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An interesting EAP fail.

daniel

Active Member
May 7, 2009
4,800
3,612
Kihei, HI
In north Kihei, HI (on Maui) the Maui Veterans Highway coming down from Kahului becomes the Pi'ilani Highway heading down towards Wailea at the point where North Kihei Road meets the highway. From North Kihei Road you can turn left onto Maui Veterans Highway or right onto Pi'ilani Highway. (Or you could go straight onto a short, minor road that keeps the Pi'ilani Highway name.)

From North Kihei Road two lanes turn left onto Pi'ilani Highway, and there is a solid white line dividing those two lanes all the way through the turn, so that if you are driving south on Maui Veterans Highway in the right-hand lane and want to continue straight onto Pi'ilani Highway, you cross that solid white line.

My Model 3 with EAP running firmware version 2019.16.2 fails at this point. It sees the solid white line, which is intended to keep drivers making the right-hand turn in their respective lanes, and it thinks that this line marks the right-hand side of my lane and tries to swerve suddenly into the left lane.

This is not an issue of the computer analyzing the image from the camera. It's an issue of understanding who that line is intended for. No human driver would ever think that it was intended for the cars coming off of the Maui Veterans Highway. It is obvious (to a human) that it is marking the right-hand-turn lanes for cars coming off North Kihei Road.

It's an indication to me that we are further from a driverless car than Elon thinks we are. There are so many things of this general sort, where it's not a matter of seeing where other cars are, or of seeing obstacles, pedestrians, etc., but a matter of comprehending what's expected in an unusual configuration. I think we'll have a driverless car in 10 to 15 years, and it will be HW5 or HW6, not HW3 that has the capacity to run the necessary software.

I disengage EAP when I come to that spot now. I also disengage it when there's a bicyclist or pedestrian close to my lane. They expect cars to give them a bit of room, and EAP wants to keep smack-dap in the center of the lane no matter what. I am not going to test what the car would actually do when there's a cyclist right on the lane line because there's no room for them next to the road. I check for traffic and then drive half in the on-coming lane. Note: I love EAP. I just don't think Tesla is anywhere as close to FSD as Elon seems to believe. Even with the next-generation computer. That computer's grandchild, maybe.
 

J X 3

Member
Oct 19, 2016
197
145
Earth
Tesla uses machine learning and the entire geometry of the scene to navigate. The fact that it is obvious to you , makes this easy, it would be much harder if it wasn't obvious. It's not so much about time, it's about data and the fleet is already sizable. The basic navigation is not even the hard part, awareness well beyond that is what will make the difference. The car isn't even supposed to handle intersections yet.

Edit: as far as I can tell, this is the location Google Maps
 
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groovidad

Living the Dream!
Oct 19, 2018
615
460
Ewa Beach, HI
Yeah, I’ve had similar issues. I find it easier to not use EAP here. On the Mainland, I’m thinking I would use it much more. Traffic here runs about 16-20 hrs/day and having total control, at all times, is safer, IMO.
 

C141medic

Active Member
Apr 9, 2016
1,714
1,496
New Jersey
I went on a 300 mile trip earlier in the week and NOAP went “berserk” on two occasions. I want to preface this with I love AP and it has its uses but also unfortunately its limitations. I agree with the OP that FSD is a ways off especially when it makes these type of errors. First instance for me was on the NJTPK (Southbound) around Newark area where the turnpike splits into car and truck lanes. I was in the car lane and even though the lane markings were clearly visible, it almost drove me right down the middle of the dividing road. Of course, I had my hands on the wheel and intervened. The second incident was on Rt. 195 westbound approaching the entrance for Rt. 295. I was on NOAP and the car did the same thing. Wanted to go right down the middle. Pic below:

upload_2019-6-8_20-37-51.jpeg


Not sure if other’s have experienced this with similar roads but you definitely learn when you may have to intervene with autopilot. That being said, I’m looking forward to upcoming FSD features but also realistically know that FSD without any human intervention is a ways off.
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,584
15,574
NC
In north Kihei, HI (on Maui) the Maui Veterans Highway coming down from Kahului becomes the Pi'ilani Highway heading down towards Wailea at the point where North Kihei Road meets the highway. From North Kihei Road you can turn left onto Maui Veterans Highway or right onto Pi'ilani Highway. (Or you could go straight onto a short, minor road that keeps the Pi'ilani Highway name.)


Assuming the google maps locations posted by others is correct, EAP isn't supposed to work there

It's a 4 way intersection with stoplights and crosswalks.


Why do people keep being shocked when the system doesn't work in a location the manual explicitly tells you it's not intended to work?
 

daniel

Active Member
May 7, 2009
4,800
3,612
Kihei, HI
Tesla uses machine learning and the entire geometry of the scene to navigate. The fact that it is obvious to you , makes this easy, it would be much harder if it wasn't obvious. It's not so much about time, it's about data and the fleet is already sizable. The basic navigation is not even the hard part, awareness well beyond that is what will make the difference. The car isn't even supposed to handle intersections yet.

Edit: as far as I can tell, this is the location Google Maps

Yes that's it. Saghost's image is the same. Except that I was thinking it was the right-turning lanes off of N. Kihei road, whereas it's actually the lane lines marking the lanes for traffic northbound on Pi'ilani Highway turning left onto N. Kihei Road. Just shows how lousy my memory is. Or the fact that when it happened I was too busy taking over driving from the car to look carefully at what these lines were that my car was trying to follow. The point was that to a human driver it's obvious where my lane goes, but the car is just following the rules of its program, which tell it to follow lane markings.

Yeah, I’ve had similar issues. I find it easier to not use EAP here. On the Mainland, I’m thinking I would use it much more. Traffic here runs about 16-20 hrs/day and having total control, at all times, is safer, IMO.

Hi neighbor! There's only two islands between us. Lana'i and Moloka'i. EAP definitely requires attention. I still find it useful and probably use it well over half the time. A big problem with it here is that autosteer won't work faster than 5 mph over the posted limit, and there are roads here that have ridiculously low posted limits where nobody drives slower than 10 mph over the limit and the flow of traffic is often 15 mph over. At those times I don't use EAP because I'd be a nuisance. But for example on South Kihei Road, which is narrow with a lot of bicycles and pedestrians, I find it useful to use EAP sometimes because I can then devote more attention to watching for walkers and bicycles, and take over when I see one. On that road I'm liable to go into and out of EAP six or eight times in a 10-minute drive.
 

daniel

Active Member
May 7, 2009
4,800
3,612
Kihei, HI
Assuming the google maps locations posted by others is correct, EAP isn't supposed to work there

It's a 4 way intersection with stoplights and crosswalks.

Why do people keep being shocked when the system doesn't work in a location the manual explicitly tells you it's not intended to work?

Driving straight-on through intersections does work. This one is a rare exception which shows how far EAP is from FSD. Your argument that it's not supposed to work there only makes my argument stronger. I am not shocked that it does not work on this one. I am actually amazed that it does as much as it does. It's ability to function on South Kihei Road is truly incredible. But I'm pointing out that they have not yet even begun to address the kinds of things a driverless car will have to handle.

And for new owners especially, I was to stress how essential it is to be alert and ready to take over any time you're using AP or EAP. It still makes driving more relaxing and less stressful, but constant alertness is critical.
 

Saghost

Well-Known Member
Oct 9, 2013
8,217
7,007
Delaware
But I'm pointing out that they have not yet even begun to address the kinds of things a driverless car will have to handle.

They haven't addressed it in the software they shipped to cars that don't have the processors to handle the full FSD stack yet in support of operation that isn't expected to include success in that regime.

Maybe they've already addressed it in the prototype FSD software in the demo cars; maybe they haven't. I don't think we can draw any conclusions about that from the behavior of eAP in pre AP3 cars today.
 
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daniel

Active Member
May 7, 2009
4,800
3,612
Kihei, HI
"Maybe" isn't really much of an argument. Maybe the next president of the U.S. will be a scientist and a poet. But I'm not holding my breath. (Except when I freedive, but that's irrelevant.) HW3 will be able to process more image data faster and should be able to begin to improve on obstacle recognition and maybe accident avoidance. There's no evidence or any reason to believe that it will be able to implement the sort of "common sense" judgement that humans use in cases such as the line markings on that intersection. This is the sort of thing that's most difficult for computer programs, and Elon's time line for it is unreasonably optimistic. I don't fault him for that. That outrageous optimism may be a significant part of what enables him to embark on such ambitious projects as Tesla and SpaceX. I support that by having bought two of his cars and some Tesla stock and some solar bonds.

But I do not believe his time line for driverless cars. I believe he will accomplish it. But I think it will take him ten to fifteen years, not the twelve or eighteen months he seems to think.
 

groovidad

Living the Dream!
Oct 19, 2018
615
460
Ewa Beach, HI
Yes that's it. Saghost's image is the same. Except that I was thinking it was the right-turning lanes off of N. Kihei road, whereas it's actually the lane lines marking the lanes for traffic northbound on Pi'ilani Highway turning left onto N. Kihei Road. Just shows how lousy my memory is. Or the fact that when it happened I was too busy taking over driving from the car to look carefully at what these lines were that my car was trying to follow. The point was that to a human driver it's obvious where my lane goes, but the car is just following the rules of its program, which tell it to follow lane markings.



Hi neighbor! There's only two islands between us. Lana'i and Moloka'i. EAP definitely requires attention. I still find it useful and probably use it well over half the time. A big problem with it here is that autosteer won't work faster than 5 mph over the posted limit, and there are roads here that have ridiculously low posted limits where nobody drives slower than 10 mph over the limit and the flow of traffic is often 15 mph over. At those times I don't use EAP because I'd be a nuisance. But for example on South Kihei Road, which is narrow with a lot of bicycles and pedestrians, I find it useful to use EAP sometimes because I can then devote more attention to watching for walkers and bicycles, and take over when I see one. On that road I'm liable to go into and out of EAP six or eight times in a 10-minute drive.
Aloha, braddah! There’s no doubt, you’re blessed with less tragic, less lanes. Go for it! If I was living there, I’d definitely use it more! Obviously the issue is recognition. In time, this will be corrected........
 

trm2

Active Member
Apr 3, 2016
1,050
1,640
CLE
It seems to me that AP is just like me whenever I drive that exact spot. Well, I don’t get confused or anything, but I’m tired after a long flight and can’t wait to get to the Grand Wailea. :D (Yes, overpriced, but I’m a Hilton guy)
 

srg1972

New Member
Dec 16, 2018
3
0
OH
It seems to me that AP is just like me whenever I drive that exact spot. Well, I don’t get confused or anything, but I’m tired after a long flight and can’t wait to get to the Grand Wailea. :D (Yes, overpriced, but I’m a Hilton guy)

Greetings from another (apologies in advance if I'm wrong on this) Tesla owner from Cleveland that vacations in Hawaii. Just took that long flight yesterday to the BI to visit my parents. I was so excited to see two Teslas in the KOA airport parking lot when we got in yesterday. Wondering how many more we'll see on the trip? Having to drive an ICE SUV rental is the worst part of this trip - amazing what I now just 'expect' to be there (I miss hill-hold, walk away off/lock, regeneration, and so much more already)! I would absolutely love to be driving my Model3 here and would relish the opportunity to see how (and if) it would handle a Mauna Kea summit.

Aloha to all the other Tesla supporters in Hawaii as well. And apologies for going OT.
 

timk225

Active Member
Mar 24, 2016
2,029
1,057
Pittsburgh
I recently watched the 2-1/2 hour HW3 introduction video, and heard Elon talking about how soon we'd have autonomy and robotaxis, and I wish Elon would dial back his plans a bit. Add a year or two to whatever he says. Even if V.10 autopilot is a huge step forward, it's going to be this 1% that is the issue.

We may get to 99% self driving in a year or two, but it's these 1% of edge cases that are going to hold things up a lot. Robotaxis before 2021? I don't think so.

Maybe we have to have a new standard of paint lines on highways for self driving cars. Something the computer specifically looks for and follows no matter what other lines are there. Paint manufacturers will love that!

Imagine what we will say to kids in 20-30 years. "When I was your age we had to drive the car ourselves!".
 
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daniel

Active Member
May 7, 2009
4,800
3,612
Kihei, HI
It seems to me that AP is just like me whenever I drive that exact spot. Well, I don’t get confused or anything, but I’m tired after a long flight and can’t wait to get to the Grand Wailea. :D (Yes, overpriced, but I’m a Hilton guy)

I stayed at the Four Seasons once, and at the Fairmont 2 or 3 times. Then I discovered (should have done my research before my first trip!) that a condo with a full kitchen and a much shorter walk to the beach, is a LOT cheaper. My next visit I called a vacation rental company and got a front row condo in Wailea Elua (which is THE premier condo complex in Wailea) for much less money than the Fairmont. Much shorter walk to the beach, and I had a full kitchen. My next visit I was here for this past winter, which opened up "long-term" condo rental, and for a LOT less money than Wailea Elua I was in Ke Ali'i Ocean Villas, three bedrooms, a nice ocean view, and of course a full kitchen. 5 minutes from the beach instead of 2, but much less money. (Six months minimum lease. But there are plenty of short-term rentals where that's not the case.) I stayed at resorts because I wanted to be close to the beach. But the condos were closer to the beach, for less money, with more space, and a kitchen. Now I own a house and live here. :D

A resort is good if you want to eat all your meals in expensive restaurants, have daily maid service, and have waiters bring you drinks with umbrellas by the pool. Get a condo if you want to be able to prepare your own food and use the BIG pool with turtles and fishes in it, and whales in winter. Check out Rentals Maui or one of the other agencies to get a condo and have more space for way less money than a resort.
 
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trm2

Active Member
Apr 3, 2016
1,050
1,640
CLE
I stayed at the Four Seasons once, and at the Fairmont 2 or 3 times. Then I discovered (should have done my research before my first trip!) that a condo with a full kitchen and a much shorter walk to the beach, is a LOT cheaper. My next visit I called a vacation rental company and got a front row condo in Wailea Elua (which is THE premier condo complex in Wailea) for much less money than the Fairmont. Much shorter walk to the beach, and I had a full kitchen. My next visit I was here for this past winter, which opened up "long-term" condo rental, and for a LOT less money than Wailea Elua I was in Ke Ali'i Ocean Villas, three bedrooms, a nice ocean view, and of course a full kitchen. 5 minutes from the beach instead of 2, but much less money. (Six months minimum lease. But there are plenty of short-term rentals where that's not the case.) I stayed at resorts because I wanted to be close to the beach. But the condos were closer to the beach, for less money, with more space, and a kitchen. Now I own a house and live here. :D

A resort is good if you want to eat all your meals in expensive restaurants, have daily maid service, and have waiters bring you drinks with umbrellas by the pool. Get a condo if you want to be able to prepare your own food and use the BIG pool with turtles and fishes in it, and whales in winter. Check out Rentals Maui or one of the other agencies to get a condo and have more space for way less money than a resort.
All true, but when you have a massive amount of Hilton points and stay free, the resort kind of wins. Which reminds me, I haven’t been to Hawaii yet this year. Excuse me while I go look for flights:)
 

Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
11,584
15,574
NC
Your argument that it's not supposed to work there only makes my argument stronger.

It really doesn't.

Your argument was calling something a "fail" when it's not supposed to work there by design



I am not shocked that it does not work on this one. I am actually amazed that it does as much as it does. It's ability to function on South Kihei Road is truly incredible. But I'm pointing out that they have not yet even begun to address the kinds of things a driverless car will have to handle.

And never will with EAP.

Because EAP is not FSD, and is not intended to ever be

EAP is for use on divided, limited-access, highways. That's all it's ever intended to do.

So using it to judge how "far" they are from navigating situations EAP explicitly isn't intended for makes no sense.

It'd be like saying dumb cruise control on a base model Tesla (no AP) can't handle slowing down in stop and go traffic, therefore TACC can't ever work right.

They're different feature sets and the limits of one tell you little to nothing about the other.


FSD (the one that works at intersections) isn't even going to be using the same computer, let alone the same software, as what your car is running right now.
 
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groovidad

Living the Dream!
Oct 19, 2018
615
460
Ewa Beach, HI
It really doesn't.

Your argument was calling something a "fail" when it's not supposed to work there by design





And never will with EAP.

Because EAP is not FSD, and is not intended to ever be

EAP is for use on divided, limited-access, highways. That's all it's ever intended to do.

So using it to judge how "far" they are from navigating situations EAP explicitly isn't intended for makes no sense.

It'd be like saying dumb cruise control on a base model Tesla (no AP) can't handle slowing down in stop and go traffic, therefore TACC can't ever work right.

They're different feature sets and the limits of one tell you little to nothing about the other.


FSD (the one that works at intersections) isn't even going to be using the same computer, let alone the same software, as what your car is running right now.
Unquestionably, work needs to be performed. We are several years off from a more dependable product. Folks talking of their experiences are just that. Let’s see where time takes us............
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
11,584
15,574
NC
Unquestionably, work needs to be performed. We are several years off from a more dependable product.

Again- using the current EAP system to make any assumptions at all on how well a different solution running different software on different hardware will do for being dependable is nonsensical.
 
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