mini on Amazon app. It shows that they are out of stock, but expect more soon. You pay with credit card. Amazon only charges the card then they send the iPad. If they are unable to deliver, they apologize and do not charge your card. If the iPad is not received or is not what, you expected will ask and receive a full refund.
You order FSD on Tesla app. You pay with credit card. App days that you have right to cancel for 48h. Tesla takes the payment. CEO tweets that FSD is amazin, but fixing minor issues takes 2 more weeks. You wait and get a new 2 week estimate every 2 weeks. Suddenly, a year or more has passed and even the credit card issuer cannot reverse the charge on card any more.
Problems:
- Money is taken before delivery
- Sliding estimate for delivery
- Return/refund window closes before delivery
You order an iPad on Amazon app and pay with credit card. If they do receive the iPad or it turns out to be something else than you expected, you will ask and receive a full refund.
You order an iPad Mini on Amazon app. It shows that they are out of stock, but expect more soon. You pay with credit card. Amazon only charges the card then they send the iPad. If they are unable to deliver, they apologize and do not charge your card. If the iPad is not received or is not what, you expected will ask and receive a full refund.
You order FSD on Tesla app. You pay with credit card. App days that you have right to cancel for 48h. Tesla takes the payment. CEO tweets that FSD is amazin, but fixing minor issues takes 2 more weeks. You wait and get a new 2 week estimate every 2 weeks. Suddenly, a year or more has passed and even the credit card issuer cannot reverse the charge on card any more.
Problems:
- Money is taken before delivery
- Sliding estimate for delivery
- Return/refund window closes before delivery
$3000 that were paid to Tesla and that they used interest-free for 3 years.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, it's absolutely NOT what they promised you in 2018.
But if you have something (from the actual sales process, not an elon tweet) claiming you'd get L5 please post it.
Then why did you write:
Because what's currently on the official website is pretty clearly an L2 product, and one that delivered all of its promised features bar one (city streets, listed as coming soon)
But again, even in 2018, they never promised L5.
You can make a pretty reasonable argument they promised L4 back then though.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Get your lawyer to describe an articulable claim to you. "Interest-free loan" does not constitute damages. And sure, let's add the bank rate 0.01% annual interest to your damages.
SMH.
This one did: Electric Cars, Solar Panels & Clean Energy Storage | Tesla
They promised autonomous door-to-door navigation. This is L5.
Here you go:
Autopilot
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.
This clearly describes an L5 system.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
0 of your links describe an L5 system.
They describe an L4 system with a large ODD.
YOUR source said:
ALMOST all.
Not all.
That's not necessarily any higher than L4.
rxlawdude
Active Member
It does. If you bought while that statement was posted, you have a better chance of winning a case, especially if you've disposed of the Tesla without ever receiving the "promised" functionality. A better chance doesn't mean a sure-fire win, BTW.This one did: Electric Cars, Solar Panels & Clean Energy Storage | Tesla
They promised autonomous door-to-door navigation. This is L5.
Here you go:
Autopilot
All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.web.archive.org
This clearly describes an L5 system.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Did you read this part ?
Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval.
Get your lawyer to describe an articulable claim to you. "Interest-free loan" does not constitute damages. And sure, let's add the bank rate 0.01% annual interest to your damages.
SMH.
Right, the loan concept isn’t even damages.
First of all, when they did away with Extended AutoPilot as a thing you could buy, the only way you could get summon, autopark, lane change, Nav on AP, stop lights, etc. was to buy the FSD package.
So most of what you got when you paid for FSD, you got right away as that additional currently implemented functionality. This is a simple fact that seems lost on most people complaining.
Second, for the still to come city driving FSD functionality, I see that as essentially a Kickstarter type purchase — I locked in a certain price so that even when it is delivered, and if the price goes up, I have only paid the earlier agreed price. But no promises on timing, or on what future price increase (that I avoided) might be.
There is plenty of stuff from Kickstarter that I am still waiting for — but I knew what I was doing at the time and made a choice to trade current money for the prospect of getting some cool tech at some uncertain time in the future at a set price, regardless of what the price might be when it finally comes out.
Similar threads
