Am I crazy? Considering ditching my Model S for the Ford Focus RS

[Electric700]

Keep the Tesla, get a bike? Maybe like a Zero DS?

After a little time on a bike, cars just don't do it. Partially because they lean the wrong way in turns. Granted, there's the safety thing. Personally I much prefer riding offroad, but that's not available everywhere...

Agreed! At least keep the Tesla, which has up to 7 seats versus the 5 seats standard in a Ford Focus RS. You'd also be setting a good example with the Tesla (zero emissions, excellent safety rating, more room with the frunk plus multiple other reasons).

 

[JST]

Back to the original poster's question--has anyone come across a Focus RS in the wild yet? Are they shipping?

 

[mike77cos]

The Focus RS is a brilliant car, I'm a huge RS fan having 2 RS cosworths myself, I'd love a X as a daily, but I recommend driving the focus it's awesome

 

[Brando]

First a quick disclaimer: Please only post on the thread if you know what a Ford Focus RS is. No one liners please like "It burns gas, eww!"

Here goes... I'm very strongly considering snagging an open allocation this week for a Ford Focus RS. My current car is a 2013 Model S P85. Thoughts?

 

[McRat]

Back to the original poster's question--has anyone come across a Focus RS in the wild yet? Are they shipping?

On 8/20/17 at California Speedway, there was an AutoX in the parking lot. A Focus RS showed up with MFR plates. It ran an incredibly fast time for oem tires. I didn't see any cars run quicker. It ran a 37.x with two people in it. I was racing with my family so I did not break away to talk to the driver. I assume he was very experienced by watching how he ran.

But at the end of the event, I loaded both my teens who were finished racing, and my wife into The Beast, and ran 40.8s in a CT6 wearing All Season tires. A CT6 is about the size of a business limo, and two of us were 6'+ tall. There was a C7 Vette there that ran a best of 42.x sec. Only a few cars were in the 3x.x time region. The CT6's best time with 40.11 solo.

 

[mike77cos]

They are awesome cars, I have it's great grandfather ... Sierra RS Cosworth

 

[jbcarioca]

They are awesome cars, I have it's great grandfather ... Sierra RS Cosworth

OK, nostalgia time. I had a 1965 Lotus Cortina, the great, great, great grandfather I guess. How I adored that car! I had it when the sped limit where I then lived was "reasonable and proper". The car was not at all reasonable but it was certainly proper to go very fast in it! I have driven several iterations, not including the newest RS, but I'd like to. Now if they could do that as a BEV I'd probably buy one immediately.

I posted already in this thread, but without the emotion. Even better than the Lotus Cortina was the Fiat Uno Turbo i.e. of a couple decades later, 1985 I think. Mine was my third car, that I had in the south of France.

The lesson, I think, is that pocket rockets, properly designed, are more fun than almost anything else that is practical. Elon certainly knows that, so within the next few years we'll have a small Tesla with PxxD option that will be just like these others, but better.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Did @mnx go through with this?

:tesla snob alert:

I won't be caught dead in a Ford PoS.

:end tesla snob alert:

 

[AnxietyRanger]

This thread is perfectly understandable to me.

The thing is: BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration. When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it. Clearly nothing can touch an EV on the 0-30, it is just the nature of that beast.

BEVs can also have a good weight distribution due to battery placement and there is immense torque vectoring potential in the use of several small, yet effective motors. But nothing beyond a Rimac Concept One has really made use of this yet to improve actual handling (not just traction or economy) and Model S/X are overall too big and heavy to really benefit from the weight distribution handling-wise... and let's not even get started on the weight distribution of the Roadster.

For some the 0-30 clearly is enough to swing the balance to BEVs permamently. It is a big deal, together with the quietness, smoothness, lack of petrol stations. Sure.

For the rest, it comes down to balance: On one side of the argument for those who want to really drive the cars (e.g. tracks, fun B roads etc.) is that 0-30. If you are drag-racing (or just want great everyday performance starting from the traffic lights), this is very useful stuff as can be witnessed. But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level, they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble.

What this results is the fact that as comfy and high-performance as current BEVs are, they aren't much fun to throw around corners, something that is considered the measure of a sports car beyond the drag-strip obsessed part of the world. Sure, you can accelerate like a bat out of he** away from corners (and maybe you will if you accidentally flicked that Tesla cruise control in the process), but the actual cornering itself is nothing like a good ICE or PHEV sports car or a great hot hatch/sedan can deliver at this time.

For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS. On the BEV side the limited-volume Rimac cars might offer an alternative, but Tesla certainly does not.

 

[EinSV]

This thread is perfectly understandable to me.

The thing is: BEVs as they currently stand have a very specific area where they drive better than ICE - the 0-30 acceleration. When you see a Model X beating a Lamborghini Aventador SV or anything like that, it is on that 0-30 where it beats it. Clearly nothing can touch an EV on the 0-30, it is just the nature of that beast.

BEVs can also have a good weight distribution due to battery placement and there is immense torque vectoring potential in the use of several small, yet effective motors. But nothing beyond a Rimac Concept One has really made use of this yet to improve actual handling (not just traction or economy) and Model S/X are overall too big and heavy to really benefit from the weight distribution handling-wise... and let's not even get started on the weight distribution of the Roadster.

For some the 0-30 clearly is enough to swing the balance to BEVs permamently. It is a big deal, together with the quietness, smoothness, lack of petrol stations. Sure.

For the rest, it comes down to balance: On one side of the argument for those who want to really drive the cars (e.g. tracks, fun B roads etc.) is that 0-30. If you are drag-racing (or just want great everyday performance starting from the traffic lights), this is very useful stuff as can be witnessed. But beyond that the shortcomings start: current BEVs (again perhaps Rimac partially excluded) can't handle spirited driving for very long at their highest performance level, they don't have the handling characteristics or the suspension etc. of true sport cars as things currently stand and there are few options for someone looking for small and nimble.

What this results is the fact that as comfy and high-performance as current BEVs are, they aren't much fun to throw around corners, something that is considered the measure of a sports car beyond the drag-strip obsessed part of the world. Sure, you can accelerate like a bat out of he** away from corners (and maybe you will if you accidentally flicked that Tesla cruise control in the process), but the actual cornering itself is nothing like a good ICE or PHEV sports car or a great hot hatch/sedan can deliver at this time.

For that cornering fun, you are still going to have to look at something like the Focus RS. On the BEV side the limited-volume Rimac cars might offer an alternative, but Tesla certainly does not.

With all respect, the supposed handling advantages of ICE claimed in your post above are incorrect, or at best outdated.

The early reviews of the Model 3's handling compare it favorably to the very best handling ICE sedans. For example, Motor Trend's test director absolutely raved about it:

What’s blanching, though, is the car’s ride and handling. If anybody was expecting a typical boring electric sedan here, nope. The ride is Alfa Giulia (maybe even Quadrifoglio)–firm, and quickly, I’m carving Stunt Road like a Sochi Olympics giant slalomer, micrometering my swipes at the apexes. I glance at Franz—this OK? “Go for it,” he nods. The Model 3 is so unexpected scalpel-like, I’m sputtering for adjectives. The steering ratio is quick, the effort is light (for me), but there’s enough light tremble against your fingers to hear the cornering negotiations between Stunt Road and these 235/40R19 tires (Continental ProContact RX m+s’s). And to mention body roll is to have already said too much about it. Sure, that battery is low, way down under the floor. But unlike the aluminum Model S, the Tesla Model 3 is composed of steel, too, and this car’s glass ceiling can’t be helping the center of gravity’s height. Nearly-nil body roll? Magic, I’m telling you. Magic. And this is the single-motor, rear-wheel-drive starting point. The already boggled mind boggles further at the mention of Dual Motor and Ludicrous.​

The photographers stare, looking bummed they haven’t gotten everything they wanted, but Franz has got to go. He’s heading up to that same key handover in Fremont. Handshakes, then the red car silently whooshes out of sight around a corner, leaving a vacuum that’s instantly filling with questions: Have I ever driven a more startling small sedan? I haven’t. At speed, it gains a laser-alertness I haven’t encountered before. By happenstance, associate road test editor Erick Ayapana had penciled me into a 2.0-liter Alfa Romeo Giulia to get here, and it feels like a wet sponge by comparison.
​

Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 First Drive Review - Motor Trend

Based on the early reviews there is every reason to believe the Model 3 will have a clear performance and handling advantage over comparable ICE vehicles in day-to-day use, with ICE vehicles having the advantage in a quickly shrinking number of corner cases.

 

[realvvk]

Focus RS is just not a good car. If you want a Euro car in this class, you are much better off with a Golf R. Or, even better, a Subaru WRX. Even the Focus ST would be a better choice, as others have said. Just about the only good thing about the RS is the huge discount you are likely to get at the delaer, since nobody buys them.

But MS is not comparable to any of these. MS is all about effortless mobility with very little in the form of actual driver engagement or mechanical precision. It does not reward for driving hard -- the steering has no feel, the suspension is crude, it is way too heavy and there is very little mechanical grip. Just about the only performance-centric attribute is throttle application precision, which is unmatched by any ICE car, no matter the price. Personally, I love it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@EinSV Model 3 is not out yet (for most of us anyway), but I agree it seems like a step in better handling direction. I doubt it really replaces the best sports cars can offer handling-wise yet, but surely it is a step in the right direction.

Nothing I list above is an inherent issue of BEVs, the biggest issue is nobody is making sporty BEVs yet except Rimac. Until someone does, ICEs are what is available for most of us for the (non-drag) track and similar leisure driving...

 

[EinSV]

@EinSV Model 3 is not out yet (for most of us anyway), but I agree it seems like a step in better handling direction. I doubt it really replaces the best sports cars can offer handling-wise yet, but surely it is a step in the right direction.

Nothing I list above is an inherent issue of BEVs, the biggest issue is nobody is making sporty BEVs yet except Rimac. Until someone does, ICEs are what is available for most of us for the (non-drag) track and similar leisure driving...

Perhaps Model 3 seems more "real" to me since I have had at least half a dozen sightings on the roads in the past 3 or 4 weeks, including a white one late yesterday afternoon.

I think Model 3's handling will match up very well with the best performance sedans. It remains to be seen how it will compare to two-seater sports cars that are lighter and have a smaller wheelbase.

 

[McRat]

Focus RS is just not a good car. If you want a Euro car in this class, you are much better off with a Golf R. Or, even better, a Subaru WRX. Even the Focus ST would be a better choice, as others have said. Just about the only good thing about the RS is the huge discount you are likely to get at the delaer, since nobody buys them.

But MS is not comparable to any of these. MS is all about effortless mobility with very little in the form of actual driver engagement or mechanical precision. It does not reward for driving hard -- the steering has no feel, the suspension is crude, it is way too heavy and there is very little mechanical grip. Just about the only performance-centric attribute is throttle application precision, which is unmatched by any ICE car, no matter the price. Personally, I love it.

The Focus on OEM's put over 1 sec on a skilled driver on Hoosiers in an STi. Make your decision from there. I doubt a Golf R would have caught our CT6 on OEM all-weathers.

 

[realvvk]

The Focus on OEM's put over 1 sec on a skilled driver on Hoosiers in an STi. Make your decision from there. I doubt a Golf R would have caught our CT6 on OEM all-weathers.

And what does this have to do with being a good car?

Put a shifter kart on the same course and it will show you who's the boss. Does not mean it is a good car

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Perhaps Model 3 seems more "real" to me since I have had at least half a dozen sightings on the roads in the past 3 or 4 weeks, including a white one late yesterday afternoon.

I think Model 3's handling will match up very well with the best performance sedans. It remains to be seen how it will compare to two-seater sports cars that are lighter and have a smaller wheelbase.

It is way too early to make judgements or comparisons of the driving and handling characteristics of Model 3 IMO. Let alone of track performance or endurance.

But surely it being smaller means a step in the right direction.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And what does this have to do with being a good car?

Put a shifter kart on the same course and it will show you who's the boss. Does not mean it is a good car

I guess what it shows is that people have vastly different priorities when comparing cars.

If you wany an agile sportscar or a luxurious luxobarge, Tesla is not yet for you.

If you want something in between, it may well be.

 

[McRat]

And what does this have to do with being a good car?

Put a shifter kart on the same course and it will show you who's the boss. Does not mean it is a good car

If first place trophies irritate you, then a Golf is a very good car.

EDIT - To clarify there is a family of cars whom have the common trait of competition focus (har). The seats are often unbearable for long drives, the ride quality is similar to a Radio Flyer going down railroad track ties, the turbos are light switches with a delay timer, and amentities like AC can even be omitted. And you pay extra for such torture. But they tend to be very competitive against other cars.

Drive a 2014/2015 Z/28 on city streets for awhile and you'll see what I'm referring to. No credit if it's one of the Wussie Editions with AC and a stereo.

Surprisingly the 2009+ ZR1 was a very comfy car, but still had that track focus when you requested it.

 

[EinSV]

It is way too early to make judgements or comparisons of the driving and handling characteristics of Model 3 IMO. Let alone of track performance or endurance.

But surely it being smaller means a step in the right direction.

It is not too early for the car reviewers to start making comparisons. For example, in the review quoted in my post above, the Motor Trend reviewer referred to the handling of the Alfa Romeo Giulia as "a wet sponge by comparison."

Now, as it happens, Motor Trend also recently compared the handling of the Giulia to the Audi A4, BMW 3-series, Mercedes C class and a slew of other small ICE sports sedans/luxury cars.

It rated the Giulia's handling the best of the bunch:

On the other end of the spectrum is the Alfa. It was the nearly unanimous driver’s favorite, simultaneously a marvelous car to drive fast and still a comfortable commuter. The steering is quick, responsive, and talkative. The chassis responds perfectly to every input while muting every bump. More than any car here, it put the sport in sport sedan without suffering a jarring ride as a trade-off. A close second to the Alfa is the Cadillac, which got the vote from the lone dissenter. But its equally phenomenal chassis and steering were offset by a less luxurious ride quality. Alfa Romeo Giulia vs. BMW 330i vs. Audi A4 vs. Mercedes-Benz C300 vs. Cadillac ATS vs. Jaguar XE vs. Lexus IS 200t vs. Volvo S60
​

It also rated the Giulia its top choice of the comparable ICE sports sedans overall.

​

So Motor Trend's initial review compares the Model 3 favorably to the very best handling ICE car in its class. While more extensive reviews will be done I think it is quite clear already that the Model 3's handling will compare very favorably with the best BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche can offer in the same class.

Also, I think you are looking at the performance benefits of Tesla's EV drivetrain too narrowly. Not only does a Model S have superior acceleration at 0-30 as you mention, but the P100D is far faster than the best performance sedans from Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc. at 0-60, 0-100 and a quarter mile. Its passing acceleration is also much faster.

The responsiveness of an EV drivetrain also makes it much more enjoyable to drive IMO. I have taken my Model S on most of Hwy 1 in California, which is very windy in parts. The S's ability to quickly and effortlessly slow down and speed up when entering curves -- together with sure-footed steering -- makes it a pleasure to drive. I have also driven a Boxster -- known for its handling -- on the same stretches and I preferred the overall drive with the Model S. The ease and responsiveness of the drivetrain in and out of curves trumps the added nimbleness of the smaller car for me.

Frankly, the responsiveness of the EV drivetrain in my Model S has ruined me for ICE.

I think that is why I am struggling with your posts. You keep waxing poetic about ICE sports cars. But to me "ICE sports car" is quickly becoming an anachronism because the drivetrain -- the heart of the car -- just can't compete with a Tesla EV drivetrain.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@EinSV I think my problem with your characterizations is more a relative than an absolute one. I don't disagree with the direction things are moving into.

I disagree with hasty conclusions on the question of when we have reached that. We have a few quick drive comments on Model 3 and already people are suggesting it is superior to all ICE sedans in handling? That's taking it too far IMO.

Reality still today is that there are situations where ICEs are superior to BEVs, spirited driving around corners and track endurance are a few of these. Former is mostly due to lack of BEV choice, latter a technical issue to be solved.

I think your views are too forward-looking - projecting a future yet to happen (but one that I'd agree will happen) into today. Too early for that IMO. That's where we disagree.

I don't mind that BEVs have ruined ICE for you. I understand. But you should also understand some people value different qualities in a car and thus still find better overall solutions in ICE (e.g. for track day or perhaps for that luxobarge often discussed).