Sure I can, it's still a perfectly accurate measure of actual time/speed thru a quarter mile. You are correct that the Bolt is limited electronically before it hits the quarter. But it is just slightly before, and has near zero impact on the 14.9 seconds or so quarter mile time - much less than a tenth of a second.
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Another discussion about EVs as they compare to ICEVs
- Thread starter Yggdrasill
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- Electric Vehicles
Sure I can, it's still a perfectly accurate measure of actual time/speed thru a quarter mile. You are correct that the Bolt is limited electronically before it hits the quarter. But it is just slightly before, and has near zero impact on the 14.9 seconds or so quarter mile time - much less than a tenth of a second.
Hello, ecarfan. My EV charging experience is excellent! I've had the Bolt for 3 months now. I plug it in every night, and it's charged to 87% of capacity every morning as I leave for my commute. Once or twice I've forgotten to plug in, but my daily mileage is only around 100, so I can do two days without anxiety if need be.
I do think charging at home is better than the weekly stop at the corner gas station. Though it sounds like you are far more traumatized by the smell of gasoline than I am - really, it's no big deal.
I have no intention of driving long distance in an EV, though it might be fun to try it once just for the experience when my Model 3 arrives. Perhaps we'll have to get you out on Bundesautobahn #7 to really assess the extent of the 'charging problem'.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
We have to agree to disagree.
Especially two things are just plain wrong for many people:
1) It is only fueled at home if you are lucky enough to have a house or another way of charging over night. Most people who live in rented flats have no such possibility.
2) Significantly less vehicle maintenance might be true, but maintenance costs are still much higher. I don't know how Tesla manages to get people into paying those insane amounts for servicing if their cars supposedly require so little maintenance. I paid less for almost 13 years of service at my official local BMW dealership than what 2 years of service for a Model S, X (and probably 3 as well) costs. Insane.
And while you are right that there are technical differences between ICEs and BEVs (of course there are, I didn't deny any of that). fundamentally they are both just cars. I stand by that.
Both get you from A to B.
Both need fuel, be it from a flammable tank or a battery (thank god batteries never catch fire
).Both can have insane acceleration (but don't have to. Try a Leaf against an S4 as mentioned above by someone else).
Both can have great economy well to wheel or bad economy. BEVs are only clean if fueled by electricity from renewables. If fueled by the standard energy mix, they can be even worse than fuel efficient ICEs. Enough tests around to prove that.
I won't go on as I see we won't ever agree on the above. Doesn't matter anyway, because I don't even contest that BEVs have many advantages. Why do you think did I reserve a Model 3 in the first place? Why did I buy TSLA stock years ago? Why do I try to sell all my friends and colleagues on BEVs?
I have nothing against BEVs, quite the opposite. But I want to keep a balanced and realistic view and not turn into a fanboy who is oblivious to the still existing many negative aspects.
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Yeah, reality is owning a Tesla is pretty expensive. That annual non-maintenance sure is a lot of money for nothing, let alone if they actually have to do something.
And all this is forgetting the fact that around the 8-10 year mark, you will have to pay for a new battery if you keep the car. That's a cool additional 1000-2000 dollars of cost more for each year of ownership...
There are many positives to BEVs. Maintenance can be one of them, but sadly it hasn't really happened yet. The cars are to scarce and the batteries are too expensive still for that.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
That is definitely a very important point. At least if you have a house and the means to afford a solar roof. But in any case, unless you are a Texan or Arabian oil baron, you really can't produce your own propellant for an ICE. (Don't get started about Biofuel though
)The only useful tidbit in a 1/4 mile run value when you are dealing with cars that are capable of wheelspin on launch, is the trap speed. This tells you about average acceleration the car is capable of even if you roast them off the line. Both the '98 LS and Bolt will. But the trap speed is pointless for the Bolt. Best guess is the Bolt will trap 1-2 mph higher than the Lexus if allowed.
One very interesting M/T data point is the 60-80mph split. No wheelspin, both cars are already at WOT accelerating through 60mph.
Assuming a 150lb driver, the LS400 with it's 13.93 lb / hp has a massive advantage over the Bolt's 18.49 lb / hp. The Lexus sports a 33% better power to weight ratio. Not a fair fight at all. It would be like comparing an LS400 to 1998 Corvette convertible and expecting the LS to win. (no, it would be a crime against humanity to line those two up).
LS400 needs 4.3 seconds to climb up to an 80mph passing speed whereas the less aerodynamic Bolt needs 3.9 seconds to reach 80 mph from a floored 60mph. As before, this is in perfect conditions at sea level on a cool day. If it were uphill, hot weather, more passenger weight, or higher altitude it would increase the difference.
The question is why does that happen with EVs? Especially since they lack transmission gears. It is due to 'area under the curve'. A 200HP EV has more of it. More average HP than a 290HP gas engine does.
Imagine what 315 electric horseys is like in the Tesla MS60, which STILL has worse PTW than the LS400. It runs 13.6 @ 103.5mph vs the LS400's 14.8 @ 97mph. Quicker at every split.
That is definitely a very important point. At least if you have a house and the means to afford a solar roof. But in any case, unless you are a Texan or Arabian oil baron, you really can't produce your own propellant for an ICE. (Don't get started about Biofuel though
No, that's just silly. In fact it's not important at all. We have trade and currency so that there is no need to produce what we consume. I don't produce my own energy, food, clothing, or shelter. Anyone who does produce all he consumes is living in dire poverty.
@phil0909 makes an interesting philosophical point.
Very few, if any, are really producing their own electricity. Most have purchased a solar powerplant and had it installed on their property - and are using that to produce electricity.
Then a general comment:
That said, what I find unfortunate is that these conversations tend to polarize. An entire subthread of discussing is BEV a paradigm shift or possibly even a fundamentally different car - or whatever semantics - stemmed from this polarization.
BEVs aren't black of white, any more than ICE are. There are various pros and cons and ways to look at the issues. This thread has made the likes of @AustinPowers sound like anti-BEV, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Very few, if any, are really producing their own electricity. Most have purchased a solar powerplant and had it installed on their property - and are using that to produce electricity.
Then a general comment:
That said, what I find unfortunate is that these conversations tend to polarize. An entire subthread of discussing is BEV a paradigm shift or possibly even a fundamentally different car - or whatever semantics - stemmed from this polarization.
BEVs aren't black of white, any more than ICE are. There are various pros and cons and ways to look at the issues. This thread has made the likes of @AustinPowers sound like anti-BEV, when nothing could be further from the truth.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I meant it really is an important advantage of BEVs that one can quite easily "produce" ones own "fuel" (as in "harness the sun's energy" as AnxietyRanger correctly pointed out), and for free too, after the installation cost has been amortised.
I am glad your EV charging experience has been "excellent". Because upthread you said, quote: "The charging/range issue really is a nuisance".Hello, ecarfan. My EV charging experience is excellent! I've had the Bolt for 3 months now. I plug it in every night, and it's charged to 87% of capacity every morning as I leave for my commute. Once or twice I've forgotten to plug in, but my daily mileage is only around 100, so I can do two days without anxiety if need be.
I do think charging at home is better than the weekly stop at the corner gas station. Though it sounds like you are far more traumatized by the smell of gasoline than I am - really, it's no big deal.
I have no intention of driving long distance in an EV, though it might be fun to try it once just for the experience when my Model 3 arrives. Perhaps we'll have to get you out on Bundesautobahn #7 to really assess the extent of the 'charging problem'.
So you have never driven "long distance in an EV". My point was that I have, many many times over the past 3+ years, I found it went very well. Which is why I do not agree that "The charging/range issue really is a nuisance".
Regarding driving an EV on the autobahn, it is true that going 100+ mph in an EV runs down the battery very fast. It also burns up gasoline very quickly and is an extremely inefficient way to travel. Given that only a minuscule fraction of all roads are like the autobahn your comment about them isn't relevant to this discussion.
Note: I would not say that I am "traumatized" by the smell of gasoline. I do find it objectionable, however, and it is a known carcinogen, as are ICE exhaust emissions.
In all fairness, driving long-range in Germany - expectations-wise - is different.
It's like U.S. and guns.
Different.
Really don't see the point of splitting all these hairs. Bottom line remains - my ICEV performs pretty darn similar to my EV - better in some measures, worse in others, but pretty close throughout.
And remember, the Lexus is nineteen years old. It's literally from the time of the GM EV-1. Obviously, that's not a 'fair fight'.
Certainly electric has its advantages, and Teslas are cool and really fast. I'm looking forward to owning one. I do expect ICEVs will die out eventually. But it is clear that ICEVs remain quite satisfactory for enormous numbers of people, and will compete reasonably well for many years (decades?) to come.
You state that as if it is fact. It is not.
The available data on Tesla battery degradation shows that if you were to drive a Tesla 15K miles a year (which is about average in the US), after 10 years the battery will lose about 10 to 12% of its original capacity. At that point the battery will obviously still be very usable. For example, a 10 year old S85 would still have over 200 miles of range at a full charge. For the many people with a less than 100 mile daily commute there would be no need to get a new battery, the car would be quite useful as is.
Perhaps, perhaps.
We shall see.
But the general point remains: replacing the battery is a huge, huge maintenance cost.
You seem awfully defensive, ecarfan. In fact, Teslas on the autobahn WAS under discussion in this very thread, brought up by another poster. So I don't know where you get off declaring it irrelevant.
It's pretty simple - EVs work great if you drive locally and can charge at home, like I do. If you drive long distances at highway speeds, EV charging becomes a nuisance. Just ask those Germans, limping along at 70 mph in their Teslas.
You seem awfully defensive, ecarfan. In fact, Teslas on the autobahn WAS under discussion in this very thread, brought up by another poster. So I don't know where you get off declaring it irrelevant.
It's pretty simple - EVs work great if you drive locally and can charge at home, like I do. If you drive long distances at highway speeds, EV charging becomes a nuisance. Just ask those Germans, limping along at 70 mph in their Teslas.
In Germany, if you are driving long-range 70 mph and taking charging stops every couple of hours for 45 minutes that is, I don't know, akin to buying a gun and shooting yourself in the U.S.
In Germany, you are supposed to hurdle along at 150 mph, feeling the fazination, taking 3 minute petrol breaks every so often and, über alles, being effizient.
The reality is, German industry may not be able to kill the EV, but as things currently stand, the autobahnen certainly do. The Model S is a very nice car, but you just can't drive it German style. That's why nobody does.
Yep! Replacing an engine or transmission on an ICE is too, and they seem to be similar frequencies. The major difference is that a battery swap takes a couple hours at worst. Replacing transmission on my BMW M3 took a month, no loaner, but it was under warranty.
Nobody is denying the fact that ICE comes with massive maintenance costs.
The argument was, BEV does not.
So far due to volumes, BEVs are often more expensive the maintain than ICEs. And we haven't really gotten into battery replacement ages yet...
"Nobody does" ? People do, but 600 miles EPA range is the minimum for typical German inter-city travel, or West Texas for that matter.
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