ALL CyberTruck discussion

[MC3OZ]

Thinking about the market for other Cyber variations, I think there are 2 key criteria:-

1. A tough hard wearing exterior has to be absolutely required.
2. Or production volumes need to be small, say less than 2,000 per week.

I classify The Cybertruck as - Pickup - Medium (US size)

Other obvious candidates are:-

• Pickup- Small, Large
• Van - Small, Medium, Large
• Mini-Van
• RV (with solar roof and fold out solar awnings)

For Eco-Box the main criteria is cost and size, look can be customised with some add on plastic panels and the whole thing wrapped.

But my hunch is at say 10K per week or more conventional manufacturing may yield a lower cost than Cyber.
What would be good for a non-cyber econ-box is to somehow eliminate paint.

 

[jerry33]

But my hunch is at say 10K per week or more conventional manufacturing may yield a lower cost than Cyber.

Because the Cyber truck is likely to sell as many as the Y, this is kind of moot.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

If the truck reveal did anything for me, it's to push me towards a Rivian, if I go EV for my next truck. The primary problem with the Tesla truck is that it favors acceleration over range and that bed looks utterly impractical.

I don't want a truck that goes 0-60 in less than 3 seconds. I want a truck that will have a real world range of at least 500 miles. To get that, I'd have to go with the 3 motor version, and that has a base price of $70,000. For that price, I could get a dang Raptor. I just priced out an F150 with the features I'd want (XLT with the FX4 off road package and the reliable, powerful 5.0 V8), and even with most of the options ticked, the price is still under $40,000.

I understand that there will be less maintenance and fuel costs for the EV truck, but there will also be a lot of downsides as well, like difficulty in finding a way to charge the thing when I'm using it as I use any truck (off road and far from any urban area).

For example, my hunting cabin is in central Montana, an area that is mostly forest and ranchland, where I can get gas or diesel in even the smallest little town on the way (e.g., Wilsall). A 500 mile range would be enough for me, but I'm not spending $70,000 on a truck (let alone one a base model one). The one that is comparable in price to an F150 has an ideal range of only 250 miles, and if that is anything like the similar rated range I had for my Model S's, it will end up being closer to 180 miles range, which would get me part way to the cabin and then I'd be stuck.

Maybe once the truck gets closer to production they will resolve some of the deal-killing problems from the prototype, but I don't see a Tesla truck in my future at this point (and unless the Rivian's actual price drops significantly, nor do I see a Rivian in my future).

I felt this way at first, and reacted like the grumpy old man I am, but quickly ordered when I realized i'm getting close to an F250 specs for ~$70K, no rust, no dealing with dealerships, no gas, real off road clearance, so no mods needed... pretty easy decision

 

[MC3OZ]

Because the Cyber truck is likely to sell as many as the Y, this is kind of moot.

In that case it is Cyber for reason 1. tough exterior required.

We don't actually know what production volume point favours traditional manufacturing, or if Cyber is always cheaper....

But traditional manufacturing works best with higher volumes..... my hunch is Cyber can work at any volume,,

 

[bhtooefr]

Taking some things from the Investor thread early:

Can someone for the naive and dummies here, please explain the difference between exoskeleton .vs. body-on-frame?I have an idea of what body on frame means, but what is exoskeleton in this context?

Thank you

Body-on-frame refers to traditional truck construction, which has a "ladder" frame consisting of two fore-aft-running beams connected by cross tubes. It's essential a planar structure, so it has to be heavy to get bending and torsional stiffness. The drivetrain mounts to the ladder frame. The body/passenger compartment is a separate structure that mounts to the ladder frame through rubber isolators, as does the bed, another separate structure. This gives a lot of manufacturing flexibility, because you can always delete the bed and put on something else: a box, a flatbed, whatever. However, the body and the bed don't very effectively reinforce the ladder frame, so everything is relatively heavy.

What Tesla showed is more passenger car "monocoque" structure, where the sheet metal panels form a shell structure, and suspension and drivetrain mount directly to that. It's a lot more structurally efficient. Tesla has taken it a step further than normal. where all panels appear to be structural. For many cars, some of the outer panels (front fenders, etc.) are bolt-ons, and have lesser structural effect.

Some photos to illustrate the point:

The frame (with drivetrain and suspension in place) of a body-on-frame vehicle:

The unibody (again, with drivetrain and suspension) of an original Honda Ridgeline - this is that typical monocoque or unibody structure for passenger cars:

The "exoskeleton" (or you may see "stressed-skin" in other contexts, especially aircraft) of the Cybertruck, this time without drivetrain or suspension):

As you can see, much more of the truck is actually load bearing - all that I see missing as far as body panels go is some trim pieces, the bumpers, and the doors. (The tonneau is almost certainly not in that rendering, but it's also not visible.)

The exoskeleton/stressed-skin design promises to be lighter - that's why it's used in aircraft, because they're so much more weight-sensitive. Historically, that approach took more complex engineering, and was more expensive, though - it appears Tesla's figured out how to make it inexpensive (the simple, flat shapes are a hint - when it's done in aircraft, it's typically done by riveting aluminum together, which is labor-intensive).

 

[nativewolf]

Thinking about the market for other Cyber variations, I think there are 2 key criteria:-

1. A tough hard wearing exterior has to be absolutely required.
2. Or production volumes need to be small, say less than 2,000 per week.

I classify The Cybertruck as - Pickup - Medium (US size)

Other obvious candidates are:-

• Pickup- Small, Large
• Van - Small, Medium, Large
• Mini-Van
• RV (with solar roof and fold out solar awnings)

For Eco-Box the main criteria is cost and size, look can be customised with some add on plastic panels and the whole thing wrapped.

But my hunch is at say 10K per week or more conventional manufacturing may yield a lower cost than Cyber.
What would be good for a non-cyber econ-box is to somehow eliminate paint.

It is a big truck. Basically a full sized pickup crew cab with full length bed big. Think of that f350 crew cab you see construction and utility workers and farmers driving. BIG.

It has crazy ground clearance. Amazing. Great for off road, utility workers, forestry folks, anyone in Agriculture. Great real truck...except I still think it is ugly. I can get over ugly. Big and heavy tow load I needed. It has delivered (barely on towing).

 

[bhtooefr]

It is a big truck. Basically a full sized pickup crew cab with full length bed big. Think of that f350 crew cab you see construction and utility workers and farmers driving. BIG.

It's 231.7" long.

That's basically the same length as a SuperCab 6.5' or SuperCrew 5.5' F-150 or a Crew Cab 5'7" Ram 1500, and identical to a Double Cab Standard Bed or Crew Cab Short Bed Silverado/Sierra 1500.

Pickups are huge nowadays, and crew cab 8' bed is significantly longer.

 

[Eclectic]

I felt this way at first, and reacted like the grumpy old man I am, but quickly ordered when I realized i'm getting close to an F250 specs for ~$70K, no rust, no dealing with dealerships, no gas, real off road clearance, so no mods needed... pretty easy decision

You must be pricing a very loaded F250 with one of the premium packages. An XLT FX4 with the 6.2 V8 and lots of options (XLT Premium, Sync3, etc) is still a bit over $45k in my area. To get to $70k, you're talking about a Platinum (second to highest trim level) with the extra cost diesel engine and pretty much every other available option.

This actually illustrates the great unknown about the Tesla truck...what do you get for the base price, and how much are the extras that most people typically want? All we know is that you will pay another $7k for FSD. Assuming that the truck will be like other Tesla vehicles when it comes to options, you're going to have to add thousands more for options. So in all likelihood, once you have the Tesla truck optioned similar to what you'd get in a $70k F250, the price will be closer to $100k than $70k.

 

[Dr. J]

Trying to repair these colors would be tough. The welds won’t be the same color. I’m thinking a wrap of you want color.

Repairs?! CYBERTRCK don't need no stinkin' repairs!

 

[jerry33]

This actually illustrates the great unknown about the Tesla truck...what do you get for the base price, and how much are the extras that most people typically want? All we know is that you will pay another $7k for FSD. Assuming that the truck will be like other Tesla vehicles when it comes to options, you're going to have to add thousands more for options. So in all likelihood, once you have the Tesla truck optioned similar to what you'd get in a $70k F250, the price will be closer to $100k than $70k.

In the presentation it was said to come standard with the air suspension, the electric outlets, the air compressor. Sure the camping setup, solar roof, ATV are going to be extras and more than $10. But none of those are actually necessary. The only option not in that category is the black skin. No doubt there will be tire and wheel selection as well.

 

[Darkfox021]

You must be pricing a very loaded F250 with one of the premium packages. An XLT FX4 with the 6.2 V8 and lots of options (XLT Premium, Sync3, etc) is still a bit over $45k in my area. To get to $70k, you're talking about a Platinum (second to highest trim level) with the extra cost diesel engine and pretty much every other available option.

This actually illustrates the great unknown about the Tesla truck...what do you get for the base price, and how much are the extras that most people typically want? All we know is that you will pay another $7k for FSD. Assuming that the truck will be like other Tesla vehicles when it comes to options, you're going to have to add thousands more for options. So in all likelihood, once you have the Tesla truck optioned similar to what you'd get in a $70k F250, the price will be closer to $100k than $70k.

It's not really an unknown at all. Things could very well change with the Cybertruck, but what we know about Tesla is that the basic car features stay the same and you get things like AWD and extra battery range as advanced trim levels. Paint, interior color, tires size and FSD are really the only "options".

 

[nativewolf]

You must be pricing a very loaded F250 with one of the premium packages. An XLT FX4 with the 6.2 V8 and lots of options (XLT Premium, Sync3, etc) is still a bit over $45k in my area. To get to $70k, you're talking about a Platinum (second to highest trim level) with the extra cost diesel engine and pretty much every other available option.

This actually illustrates the great unknown about the Tesla truck...what do you get for the base price, and how much are the extras that most people typically want? All we know is that you will pay another $7k for FSD. Assuming that the truck will be like other Tesla vehicles when it comes to options, you're going to have to add thousands more for options. So in all likelihood, once you have the Tesla truck optioned similar to what you'd get in a $70k F250, the price will be closer to $100k than $70k.

If you want to be towing 14k lbs (as I do) a diesel is really what you need. So, once you throw in a 6.7l diesel into the mix the cost of a f250 really pop up there. It's roughly a comp and the day to day costs of a diesel are terrible (everything is expensive for you non diesel truck driving folk-they eat money-oil changes are $$$, def, turbos, diesel is expensive, etc etc).

 

[Eclectic]

In the presentation it was said to come standard with the air suspension, the electric outlets, the air compressor. Sure the camping setup, solar roof, ATV are going to be extras and more than $10. But none of those are actually necessary. The only option not in that category is the black skin. No doubt there will be tire and wheel selection as well.

I placed an order for a P85D the night that it was revealed in October 2014. We were promised all sorts of capabilities at no additional cost that, to this day, are still not available. So given the fact that Musk has a long track record of promising things that aren't delivered, I wouldn't assume that the things he said are standard will actually be standard.

 

[Sudre]

This actually illustrates the great unknown about the Tesla truck...what do you get for the base price, and how much are the extras.

Which extras? Have you priced any vehicle like a Model X? Go do it now.......
Note:
Pick battery/drive train
The extra cost is for paint (there is none) but there may be an up charges for colored stainless.
The extra cost is for wheels.
The extra cost is for interior trim.
The extra cost is for self-driving.

What other extras do you have in mind?

Those extra charges are not that much either altho wheels for a truck might get up there in price quick.

I know with any other truck they "start at" and if you want floor mats you start adding on thousands per option. Once they get your laundry list they then go out and discover they don't have exactly what you want but they have something that is only $5k more but if your wife does a dance for them they can knock 3k off unless it's super Sunday blowout week in which case they already marked it up 15% but they will give you $12k off a truck that is 15k more than what you want...but it's on the lot and you can drive it home today for zero down and zero interest for 12 months on a 6 year loan.

Like the other cars sold by Tesla before, I expect to get the range and drive train of my choice, everything I saw on stage (not the ATV), and a cheaper tire and rim. Other than that I don't know why they would break from their current way of doing things. Heck it may have been on stage with the tires it comes with.

 

[Eclectic]

If you want to be towing 14k lbs (as I do) a diesel is really what you need. So, once you throw in a 6.7l diesel into the mix the cost of a f250 really pop up there. It's roughly a comp and the day to day costs of a diesel are terrible (everything is expensive for you non diesel truck driving folk-they eat money-oil changes are $$$, def, turbos, diesel is expensive, etc etc).

I'm not seeing it, even with the diesel. I just priced one (XLT with the diesel) and it was $50k. That's on par with what the dual motor, which doesn't tow 14k lbs (it says the max is around 10k). To get the capabilities of the F250 diesel, you have to go to the three motor, which is $70k. I'm sure maintenance will be less on the Tesla, but lots of things that break on a Tesla can be VERY expensive to repair (out of warranty).

 

[Xenoilphobe]

I'm not seeing it, even with the diesel. I just priced one (XLT with the diesel) and it was $50k. That's on par with what the dual motor, which doesn't tow 14k lbs (it says the max is around 10k). To get the capabilities of the F250 diesel, you have to go to the three motor, which is $70k. I'm sure maintenance will be less on the Tesla, but lots of things that break on a Tesla can be VERY expensive to repair (out of warranty).

Did you add the cost of fuel/expendibles/time to your price? Also did you subtract $7500 for the Tesla?

Also if you own a business you get this tax rebate--
Trucks and Vans Over 6,000 Pounds

Sec. 280F does not cover these vehicles, therefore there is no limit on regular and bonus depreciation for trucks and vans that do not qualify as passenger or “luxury” automobiles. The Sec. 179 expense deduction for trucks and vans rated at more than 6,000 pounds but not more than 14,000 pounds gross vehicle weight (loaded) is $25,000. And even then, certain trucks and vans in this weight class if the vehicle are not covered by this limitation. For example, if a taxpayer purchases a new large pickup with GVW between 6,000 and 14,000 pounds and the truck has a bed over 6 feet in interior length for $80,000 and uses it 100% for business, the business can claim a deduction for Sec. 179 depreciation and/or bonus depreciation of the full $80,000.

Various websites and tax research list vehicles over 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. The vehicles are also supposed to have this printed on the manufacturer’s label located on the inside edge of the driver’s side door where the door hinges meet the frame.

 

[bhtooefr]

You can't subtract $7500, though, because it's a Tesla, not a Ford.

(...of course, what would happen if SpaceX started making and selling trucks? They'd get a new 200,000. But, that won't happen.)

 

[bhtooefr]

Even then, what are you showing? Either the powertrain output exceeds tire traction or it doesn't.

For equally matched trucks, the winner is the one with better traction control and first mover advantage. This should is Tesla due to direct electric drive vs ICE +automatic, but it still doesn't show anything power wise.

Example: truck 1's driver stands on the brakes. Braking force is usually greater than tire traction so the only way for truck 2 to move truck 1 is if it has greater traction ( mass or tire imbalance) or it gets a running start so that the snap of the tie line plus conservation of momentum breaks truck 1 free. Once the tires lose traction, or you start moving, it's over.

...something that I've seen pointed out: the tug of war wasn't equal. The F-150 was spinning the rear wheels only, and didn't have 4x4 badging.

 

[Eclectic]

Did you add the cost of fuel/expendibles/time to your price? Also did you subtract $7500 for the Tesla?

Also if you own a business you get this tax rebate--
Trucks and Vans Over 6,000 Pounds

Sec. 280F does not cover these vehicles, therefore there is no limit on regular and bonus depreciation for trucks and vans that do not qualify as passenger or “luxury” automobiles. The Sec. 179 expense deduction for trucks and vans rated at more than 6,000 pounds but not more than 14,000 pounds gross vehicle weight (loaded) is $25,000. And even then, certain trucks and vans in this weight class if the vehicle are not covered by this limitation. For example, if a taxpayer purchases a new large pickup with GVW between 6,000 and 14,000 pounds and the truck has a bed over 6 feet in interior length for $80,000 and uses it 100% for business, the business can claim a deduction for Sec. 179 depreciation and/or bonus depreciation of the full $80,000.

Various websites and tax research list vehicles over 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. The vehicles are also supposed to have this printed on the manufacturer’s label located on the inside edge of the driver’s side door where the door hinges meet the frame.

As other have noted, you don't get a $7500 kickback for buying a Tesla anymore. As for the added costs of fueling, I didn't add that, in the same way I wouldn't add in the cost of having a NEMA 14-50 put in for a Tesla purchase, nor would I add in the higher cost of electricity for things like A/C in the house due to EV consumption bumping you up tiers. As for the Sec. 179 subsidy, that's a business deduction and it's available for any truck, not just EVs, that fit the requirements.

 

[Off Shore]

Working on a short driveway for the Island (for now) of Tesla Deprivation. Anybody have the track width of the truck? TIA!