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amazing balancing after 145k miles

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How does one do that?
looking at the CAN bus data. I use 'Scan My Tesla' for Android.

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I want to do this on my cars. What's involved in having that ability?

Buying an adapter cable, an ODB bluethooth adapter and plugging in the cable behind the cubby under the main screen. And then you need an app that shows the data. I made my own mini version that actually allows me to close the cubby again. I wish there was an easier way.

The cells on my P85 were well balanced and looked great right up until the pack failed... I wouldn't read too much into it.

Do you know what failed in your battery?
 
Do you know what failed in your battery?

I can't remember now. It happened almost a year ago (and I'm still on a loaner pack, 20k miles later). I'll bring it up around the 200,000 mile mark and ask for my replacement pack then.

Just suddenly said it can't charge any more and to get the car in for service. I had looked at the battery stats a few months prior and they were perfect. Even mentioned it to the SC and they took at look and said they were surprised how good the battery looked given the miles on the car... then blam... pack takes a poop a few months down the road.
 
Buying an adapter cable, an ODB bluethooth adapter and plugging in the cable behind the cubby under the main screen. And then you need an app that shows the data. I made my own mini version that actually allows me to close the cubby again. I wish there was an easier way.



Do you happen to have links for those parts? The one Id like to get data for is a mid '15 85D and a early 2016 MX. Same cables?
 
This morning I got in my 2014 S 85 with 145k miles on it. I checked the difference between the highest and lowest cell and it was 0.002 Volt. That's a difference of 0.05%. I think that's absolutely amazing and shows how well Tesla's BMS works. Amazing!

For comparison vs the worst BMS on the market my 2012 Leaf has 68k miles and the difference on mine is 0.019 while at 52% SOC the difference would be smaller if it were charged to 100%. I think the smallest difference I've seen is 0.005 at full.

So cell balancing is at least twice as good on a Tesla if not more than twice as good.
 
This morning I got in my 2014 S 85 with 145k miles on it. I checked the difference between the highest and lowest cell and it was 0.002 Volt. That's a difference of 0.05%. I think that's absolutely amazing and shows how well Tesla's BMS works. Amazing!
With that kind of balance, what is your 100% charge in rated miles, and how much degradation has your battery seen? Do you think the cell balancing technique of charging to 100% and driving to 0% is really helpful? I am somewhat skeptical that it really works, at least not in all cases.
 
This morning I got in my 2014 S 85 with 145k miles on it. I checked the difference between the highest and lowest cell and it was 0.002 Volt. That's a difference of 0.05%. I think that's absolutely amazing and shows how well Tesla's BMS works. Amazing!
This is fairly meaningless because you are looking at the balance in a high charge state, which is where the balancing circuit is active. That circuit uses feedback to level the cell voltages. Since the Voltage readings are reported from the same measurements used in the feedback, they are guaranteed to always be extremely close, even if the measurements themselves have larger errors, or the cells have widely differing characteristics.

If you look at the variation when the cell's are reading ~3.85V that might actually tell you something about the state of your battery pack, because the balancing circuit can't operate there.
 
This is fairly meaningless because you are looking at the balance in a high charge state, which is where the balancing circuit is active. That circuit uses feedback to level the cell voltages. Since the Voltage readings are reported from the same measurements used in the feedback, they are guaranteed to always be extremely close, even if the measurements themselves have larger errors, or the cells have widely differing characteristics.

If you look at the variation when the cell's are reading ~3.85V that might actually tell you something about the state of your battery pack, because the balancing circuit can't operate there.

According to Jason Hughes, who has opened many Tesla batteries and figured out a lot of what's going on inside the battery, balancing is triggered at a high state of charge (93% or above). Once it is triggered the BMS boards controlling each module work independent of state of charge, driving or charging or idling. Basically, the BMS figures out how much the modules are apart and then sends a command to bleed off x amount of energy. The BMS boards then do that completely independent of what else is going on with the battery. That means it's completely irrelevant what state of charge the battery is at. The resistors that bleed off the excess energy of the highest modules are rather small, so this process can take hours, maybe even days. That is what Jason has been finding. If that is true, and given his level of expertise I have no doubt about it, then it makes no difference what level of charge the battery is. Seeing a 2 mV difference is a meaningful measure.
 
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With that kind of balance, what is your 100% charge in rated miles, and how much degradation has your battery seen? Do you think the cell balancing technique of charging to 100% and driving to 0% is really helpful? I am somewhat skeptical that it really works, at least not in all cases.

I had a few charges to 100% and also discharged to almost zero a few times on a recent road trip. As fas as we know, the cell imbalances are measured at 93% state of charge (or higher). Once measured, the BMS bleeds off the highest modules/groups to match the lowest ones (and thus even them all out). The bleeding resistors are small so this process takes a while (up to days). Once they are active, they just keep finishing their marching orders regardless of what else is happening. It doesn't matter if you charge or discharge or just let the car idle.

Charging to 100% and then discharging to almost zero helps to recalibrate the range estimate algorithm. It is hard to determine the exact state of charge of a battery. There is no direct way to measure it. There is an algorithm trying to estimate the current state of charge and available capacity at any given moment. Especially when partially charging and discharging (what we do in our normal use of our cars) the estimate can get less accurate over time. The errors just add up. If you charge to 100% and then discharge to near zero and then charge to 100% again, the BMS gets a much more accurate measurement of the total capacity and the range estimate gets recalibrated. This is not my theory, this is what Tesla said in an email. So sometimes after a few full cycles you might see the rated range estimate go up or down. Usually it goes up because the algorithm is more on the conservative side. People then think balancing brought back the 'lost miles', but it really is just the range estimate that got recalibrated. The range was never lost.

After monitoring my battery for years now there was never a moment where my pack was so much out of balance that it would account for lost range.
 
After monitoring my battery for years now there was never a moment where my pack was so much out of balance that it would account for lost range.
Ok, so what ever degradation you have, it is due to the natural degradation of the battery. So I am curious what your 100% rated miles value is now compared to the 265 miles it was rated when new.
 
According to Jason Hughes, who has opened many Tesla batteries and figured out a lot of what's going on inside the battery, balancing is triggered at a high state of charge (93% or above). Once it is triggered the BMS boards controlling each module work independent of state of charge, driving or charging or idling. Basically, the BMS figures out how much the modules are apart and then sends a command to bleed off x amount of energy. The BMS boards then do that completely independent of what else is going on with the battery. That means it's completely irrelevant what state of charge the battery is at. The resistors that bleed off the excess energy of the highest modules are rather small, so this process can take hours, maybe even days. That is what Jason has been finding. If that is true, and given his level of expertise I have no doubt about it, then it makes no difference what level of charge the battery is. Seeing a 2 mV difference is a meaningful measure.
I'll trust what Jason says, but I'm not convinced that you've understood him correctly. Can you point to where he's said this for me? The reason I question it is that if it's true that it continuously balances regardless of state of charge, then what is the purpose of "triggering" at a high state of charge since it is always possible to measure the cell voltages at any time?

In other charge balancing systems that I've worked with (all much smaller packs with no more than 15 series cells, but the principal is the same), the purpose of balancing at a high state of charge is because the charging currents are necessarily small then and you can use practical, small, loads for the balancing while charging and have the pack balanced when you've finished charging. But they only do this balancing while charging close to the upper limit of capacity, just as the Tesla is reported to be doing.

If you "bleed energy" over days then you are wasting stored energy in the cells which is inefficient compared to having not put the energy in the cell in the first place. You certainly cannot allow any cell to be overcharged, and then bled down later to match its lesser-charged peers, so you are bleeding energy from cells that aren't even fully charged, rather than allowing under-charged cells to get more fully charged. That makes little sense. Instead it is normal to simply bypass the charging of the more fully charged cells (with a load that doesn't discharge the cell, but instead provides a path for the charging current to the other series elements to flow through the load instead of the cell) while allowing the lesser charged cells to catch up.
 
I'll trust what Jason says, but I'm not convinced that you've understood him correctly. Can you point to where he's said this for me? The reason I question it is that if it's true that it continuously balances regardless of state of charge, then what is the purpose of "triggering" at a high state of charge since it is always possible to measure the cell voltages at any time?

In other charge balancing systems that I've worked with (all much smaller packs with no more than 15 series cells, but the principal is the same), the purpose of balancing at a high state of charge is because the charging currents are necessarily small then and you can use practical, small, loads for the balancing while charging and have the pack balanced when you've finished charging. But they only do this balancing while charging close to the upper limit of capacity, just as the Tesla is reported to be doing.

If you "bleed energy" over days then you are wasting stored energy in the cells which is inefficient compared to having not put the energy in the cell in the first place. You certainly cannot allow any cell to be overcharged, and then bled down later to match its lesser-charged peers, so you are bleeding energy from cells that aren't even fully charged, rather than allowing under-charged cells to get more fully charged. That makes little sense. Instead it is normal to simply bypass the charging of the more fully charged cells (with a load that doesn't discharge the cell, but instead provides a path for the charging current to the other series elements to flow through the load instead of the cell) while allowing the lesser charged cells to catch up.

I understand that most Lithium Ion chargers do balancing at the end the of the charge process and they do it by charging up the lower ones to bring them up to the same level as the higher ones. The main difference is that in most applications, the whole balancing controller and most of the BMS is done in the charger so the battery pack itself is can be made very simple and less expensive. In an EV this doesn't apply.

There are good reasons to bleed off higher cells rather than charging lower ones. If you want to charge up the lower ones, you need to be connected to a power source for much longer. The charger would run at a very low (=inefficient) power level for hours. It also means it would only work if the car is connected to power. ANd worst of all, it would only work if the battery is fully charged and then you have to keep it at that level for an extended time. We all know that's not good for a Lithium battery.

Bleeding off the higher cells has the advantage that is can be done independent of a power source and independent of any other battery operation. It also means you can do it at a slow rate as long as you want. In other words, it only needs a relatively short time to determine how much difference there is, then it runs independently. The amount of energy that is bled off to balance is insignificant. It's a very small price to pay for a much bigger advantage compared to the alternative.

look here:
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack

Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
 
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