Sorry to hear that the RV experience did not work out for you. It’s true that campsites often need to be booked far in advance. But the planning is worth it…
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Airstream/Thor introduce the eStream concept
- Thread starter ohmman
- Start date
Good for you. They can be a nice get away but I hear more and more full time RVers are getting out of RVing. It's probably tougher to find places to stay with longer rigs but there's more to it. Destination overcrowding, price gouging, and difficult to find good places to stay. They say some investment groups are buying RV parks, reducing RV lot sizes, and even using on-demand pricing.
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Our trailer was 13' long, overall 16'. We were usually the smallest where ever we went, not always. It was a nuCamp 320, included a bathroom (watch your head, no pun, and a shower) Sorta miss it. Sold the Audi Q4 we towed it with. Planning now on hotels in remote places...with power and our adaptors.
YellyYeti
Member
We saw this e-Stream prototype at the Florida RV Supershow this last weekend in Tampa. I didn't think to take pictures, but it looked pretty much the same as in the video. We weren't allowed in the trailer but you could peek through the door, the layout was pretty much the same as any Airstream that size (20'-ish?). The Thor employees there said a few things:
80 kWh battery. From the animation they had looping, it looked like 2 separate battery packs, one in front and one behind the axle. Level 3 charging. I think the ZF prototype had i3 batteries, so maybe 2 of those? They said they are planning to electrify more sizes.
The vehicle needed to be able to tow 5000 lbs, video shows a Model X. I don't remember hearing tongue weight. The trailer coupler had a mechanism, covered by a dust boot, that supposedly detected the pull/push applied to it and tried to keep the equivalent of 200 lbs force by powering the wheels or using regen.
The AC unit was integrated into the bottom of the trailer for aerodynamics. The awning housing was too, it sounded like they put a lot of thought into aerodynamics, which is a very encouraging sign.
Of great interest also was a Class B RV van prototype next to it (also Thor), which they did allow us to go into. It was built on a F-350 chassis, but they wouldn't divulge who the drivetrain/battery was from. They said they are aiming for a 300 mile range. It definitely looked like a non-driveable concept vehicle, but everything on the inside seemed functional. It had camera-based side mirrors on thin stalks, with the displays on the inside of the window on the appropriate side (Cybertruck take note!), and a camera based rear view mirror, again at the traditional location on the windshield. Induction cooktop. There was a narrow skylight running the length of the van, but supposedly there was solar on top too. The AC unit was integrated into the back, so it didn't stick out out the top. The awning housing was streamlined too, and there was some tapering towards the back. They claimed to have reduced drag by 35% over a regular Class B. Again, very encouraging that they are thinking about aerodynamics so much, as we know that is huge for EVs.
Winnebago had their Class B van there also, but it definitely looked like a much weaker offering, but I think you can actually get that one soon. Basically they put an electric drivetrain in one of their existing vans. 82 kWh battery which gave a 125 mile range. The AC unit still sticks out the roof which I am sure hurts the range.
80 kWh battery. From the animation they had looping, it looked like 2 separate battery packs, one in front and one behind the axle. Level 3 charging. I think the ZF prototype had i3 batteries, so maybe 2 of those? They said they are planning to electrify more sizes.
The vehicle needed to be able to tow 5000 lbs, video shows a Model X. I don't remember hearing tongue weight. The trailer coupler had a mechanism, covered by a dust boot, that supposedly detected the pull/push applied to it and tried to keep the equivalent of 200 lbs force by powering the wheels or using regen.
The AC unit was integrated into the bottom of the trailer for aerodynamics. The awning housing was too, it sounded like they put a lot of thought into aerodynamics, which is a very encouraging sign.
Of great interest also was a Class B RV van prototype next to it (also Thor), which they did allow us to go into. It was built on a F-350 chassis, but they wouldn't divulge who the drivetrain/battery was from. They said they are aiming for a 300 mile range. It definitely looked like a non-driveable concept vehicle, but everything on the inside seemed functional. It had camera-based side mirrors on thin stalks, with the displays on the inside of the window on the appropriate side (Cybertruck take note!), and a camera based rear view mirror, again at the traditional location on the windshield. Induction cooktop. There was a narrow skylight running the length of the van, but supposedly there was solar on top too. The AC unit was integrated into the back, so it didn't stick out out the top. The awning housing was streamlined too, and there was some tapering towards the back. They claimed to have reduced drag by 35% over a regular Class B. Again, very encouraging that they are thinking about aerodynamics so much, as we know that is huge for EVs.
Winnebago had their Class B van there also, but it definitely looked like a much weaker offering, but I think you can actually get that one soon. Basically they put an electric drivetrain in one of their existing vans. 82 kWh battery which gave a 125 mile range. The AC unit still sticks out the roof which I am sure hurts the range.
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Thanks for the thorough notes! That definitely sheds a lot more light on the mechanics. I'm especially interested in the coupling mechanism and the 5000 lb number, can't wait to learn more.
Appreciate it.
Thanks for your post! Good info. Did they say anything about what type of heating system was planned?
YellyYeti
Member
They didn't specifically say, but they said no propane, so I am assuming it was a heat pump AC system.
Oh yeah, there was a big red panic button on the trailer arm, I guess just in case of a runaway type situation while remote controlling it. They mentioned the ability to park and plug in the tow vehicle, unhooking the trailer, then using your phone to drive the trailer over to the next stall to charge it. Not possible at Tesla Superchargers right now of course, or I guess even CCS chargers, but hopefully adapters on both/either side will be available soon. When I tried to point out this conundrum to the Thor folks I got a blank stare so I guess they are not necessarily fully versed on Tesla charging. I am sure the engineers in charge are though, given the attention to detail on everything else.
Interesting; maybe if the Bluetooth (I assume) connection between the app on your mobile device fails while using it to move the trailer then one can use that button. But I would design it so that if the trailer loses connection to the app while in motion the trailer motors just stop, as a fail safe.
The battery powered remote that controls the motors that my Alto trailer uses for campsite maneuvering is designed so that you have to continuously press a button on the remote for the motors to run. If you stop pressing the remote button the motors stop. No need for a “panic button”.
An app could be designed the same way. A physical panic button on the eStream suggest to me that the designers have not fully thought through the interface. If the eStream owner loses control of the trailer while parking it should not be necessary to get right next to the trailer — while it is moving! — to stop it.
So does the trailer charging cable use a CCS connector? When Tesla releases its own CCS adaptor, then one could charge both vehicles at a CCS charging station. Of course that is not optimal for Tesla owners.
Probably the Thor salespeople who were present were not EV owners so have no experience with charging any vehicle.
I was under the impression that all test vehicles (ie non-production) needed such a device - I remember seeing several Tesla test vehicles at Hawthorne during the original camera usage development that had such a panic button.
So doesn't necessarily mean it would make it through to production
YellyYeti
Member
I didn't personally lay eyes on a CCS receptacle, but there was a J1772 charging pedestal mockup next to the trailer, and they did tell me it had Level 3 charging, so I would assume the trailer can take CCS fast charging. It would make most sense.
On the big red button, maybe it is a HV battery disconnect instead? Which would also stop the trailer.
Mishakim
Member
The laws of thermodynamics would have something to say about that.
Okay, but the eStream is certainly speed limited when be moved remotely (when not being towed) probably to less than 5mph so it seems like a panic button would not be necessary; it’s not a vehicle like a car that can go much faster in normal operation.
Agreed that it is very likely using CCS for DC charging. Maybe the J1772 charger “mockup” you saw was just for show, as most people attending an RV exhibition would not know what they were looking at.
My guess is that the trailer battery will be able to charge using CCS or from a campsite pedestal using the NEMA 14-50 outlet. The trailer would then come with one cable with adaptors, like a Tesla Mobile Connector.
I’m hoping that Airstream is aware of this thread and is taking notes, as we know Tesla does for some TMC threads. In that spirit, I’d like to offer my eStream wish list; maybe this will come to their attention.
As background information for them, so that it is understood I have some experience towing with an EV, I estimate I have over 15,000 towing miles on my Model X 100D. I tow a Safari Condo “Alto” F1743 that has been extensively modified by covering the roof with flexible solar panels that charge two 300Ah LiFePO batteries connected to a 3,000W inverter. The trailer has the Caravan Mover option that uses two electric motors to drive the wheels at about 1.5mph for campsite maneuvering. It does not provide assistance when towing.
Ever since Dethleffs showed their e.home Coco concept trailer a few years ago I’ve wanted a self-powered trailer that would minimize range loss when towing. I could be persuaded to switch to an eStream, and would like to see it include these features;
— approximately 1000W solar panel max output should be possible based on the eStream roof area shown in the videos
— DC charging, at least 120kW charge rate (250kW would be better), CCS compatible
— AC charging up to 11kW with adaptors for NEMA 14-50, TT-30, 5-15 (J1772 not necessary)
— Charge rate adjustable using the eStream app (iOS and Android), also capable of setting up a charging schedule
— A focus on weight reduction. No wood, minimal use of steel in the chassis. Emphasis on lightweight composites and aluminum. Using that approach, a 21 ft Safari Condo A2124 weighs 2,568 lbs dry. The eStream battery packs and motors/inverter likely weigh at least 1,300 lbs. Try to keep the eStream dry weight below 4,300 lbs.
— Heat pump for HVAC, and a quiet unit unlike what Safari Condo uses which is very noisy. Glad to see the eStream concept does not have a big AC unit on the roof!
— eStream app using Bluetooth controls all the trailer lighting (100% LED and all lights dimmable) also controls the HVAC and shows solar panel output, battery charge level, charging rate, charge history, battery DC output, inverter output, also shows fresh/grey/black water tank levels; instead of having multiple different interfaces and screens inside the trailer try to consolidate everything in the app
— 3000W inverter standard
— dual burner induction cooktop standard
— microwave standard
— 12V DC fridge with separate freezer compartment
— Multiple USB A and C charging ports; 2 A + 2 C on the forward wall and 2 A + 2 C on the aft wall.
— AC outlets fore and aft and at kitchen counter, also exterior outlets on each side.
— openable, screened windows fore and aft, double pane acrylic windows for sound/heat insulation
— ventilation fan for main cabin and for bathroom
— wall mounted hand shower head inside, with quick disconnect on the hose so that it can be connected to hot/cold water supply on exterior, on bathroom side, for outside showering
— single hot/cold mixture controls inside and outside (please no separate hot and cold water controls!)
— spare tire mount below tongue
— storage compartments accessible from the exterior, one on each side
— dedicated exterior storage for up to 20 ft dump hose, I have one of these by Valterra
— optional wireless rear view camera with in-tow vehicle display screen that can clip to the rear view mirror
— optional dual bike rack on tongue capable of supporting up to 100 lbs total (allows for e-bikes)
— optional router and antenna for user-installed SIM card to create local wifi, I have a Cradlepoint router and a Panorama antenna
Thanks for, hopefully, reading this!
Sincerely,
Possible future eStream owner
As background information for them, so that it is understood I have some experience towing with an EV, I estimate I have over 15,000 towing miles on my Model X 100D. I tow a Safari Condo “Alto” F1743 that has been extensively modified by covering the roof with flexible solar panels that charge two 300Ah LiFePO batteries connected to a 3,000W inverter. The trailer has the Caravan Mover option that uses two electric motors to drive the wheels at about 1.5mph for campsite maneuvering. It does not provide assistance when towing.
Ever since Dethleffs showed their e.home Coco concept trailer a few years ago I’ve wanted a self-powered trailer that would minimize range loss when towing. I could be persuaded to switch to an eStream, and would like to see it include these features;
— approximately 1000W solar panel max output should be possible based on the eStream roof area shown in the videos
— DC charging, at least 120kW charge rate (250kW would be better), CCS compatible
— AC charging up to 11kW with adaptors for NEMA 14-50, TT-30, 5-15 (J1772 not necessary)
— Charge rate adjustable using the eStream app (iOS and Android), also capable of setting up a charging schedule
— A focus on weight reduction. No wood, minimal use of steel in the chassis. Emphasis on lightweight composites and aluminum. Using that approach, a 21 ft Safari Condo A2124 weighs 2,568 lbs dry. The eStream battery packs and motors/inverter likely weigh at least 1,300 lbs. Try to keep the eStream dry weight below 4,300 lbs.
— Heat pump for HVAC, and a quiet unit unlike what Safari Condo uses which is very noisy. Glad to see the eStream concept does not have a big AC unit on the roof!
— eStream app using Bluetooth controls all the trailer lighting (100% LED and all lights dimmable) also controls the HVAC and shows solar panel output, battery charge level, charging rate, charge history, battery DC output, inverter output, also shows fresh/grey/black water tank levels; instead of having multiple different interfaces and screens inside the trailer try to consolidate everything in the app
— 3000W inverter standard
— dual burner induction cooktop standard
— microwave standard
— 12V DC fridge with separate freezer compartment
— Multiple USB A and C charging ports; 2 A + 2 C on the forward wall and 2 A + 2 C on the aft wall.
— AC outlets fore and aft and at kitchen counter, also exterior outlets on each side.
— openable, screened windows fore and aft, double pane acrylic windows for sound/heat insulation
— ventilation fan for main cabin and for bathroom
— wall mounted hand shower head inside, with quick disconnect on the hose so that it can be connected to hot/cold water supply on exterior, on bathroom side, for outside showering
— single hot/cold mixture controls inside and outside (please no separate hot and cold water controls!)
— spare tire mount below tongue
— storage compartments accessible from the exterior, one on each side
— dedicated exterior storage for up to 20 ft dump hose, I have one of these by Valterra
— optional wireless rear view camera with in-tow vehicle display screen that can clip to the rear view mirror
— optional dual bike rack on tongue capable of supporting up to 100 lbs total (allows for e-bikes)
— optional router and antenna for user-installed SIM card to create local wifi, I have a Cradlepoint router and a Panorama antenna
Thanks for, hopefully, reading this!
Sincerely,
Possible future eStream owner
Love this idea, and I've posted a few ideas last year that almost match up 100% with the concept.
Last great phase: Hydrogen Fuel Cell. Get to boondock site on EV power. Engage Hydrogen Fuel cell that recharges battery/tow vehicle... get a full tank of potable water as a byproduct and no noise of a generator.
Last great phase: Hydrogen Fuel Cell. Get to boondock site on EV power. Engage Hydrogen Fuel cell that recharges battery/tow vehicle... get a full tank of potable water as a byproduct and no noise of a generator.
Great list, @ecarfan. A number of those have already been confirmed as part of the design by Airstream/Thor but I'd certainly like to see them commit.
A new video is out:
A new video is out:
Yes, I was just hoping to reinforce the importance of the basics like solar panel output and battery capacity as well as some details like mobile app controls, and then add a vote for some items that we don’t have information about yet; focus on lightweight materials, inverter output, HVAC via heat pump, pack charge rate, etc.
Sure would like to see the eStream go into production by the end of this year and have Airstream open up a reservations queue in the near future.
Thanks for posting the link to that new video. It lends support to the idea that the eStream “concept” (a word used repeatedly in the video) will become a real product, though the company representatives were careful to avoid making any commitments.
The only data point I heard in that video is that the trailer is “22 ft” long. Not sure if that includes the full length of the tongue or not; what do you think?
The tongue is actually rather short relative to the size of the trailer, which is not a surprise given that there is no need for space for a propane tank, but there may not be enough space on the tongue to accommodate mounting a bike rack.
There was only one feature shown in that video that I would not use, and that is the Amazon Alexa voice interface, but of course that interface won’t be the only way to access the trailer controls and functions.
Watching that video only makes me want an eStream even more!
It seems like a interesting concept with a lot of potential, and Airstream is typically quite a bit better in design build quality. But, Thor on the other hand is the bottom of the dumpster in ability to design and assemble a coach. Their build and electronics quality is scary to the fact that I am really supprised more of their units have not burned to the ground. I could never trust anything associated with Thor with being able to design a quality battery system and have any sophistication like Tesla has done with their software and batteries. And I think a few here have mentioned pricing is going to be pretty high. For small trailers it might be able to get a little more range, but in my RV I have 100 gallon tank and can get over 800 miles before I have to stop to refuel and I wish I had more fuel onboard.
Eric
Eric
As I’m sure you know, Thor owns Airstream. Airstream has stated that the eStream was developed “with the help” of Thor. I suspect that means financial assistance. Airstream says that the EV technology and the dynamic hitch design used in the eStream is being sourced from the German company ZF Friedrichshafen AG. That company has already put the same technology into a Dethleffs trailer, the e.Home coco, and shown that it works. See https://www.erwinhymergroup.com/en/press/news/dethleffs-ehome-coco
Dethleffs has already shown that the technology dramatically extends towing range. See Towing with an EV: Are electric trailers the future? . An Audi EV with a 218m EPA range rating towed an e.Home coco trailer 240m in the mountains. That is not ”a little more range”, that is in fact more range, apparently due to regen during a long descent. On a flat route the same rig would likely achieve close or equal to the EPA range.
Of course an ICE with a huge fuel tank like yours, costing $400 to fill up, will go farther than an EV on a single charge (and you pay for more per mile in fuel costs). That is not news. I own EVs so that I don’t burn fossil fuel while driving and because they are simply better vehicles in every way compared to the gas cars I used to own.
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