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All or Nothing TACC

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by rhumbliner, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. rhumbliner

    rhumbliner Member

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    Driving from Las Vegas to Jackson, WY I encountered a typical mix of wintry road conditions. It wasn't long before the nosecone iced over to the point where the forward sensors no longer functioned. So, of course AP and TACC were disabled and that's when I first realized that without TACC there is no legacy cruise control ( or should I call this TUCC -- Traffic Unaware Cruise Control? ).

    Once I pulled over to charge, it was easy to knock the ice off but that required me to manually control my speed until that time -- the horror! :) It would have been very nice to have TUCC until that time. I realize this could be a liability issue for Tesla. Even with warnings saying that legacy CC was functioning instead of TACC it would be easy for drivers to mentally lapse into TACC mode and we'd be reading about more accidents being "caused" by AP.

    Still, I for one would like to have TUCC activated when the sensors are disabled.



    IMG_2936.JPG
     
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  2. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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    Maybe they need to add a heater around the radar unit to keep it clear...

    Has anybody with an AP2 car pulled the bumper cover off to see if the radar unit has changed and maybe a heater has been added? (After all they said all of the cameras are heated.)
     
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  3. slappy

    slappy Member

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    Just to clarify, you're saying that when the sensors are disabled you lose "dumb" cruise control (i.e. keep the speed at 65 no matter what happens) like most older cars?
     
  4. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    I know there are some cars where you have both conventional cruise control and adaptive cruise control and can activate either, but I think the potential for confusion and an accident because you have the wrong one on is too great.
     
  5. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    The only dumb thing here would be to want to use cruise control in weather like that.

    This is not a liability for Tesla.

    The road is potentially icy. NO CRUISE CONTROL of any kind please. Don't even try.

    Be safe! Read the car manual.
     
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  6. rhumbliner

    rhumbliner Member

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    Actually, the only dumb thing is making sweeping proclamations with incomplete knowledge. Don't even try.

    In the case I described, the snow showers were widely scattered. So I would drive thru wet sloppy stretches and then back into bright sunshine with dry pavement. i would have loved to have any type of CC for those dry stretches.
     
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  7. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    Makes sense on dry roads.

    I was going by what I see, as the road appears in the picture submitted with the OP: Snow on the ground, wet.

    Cruise in those conditions is a no.
     
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  8. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    I know hey, it sucks that you can't use cruise all the time!

    I dislike that too.
     
  9. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    "Doesn't happen in Fremont" out of sight out of mind for engineering.
     
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  10. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    I'm sorry for the OP, as I agree with ScottM. Wintry driving conditions - even those with "widely scattered snow showers" - are inappropriate for cruise control.
    Can you get away with using it? Yes. 90% and even probably 99% of the time. Emplace that into a figure as large as the number of drivers in your data base, however, and...the result is not good.

    On top of that, the diminished range occurrent with winter driving conditions compels you to consider range-enhancing driving techniques - like not using cruise control.

    As of 2016/2017, then, I see a vehicle that does not provide CC under such circumstances as a win all around.
     
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  11. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    You're arguing about wildly varying conditions imagining in your own mind a specific one, and it just doesn't matter. The only point is that the car WILL disable cruise control entirely due to obstructions regardless of the actual road conditions.

    edit - this fanboi post-rationalization needs to stop. Any topic, any time.
     
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  12. David29

    David29 Member

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    I agree -- a heater would help. Does anyone know if other brands of cars have any heaters or other provisions to help keep their radars or LIDARs clear of snow/ice?
     
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  13. AudubonB

    AudubonB Mild-mannered Moderator Lord Vetinari*

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    • Your shooting is waaaay wide of the mark, kiddo. Not even on the target paper.
    • I have clocked far more hundreds of thousands of miles of hideous driving conditions than anyone on this forum. Full stop. There is no second place. And I've had to deal with scores of First-Responder incidents, with the nearest LEO, and clinic, 100 miles away. Many and, other than substance-related, probably most because the drivers didn't understand the limits of their vehicles - cruise control under inappropriate conditions are an excellent such example.
    • I am just as intensely critical of TM as I am of members discussing poor driving habits and passing blame or criticisms of their car for that.
    • Anyone who is as enamored of terms like "fanboi" and "kool-aid", with which your other posts drip, shows himself to be unworthy of having his posts taken seriously.
    • If you change your mind, and do wish your posts to be taken seriously, use your real name. You'll find there is a great correlation between those posters and level-headed posts.
     
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  14. rhumbliner

    rhumbliner Member

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    You obviously have a wealth of experience with a very specific set of conditions. If I were enacting legislation in Alaska to stop drivers from using certain options in their car, you'd be a good source of information. However, the conditions you describe hardly to apply to the conditions we experience on an average day in southern Utah thus making you unqualified to dictate which options are safe to use.

    Furthermore, it would seem that the 99% rule you mentioned would not only prevent owners from using a lot of options in their automobile, but outlaw a lot of consumer products as well (trampolines and parachutes come to mind). I strongly believe vendors should do the utmost to provide a safe product, but at some point you have to accept the fact that life is full of risks and no product can be made to be 100% foolproof.
     
  15. u00mem9

    u00mem9 Member

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    I don't care how many miles you have in bad conditions, if you can't help yourself from making sweeping statements like this, start your own ninny thread.

    The DRIVER decides when it's appropriate to use the various capabilities of the car. you weren't there, and have no details. The fact that you are that comfortable making judgements and posting what you think the driver should be doing to meet your standards reveals the real issue.

    There are probably some religious groups looking for members to form strong opinions on what other people should be doing...
     
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  16. ev-now

    ev-now Member

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    For me the most interesting thing about this thread (I lost all Driver Assistance a day after getting my 2015 S60) is what it implies for FSD. Seems to me legislation aside, we're a long way from a car which could possibly be left to drive itself anyway.
    The new cameras remain as flawed as the AP1 system in this regard, in that they can easily be obscured by dirt, ice, etc.
    Once we have the basics enabled on AP2 vehicles, it will be interesting to see what can be achieved.

    To the underlying point which developed in this thread - when is automation no longer safe in adverse weather conditions, I wonder how many drivers can honestly say their skills are sufficient for the conditions they drive in, let alone the automated systems they might want to rely on.

    Regarding the assistance features specifically does anyone know the algorithm used to determine when they come back on? As having cleaned my car meticulously it seemed like around 15-20 miles before it announced it could 'take care of itself'. Which makes sense as a driver wanting to rely on an aid is not going to want it going on and off as conditions vary - the 'computer' needs to know the situation has stabilized enough to be relied upon. I foresee many FSD cars sitting on the side of the road refusing to go anywhere unless the driver steps up.
     
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  17. scottm

    scottm Active Member

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    #18 scottm, Dec 14, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
    Good points!

    This is why I'm not keen or even mildly interested in paying for self driving features on a Tesla or any other car. I simply do not have enough good weather and road conditions consistently throughout the year where I live, to make it worthwhile. Roads are dirty, dirt covers optics trying to see the road... dirt obscures road lines the car is trying to track. Or just worn or missing road paint ... is cause for concern. Snow obscures road lines or sometimes mimics road lines. Even raining on a summer day on a well marked road... is a no for basic cruise control, let alone self driving.

    Any decent and self respecting self driving car would disable piloting for much of the year, where I live. If it doesn't do that I think it would be flawed. And most of the roads I drive on have no lines, or are two lane two way traffic.. places I wouldn't dare use self driving as we see it evolving for tomorrow.

    Having a "fair weather good road only" self driving car invites bad human judgement at the edges of acceptable operating conditions. To reduce the error margins of bad human judgement would require a heck of a lot more nanny controls and more "smarts" built into the car. What!? Your black ice detector was dirty... or the anti-hydroplaning monitor was acting up... too bad. The tradeoff being the more the car is capable of arbitrating what is "good conditions" the more you know it is going to do so conservatively, and the "usefulness" of self driving will be diminished because it defeats itself more often.

    We'll all be reminiscing about the good old days of AP1 when we used to get away with all that crazy semi-pilot stuff. It'll be like listening to grandpa "before they even had seat belts..." and took our freedoms away. "Let me break my own neck thank you very much!"

    For me, I just really hope Tesla (1) continues offering improved self driving features, and (2) as a priced option... to displace as much cost out of the car as possible for what I want to buy. At least long enough for me to buy my next car, a model 3. :p


    "car" is believed to originate from the Latin word carrus or carrum ("wheeled vehicle"), or the Middle English word carre (meaning cart, from Old North French)

    "automobile" is a classical compound derived from the Ancient Greek word autós (αὐτός), meaning "self", and the Latin word mobilis, meaning "movable"
    ...

    IMHO we need self driving capable roads before I would want or trust a self driving car. Smart infrastructure first. The road would have embedded sensors that communicate with the network of traffic riding on it. .. The road would control spacing and speed (no accelerator pedal for you!) ... and lane changes... and passing. Pretty much a world like this movie shows, with real automobiles! However, the likelihood of this happening in my lifetime is near zero. And there would be zero joy in it for me if it actually did happen. May as well take a train, as it would no longer be using a car as we knew and loved them. But for my kids' kids... sure, it would be a safer world.
     
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  18. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    L5 autonomy would mean the car can drive better than a human autonomously under ALL conditions. Of course, that does not describe AP 2.0. Salty highway mist will put a quick end to it's autonomous mode.
     
  19. MTOman

    MTOman Member

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    Taken from Wikipedia - SAE automated vehicle classifications:
    • Level 0: Automated system has no vehicle control, but may issue warnings.
    • Level 1: Driver must be ready to take control at any time. Automated system may include features such as Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC), Parking Assistance with automated steering, and Lane Keeping Assistance (LKA) Type II in any combination.
    • Level 2: The driver is obliged to detect objects and events and respond if the automated system fails to respond properly. The automated system executes accelerating, braking, and steering. The automated system can deactivate immediately upon takeover by the driver.
    • Level 3: Within known, limited environments (such as freeways), the driver can safely turn their attention away from driving tasks.
    • Level 4: The automated system can control the vehicle in all but a few environments such as severe weather. The driver must enable the automated system only when it is safe to do so. When enabled, driver attention is not required.
    • Level 5: Other than setting the destination and starting the system, no human intervention is required. The automatic system can drive to any location where it is legal to drive.
    I see nothing in there about driving better than a human, but I can see how AP2 won't be capable of L5 given that definition. In some ways it sounds like L4 except that definition sounds like a driver must be in the car, whereas L5 mentions nothing about a driver. If AP2 can do what Tesla claims that would make it what, a Level 4.5? :D
     

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