Would you stop quoting Elon, he is not a sales contract. He also said many other things that were completely the opposite and no one had any recourse. He also made vague statements about HW3 and he does not seem to want to put that in writing like so many other things they DO put in writing on the website. You seem to think Elon's tweets are sales contracts and like I keep saying if you don't get what you buy you can call your CC company but they don't take tweets and sound bites as evidence and Tesla will not care unless they are told to do so but Mr. over promise. Rational people here with business experience have good reason not to "be sure". "Correct" on twitter is not a confirmation of a sales contract. There is no rational reason this should not be listed on the order page, period.
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Am at a loss: is the $2k FSD offer going away on Monday?
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Would you stop quoting Elon, he is not a sales contract. He also said many other things that were completely the opposite and no one had any recourse. He also made vague statements about HW3 and he does not seem to want to put that in writing like so many other things they DO put in writing on the website. You seem to think Elon's tweets are sales contracts and like I keep saying if you don't get what you buy you can call your CC company but they don't take tweets and sound bites as evidence and Tesla will not care unless they are told to do so but Mr. over promise. Rational people here with business experience have good reason not to "be sure". "Correct" on twitter is not a confirmation of a sales contract. There is no rational reason this should not be listed on the order page, period.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
No, he's the CEO of the company whose public statements can be considered by a court of law.
Can you cite what other specific promises, conditional on a purchase by consumers, he has made and not kept?
Twitter is writing. So...what?
They really don't. But irrational is gonna irrational I guess.
if Tesla was not intending to put HW3 into cars to enable FSD why would they, apart from making a huge public statement to that effect in the Q3 call, have bothered developing it in the first place?
I would guess that most here don't want to go to court to get their $2K back if they don't get what they were promised on Twitter. You seem to ignore some very important points, things that every reputable and competent business adhere to when making a sale. You continue to imply points I don not make and that are irrelevant to buyers of upgrades. Yes Tesla does want to put HW3 in future cars. What you don't seem to see is there is a reason they are not listing a HW3 upgrade on the order page and this has very clear ramifications to every buyer as well as to the recourse based on the FSD software delivery time. I'm sorry you can't figure out why that is critical for a purchase transaction and what protections it offers they buyer which Tesla can omit with that simple exclusion.
There are ways for Tesla to get out of anything. Not because tgey are lying but because sometimes tgey overpromise or undercharge.
They are being vague because the first versions of FSD may not require hw3.0. They can always say we made a breakthrough that lets us run it in 2.5. If 3.0 is backwards compatible then they don’t need a fork. Playstation 4 plays Playstation 3 games.
Then as FSD developes, they may need to put 3.0 in all cars when the manufacturing cost is lower. All new buyers will pay $7k for it after delivery. That will fund multiple installs. They can easily say to everyone else, you were told $4k. You have 30 days to make that purchase. Otherwise it is $7k. I think they showed they will do what they want with pricing. It always said pricing subject to change at gbe bottom
They are contractually obligated to bring us full self driving (whatever that is). If they can’t do it they can refund people or file for bankruptcy protection to nullify the contract. They could also say autopilot stop recognition ASR is a $3k add on. Everyone who bought FSD is getting a refund or they can convert the $3k to ASR. They would convert and sell so many they would lose nothing.
We have to think if FSD as the extra EAP features plus stop light andsigns at this point. Hopefully it will be more, but thats the current promise.
So I don't get what you guys are arguing about here if you are saying Tesla can do whatever they want regardless? Even if Tesla wrote it on their website in 100 point font that HW3 COMES WITH FSD, they can still "get out of that" with some shenanigans?
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
So that's a "no" to being able to support your own claim and cite what other specific promises, conditional on a purchase by consumers, he has made and not kept?
The reason they're not listing HW3 on the order page is there's no need to.
For those unaware of HW levels it would just cause confusion. For those who ARE aware there's a ton of sources confirming they get HW3 for free as part of buying FSD.
The company, on their official quarterly investor call, available right on their own website, states you get HW3 as a free upgrade with FSD purchase, in addition to numerous consistent and repeated statements direct from the CEO saying same.
If you'd rather cling to some kinda nutball TESLA WILL SECRETLY TRICK US OUT OF UPGRADES FOR NO APPARENT REASON conspiracy theory instead of relying on literally every actual fact available on the topic that's your call I guess.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Nothing about any aspect of their argument makes any sense. Doesn't seem to slow em down when you point examples of this out though.
I they say the hardware is included they really need a timeline for upgrade. However a CC will reverse a charge if you do not receive the goods. If they take Paypal they will refund you as well. Tesla protects themselves from commitments, sad.
Exactly the point obligated with no explicit time line. There is too much at play here, the tech, the regulations etc. I've never kept a vehicle longer than 3 years. I find it next to impossible that changes will move that fast. Go listen to his podcast with Rogan where the auto industry fought seat belts for 10 years even though the evidence was clear it was necessary. Politics haven't changed.
I don't see any case that FSD will be delivered within the warranty timeframe of the vehicle or even by the time I'm ready for a newer and better EV for that matter.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
If you file the claim within 60-120 days, yes. Otherwise not so much.
See here for example-
Chargeback Time Limits Are Now Shorter than Ever - Here's Why
Mastercard Chargeback rules said:
So apparently even the original thing you're asking for won't actually satisfy you.
The world flipped out when a self driving Uber car ran over a homeless lady crossing the middle of a highway. Most human drivers would’ve hit the lady who was clearly making a poor decision. But, now the public thinks that self driving cars are not safe. All it takes is one mistake from a Tesla, even though a human might have made ten mistakes in the same time, and full self driving could be 10 years away. What will probably be passed is an upgrade to autopilit that will make it more self-driving
For me right now it is simple. Is it worth $3,000 for my autopilot to also sometimes recognize lights and signs and have some navigation capability with my hands on the wheel. That is all I am asking myself and expecting. It is a tough decision for me. I am not counting on anything in the near future. We could have an incredible breakthrough and self driving cars revolutionize the world over the next 5 years. Or we could have a few accidents that set us back 10 years.
So the decision is easy. Is it worth the extra money for enhanced enhanced auto pilot?
You should go work for them. Enhanced enhanced auto pilot is all it will ever be.
I do love it on the highway but around town at 25mph I'm perfectly fine stopping at lights and stop signs the old fashioned boring manual way
The car is so fun to drive, I don’t necessarily want to give that up, either. At the point where self driving cars are safer though, they will make it so expensive to buy insurance and self drive that it will eventually be almost impossible. By then though, my Tesla will likely be outdated.
HW3 is the future, HW2/2.5 is basically obsolete. It makes no sense to spend engineering effort to squeeze a little more functionality out of HW2.5 when HW3 will ship in all new cars later this year. This is also why it makes loads of sense to give HW3 to anyone that gets FSD, the enigineering costs of forking the codebase and developing both sides is much more expensive than retrofitting a $500 part with 30 minutes labor.
I’d wager engineering is already almost exclusively working with new hardware rather than existing.
I’d wager engineering is already almost exclusively working with new hardware rather than existing.
Based on the history of promises EM made that never materialized. I'm not trying to convince you of anything - you believe what you choose to believe and I am entitled to the same. You also not compelled by anyone to convince others to change their mind, I'm not sure why you're so hard it this
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I've asked before and nobody seems to have an answer-
When has Elon promised a specific material thing as coming with a purchase and it didn't?
(I don't mean crap like "we will do a demo cross country drive by end of 2017!" or "the 3 might not even have a normal steering wheel!" that's not a specific, substantive, purchase-conditional promise like "We are physically giving you this thing when you give us money")
Battery upgrade/swaps
MCU1 to MCU2 upgrade
From ramp on to ramp off for AP1 cars
Advanced summon that would pick you up in a parking lot
I was told my HW2 was good enough for FSD when I purchased my car, then HW2.5 came out, then 3 appears to be looming up
The staged "FSD" demo video
I'm just a casual visitor here and dont follow ALL Tesla topics, but that's what comes to mind. I'm sure others can list more items that were promised by Musk but never materialized.
MCU1 to MCU2 upgrade
From ramp on to ramp off for AP1 cars
Advanced summon that would pick you up in a parking lot
I was told my HW2 was good enough for FSD when I purchased my car, then HW2.5 came out, then 3 appears to be looming up
The staged "FSD" demo video
I'm just a casual visitor here and dont follow ALL Tesla topics, but that's what comes to mind. I'm sure others can list more items that were promised by Musk but never materialized.
A service rep told someone on here it is 4 hours to swap computers. If that is true then it will likely cost Tesla $200 to install each. The hardware is between $250- $10,000 depending on who you believe. My guess is around $1000 to manufacture because I believe it requires a powerful computer while others think it is simple. The first versions of FSD may not required 3.0. My guess is that Tesla will need a long time to do all the upgrades. Building the first features on 2.5 makes the most business sense while making 3.0 100% backwards compatible.
691 horsepower P85D. That one was actually written on the website. I think they finally delivered on that on with the P100D. You had to buy a new car to get it though.
And @Knightshade wonders why we are skeptical. I actually wasn't promised HW3 at purchase, as I bought before that announcement. So I will consider it a bonus if I do get it. And I will believe I am getting it when they call me to schedule the service.
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