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alternators

Discussion in 'Technical' started by jossamer, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. jossamer

    jossamer Member

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    hi, how many 160 amp alternators would it take to power (CHARGE) a tesla model s
     
  2. captain_zap

    captain_zap Electron tamer

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    Well, assuming you mean 12V automotive alternators, they will be able to put out about 2500 watts each (160A*15.6V) so for a decent charge rate of 10 kW you would need four. But then you need an inverter to convert 12V DC to 240V AC at 40 amps. There are two technical problems to overcome; one it that you need to regulate the alternator output without a battery for a load, and another is making sure the alternators will share current equally if they are paralleled.

    On second thought if you put them in series and found a 48 VDC solar inverter, this would likely give the best efficiency.
     
  3. jossamer

    jossamer Member

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    The reason I ask is that I have a design for a car that can accommodate twelve working alternators (13 if I push it) while the car is running. However, I have no way of knowing how the electrical will come together to actually work. In other words the batteries, the alternators, regulators, how it all comes together to power the motor. I believe that so many alternators would provide enough power so that the car doesn't have to stop for a charge. But at this time all I have is the car design and the sense that it can work. Making and testing will be another challenge.
     
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  4. pgiralt

    pgiralt Active Member

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    I'm scared to ask... what is powering the alternators?
     
  5. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Ridiculous. Why don't you get a single 240V alternator instead? It's not like the thing needs to be invented. You can go order it now.
     
  6. captain_zap

    captain_zap Electron tamer

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    The reason that the DC-AC conversion is desirable is to provide a stable line frequency for the Tesla chargers. Most of the higher end generators do this now, with an alternator powering an inverter. It's pretty well documented in this forum that Teslas are finicky and have trouble charging on direct AC generators. Here's an example of one of the new generator-inverters: http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu6500is

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    That being said, it sounds like the OP is working on some sort of an ICE-powered range extender. This, too, has already been invented many times, for example the Chevy Volt and BMW i3.
     
  7. jossamer

    jossamer Member

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    alternators or generators what ever works best

    I can assure you that the design of the car already exist, but the how as you ask, I cannot say until I go to patent and it is granted. I can say that the solution is very simple and it relies on the way the car is designed. I am at this time working at raising funds to make this a reality. Of course for starters I am going to need an electrical engineer for advice. I am very confident that the design of the car will provide the means to accommodate as many electrical generating machine as I have stated before, and once installed they will produce the electricity that each one is rated to produce. But again what I am trying to ascertain is whether or not that many alternators can fully charge a tesla like vehicle while on the go.

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    If I can put my question another way, with all respect, please, is there someone that can say that if I can accommodate as many as twelve electrical generating machine ( alternators, or generators ) on a car being of the most voltage or amps that I can purchase, will this many produce enough electricity to charge the battery pack of an electric car like the tesla while on the go?
     
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  8. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    #8 Johan, Jan 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
    The Model S, AFAIK, cannot take charge while driving (if that's what you mean by "on the go") except for regen.

    With regards to your rephrased question: You can put as many alternators and/or generators in the car (not on I hope) as you can physically make fit. With the proper output (AC up to 22kW) or DC (up to 120 kW if you manage to simulate the Supercharger protocol or some 50 kW if you emulate Chademo protocol and implement the Tesla to Chademo adapter to your design) within Teslas rated voltage range you should be able to charge the car (standing still)
     
  9. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    @jossamer

    To my knowledge, there is no existing support for charging the battery while the vehicle is in motion - with one exception: regenerative braking. If you're tying into that system, then you have that door opened for you already. If not, then something new and interesting has to be meshed with the Tesla design.

    As for power, the display of the Model S on a P85 shows 320 kW as the last tick of the "consumption" (top) half of the power meter to the right of the speedometer. While that value isn't an upper limit for the peak power that you can sometimes squeeze out of a P85, it's a decent metric for some math.

    Does your ((V*A)*generator_count) come near (or above) 320 kW? If yes, then you can support a "floored" P85. If it's at or above 160 kW, you're probably still in pretty good shape.

    I have no idea if any of this helps, but I tried. :)
     
  10. jossamer

    jossamer Member

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    Let me simplify this, Tesla has X number of batteries, so happens at this time I don't know what that number is, but with what ever the number of batteries the car has
    I am trying to get some idea as to how many machines that generate electricity will it take to charge those batteries. By machines I mean regular car alternators of generators. ( Oh, I do mean the generator will be installed in the car not on it. ) For instance one alternator will supply enough electricity to charge a lead acid battery and make all of the accessories operate on a regular gasoline car. With this same logic in mind How will this apply to an electrical car that has multiple batteries.
     
  11. tom66

    tom66 Member

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    The tesla uses 96 series blocks (16 modules of 6 series cells) or 402V peak for the 85kWh model. Each series string is made of many parallel 3.1Ah cells modified by Tesla.
    If the car can use a peak 320kW, then you would need 320 / 2.5 = 128 alternators and considerably more engine power to turn them.
    Realistic cruising rarely exceeds 40kW, so you could size for that.
     
  12. ggr

    ggr Roadster R80 537, SigS P85 29

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    That is simply incorrect. Your invention is protected from the moment the patent is lodged, always assuming that it is a real invention and the patent eventually gets granted. That's why you often see "Patent Pending" on gadgets. In fact in most places now, the patent application is automatically published by the patent office 18 months after it is lodged. Usually people who say this are cranks who think they've invented a perpetual motion machine.
     
  13. John Luciano

    John Luciano Member

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    I was once told there is no free power. U must use energy to create power. Again what will rotate 13 alternators. Rotation of the wheels will cause friction, that will cause energy loss and lower battery range. A battery running a motor turning an alternator that charges a battery will only last so long.
     
  14. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    What world do we live in where all children aren't taught the 3 laws of thermodynamics? Oh nevermind...

    Oh I missed it, looks like the OP is trying to make a perpetual motion machine instead of just a portable charger.. *facepalm*
     
  15. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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  16. tom66

    tom66 Member

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    Energy cannot be created. It can only be transferred between different forms.

    For example, in a petrol ICE, chemical fuel energy is converted into heat energy and kinetic energy.

    In an electric vehicle, electrical energy is stored in a chemical battery, producing heat; the energy is then converted into heat energy and kinetic energy on demand for the wheels.

    In all cases the same energy is output as is input, but some is lost as heat. The total energy output MUST equal the energy input.
     
  17. jossamer

    jossamer Member

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    16 generators can do it.

    you are all thinking in conventional the ways of the times we live in, looking in the wrong direction. What I have is simpler than you think, which is why no one has tried it. I hold three patents for items that are not related to this thread. But I know that patent or not once the cat is out of the box unless you have the resources to make it happen the auto makers have the bucks to circumvent you. So with anything like this you have to cash in first because the first year will get you where you want to go. From then on all the car makers will follow suite. This is history, which is why every year the auto makers do their best to keep next years design as secret as possible. look back at all of the year that cars have been made and you will see that once a popular design is out by the following year all the other companies come out with a similar design, including the tesla which looks like a honda or a hundia or even a mecedes they all look the same. I will do my best to keep this a secret until I can make it a reality. my next step is to raise the money to work on it. crysler came out with a design that looks like a bentley. I learned from my first patent that they all wait like wolves to see if you succeed then they all copy. Back in the 80s there was a company called giro that came out with a styrofoam bicycle helmet. it was a hit. by the following year all the other companies had done the same. the game is you do all the work and take all the chances and if it works they follow in your wake, unless of course they can steal it first. point in case the man who invented the television Filo T. Fonsworth. He had a patent for his invention, but the RCA company kept him so busy in court that the man went broke, even took to drink until he was a broken man. I have a design for a car that can turn as many as 16 generators, and no it does not rely on the breaking system. But again my initial question was, how many generators does it take to power a battery pack that can power one to two ev motors in a vehicle like the tesla.

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    I'm a little confused as to what that video above is about. It looks like a kids toy made of wood. what's the point.
     
  18. Johan

    Johan Took a TSLA bear test. Came back negative.

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    Your original question does not make sense. "How many" you ask. A generator first of all would not "power" a battery but what it may do is charge it. And I believe the correct answer would be: one generator with the proper power output. As you may be aware of "a battery pack that can power one to two ev motors in a vehicle like the tesla" can be charged with anything from 1.5kW to 135kW of power.

    The GIF is a proposed perpetual motions machine attempt, all of which as futile, just like your's if that's what you're proposing.
     
  19. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Please go learn physics. All the Feynman lectures are online for free. You don't even have to read or pay for a college degree. The Feynman Lectures on Physics
     
  20. cwerdna

    cwerdna Active Member

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    #20 cwerdna, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
    Thank you for putting it succinctly.

    Short of telling the OP to learn EVERYTHING about physics, he needs to learn the law of conservation of energy.

    When you use regenerative braking on any EV or hybrid (like the OP is thinking of via "alternators"), you're going to incur losses in the motor/generator windings, in converting the AC to DC to the proper voltage, resistive losses in the battery and wiring, etc. And when energy comes out of the battery, you have all those losses in the other direction.

    Top to it off, even w/o the above, there are mechanical drivetrain losses (e.g. within the gearbox, bearings, etc.) and losses from rolling friction (rolling resistance) and wind resistance. OP can look at Where the Energy Goes: Gasoline Vehicles and Where the Energy Goes: Hybrids for ICEVs.

    All-Electric Vehicles has some efficiency numbers and references. Energy Efficiency of Tesla Electric Vehicles | Tesla Motors may help too.

    EVs and PHEVs already can recapture some of the kinetic energy in regenerative braking and put it back in the battery. But, there are losses, see above.

    If the OP intends to hook up generators/alternators to the wheels or whatever to (re-)capture energy, that slow will down the car and the amount captured will be less than what was used accelerate car up to given speed and maintain its speed. See above as to why.

    This is why we keep referring to the lack of a perpetual motion machine.
     

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