Another fatal autopilot crash - China

[Gizmotoy]

Oh awesome, that's good to hear actually. More pressure to improve for Tesla is nothing but a good thing to me. That wasn't the case I think until pretty recently, right?
I remember looking at Volvo a couple of years ago and the salespeople were really downplaying the safety package as if it didn't really work or was annoying and most people turned it off. I found that.... odd.. Maybe they just didn't have any on the lot.

I looked at the manual for the latest E-class, which is indeed brand new for this year. Could be previous iterations didn't support it. I'd take the time to look, but I don't care that much.

Volvo's safety packages are expensive (see: LIDAR), so don't have high uptake. Thus, you're probably correct, they wanted to sell a car and didn't have many or any on the lot with it. We had to search for a month or so to find a used one with all the safety options. We didn't see a point in buying a Volvo without all the safety stuff. That's like their one thing.

The other day I was backing out of the driveway and it started flashing the brake immediately alert on the HUD. There was a child on a bicycle barreling down the sidewalk about 10-15' away that I couldn't see because of the trees, but the rear-facing 3/4 radar could. If I hadn't reacted, it would have stopped the car. So impressed with it. Hope Tesla catches up soon. (In Tesla's defense, the Autosteering option on the Volvo is very poor)

 

[luca]

I looked at the manual for the latest E-class, which is indeed brand new for this year. Could be previous iterations didn't support it. I'd take the time to look, but I don't care that much.

Volvo's safety packages are expensive (see: LIDAR), so don't have high uptake. Thus, you're probably correct, they wanted to sell a car and didn't have many or any on the lot with it. We had to search for a month or so to find a used one with all the safety options. We didn't see a point in buying a Volvo without all the safety stuff. That's like their one thing.

The other day I was backing out of the driveway and it started flashing the brake immediately alert on the HUD. There was a child on a bicycle barreling down the sidewalk about 10-15' away that I couldn't see because of the trees, but the rear-facing 3/4 radar could. If I hadn't reacted, it would have stopped the car. So impressed with it. Hope Tesla catches up soon.

volve CANNOT handle this too

even at slow speed low ground clearance object, it can not stop

Chinese accident happened at 75-80mph

volve's AEB is much worse than tesla

TEST under 10mph

TEST under 20mph

 

[Zybd1201]

Only you're making an assumption based off of information you couldn't possibly know... Mainly whether or not Tesla knows if AP was engaged and according to them they don't and the family isn't cooperating.

Perhaps you should understand the accusation you're making before you make it... Just a suggestion...

Jeff

I know exactly what I am saying and I am obviously speaking my opinion and concern given the facts.

In August, Reuters reported that Tesla removed a Chinese term for “self-driving” from its China website after a driver in Beijing had a nonfatal crash while Autopilot was engaged. That driver later complained that the carmaker had oversold Autopilot’s capability.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/b...volved-autopilot-government-tv-says.html?_r=0

I obviously do not have proof that Tesla knows without a doubt that autopilot was on. The Chinese government does believe it was on and Tesla had advertised the car as self-driving in China.

You also do not have proof that the family "isn't cooperating." You don't even know that the family is in posession of or has access to the car.

 

[Stoneymonster]

I know exactly what I am saying and I am obviously speaking my opinion and concern given the facts.

In August, Reuters reported that Tesla removed a Chinese term for “self-driving” from its China website after a driver in Beijing had a nonfatal crash while Autopilot was engaged. That driver later complained that the carmaker had oversold Autopilot’s capability.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/b...volved-autopilot-government-tv-says.html?_r=0

I obviously do not have proof that Tesla knows without a doubt that autopilot was on. The Chinese government does believe it was on and Tesla had advertised the car as self-driving in China.

You also do not have proof that the family "isn't cooperating." You don't even know that the family is in posession of or has access to the car.

Right, so since we don't know anything for sure right now, it's probably best not to throw around accusations of impropriety. There's lots of reasons to take Elon to task on the statistics that are based on evidence, not speculation.

 

[theslimshadyist]

The headline is wrong until confirmed. There is no evidence this was AP related yet. Until Tesla has access to the logs (which they have not been allowed to see), I don't see how anyone could say.

Exactly.

 

[3Victoria]

Sounds good! More radars are needed in Teslas (I think they are coming 'soon'. Is the Volvo Lidar system actually available now?

 

[Gizmotoy]

volve CANNOT handle this too

even a slow speed low ground clearance object, it can not stop

I don't know how a comparison of 2010 model year vehicles is relevant to today's vehicles. But I skimmed through, and the Volvo stopped in time (Timestamp 1:25). That's on technology 2 generations old and without LIDAR. Not sure what you're getting at.

Sounds good! More radars are needed in Teslas (I think they are coming 'soon'. Is the Volvo Lidar system actually available now?

Yes, in 2016s or newer with the Technology Package. Rear 3/4 Radar is in some models V60/XC90 with the BLIS (Blind Spot Information System) Package.

 

[Stoneymonster]

volve CANNOT handle this too

even at slow speed low ground clearance object, it can not stop

Chinese accident happened at 75-80mph

volve's AEB is much worse than tesla

TEST under 10mph

TEST under 20mph

Yeah, just stop, this is cherrypicking. The video with the people didn't even have the safety feature on the car.

 

[Zybd1201]

You have proof? What proof do you have of when Tesla/Elon was notified? Where is the proof that AP was enabled? Nobody that was in the car survived to even tell us that it was and Tesla hasn't been given acccess to the logs. At this point the only proof we have is that the driver wasn't paying attention, was in a crash, and died.

I am sorry, can you please provide me proof that the driver wasn't paying attention?

Isn't it also possible the driver simply thought "the car won't hit that truck because I am on autopilot."

 

[Zybd1201]

Right, so since we don't know anything for sure right now, it's probably best not to throw around accusations of impropriety. There's lots of reasons to take Elon to task on the statistics that are based on evidence, not speculation.

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. It is a responsible thing to say and I respect that.

However, in my opinion after watching the video and knowing of other similar incidents I find it highly likely the car was on autopilot. I also find the claim "we cannot examine the car to confirm it was on autopilot" to be consistent with my experience with tesla and its handling of other similar events. I personally, do not believe that until it is independently investigated.

Tesla makes all of these claims about logs but I do not know of anyone who is independently verifying these logs?

If I were the owner of this car I also would not allow Tesla to examine the car until it agreed to do so with an independent investigator who can confirm or deny Tesla's interpretation of the logs. I would also want to know the accuracy of their logs in general. We don't know any of those things. It is entirely possible the logs say it wasn't on autopilot but it was isn't it?

 

[luca]

I don't know how a comparison of 2010 model year vehicles is relevant to today's vehicles. But I skimmed through, and the Volvo stopped in time (Timestamp 1:25). That's on technology 2 generations old and without LIDAR. Not sure what you're getting at.



Yes, in 2016s or newer with the Technology Package. Rear 3/4 Radar is in some models V60/XC90 with the BLIS (Blind Spot Information System) Package.

Check the other two

 

[Stoneymonster]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. It is a responsible thing to say and I respect that.

However, in my opinion after watching the video and knowing of other similar incidents I find it highly likely the car was on autopilot. I also find the claim "we cannot examine the car to confirm it was on autopilot" to be consistent with my experience with tesla and its handling of other similar events. I personally, do not believe that until it is independently investigated.

Tesla makes all of these claims about logs but I do not know of anyone who is independently verifying these logs?

If I were the owner of this car I also would not allow Tesla to examine the car until it agreed to do so with an independent investigator who can confirm or deny Tesla's interpretation of the logs. I would also want to know the accuracy of their logs in general. We don't know any of those things. It is entirely possible the logs say it wasn't on autopilot but it was isn't it?

Indeed, how do we know anything for sure ever?

 

[Chopr147]

We don't know for sure and may never know. So the media is free to blame AP until proven otherwise. And then will be silent-no apologies nescessary.
But, having seen other accidents just like this it is highly likely AP was engaged. They can sue Tesla but will also need to prove AP was engaged. That dashcam may be all the evidence they need. As an AP user it is a reminder to always watch the road and not get too complacent by the excellent tech. Elon is right, the long time users can be the most dangerous. AP is that good, until it isn't

 

[Zybd1201]

Indeed, how do we know anything for sure ever?

We have 'impartial' people confirm or deny it to the best of their abilities.

Unfortunately, we cannot confirm or deny anything Tesla says because they don't share any of that information.

At one time, when I still believed that autopilot was safer than a human driver I did get all of the available safety statistics and start a python notebook with all of that data and tried to figure out how to prove it was true. I even looked into commercial trucks specifically to try and prove it was more likely to be in an accident with a truck than it was while on autopilot.

I didn't publish my work because I couldn't prove any of it at all. The statistics being provided leave gaping holes and I could not even come close to any conclusion that Tesla's are in less accidents or have less fatalities than any other comparable modern car. By all available reports and statistics from 2015 it did not seem that any of the assertions being made were backed up by any available data at all.

Of course, all of this could be cleared up by Tesla sharing its data with the public. If it truly is as safe as they say it is there is no reason for them to hide it. They should advertise it.

Unfortunately, just like others have claimed that the Chinese family is "not allowing Tesla to examine the car to confirm it was on autopilot" Tesl is equally not allowing the world to examine the veracity of its claims that autopilot is safer than a human driver.

 

[Zybd1201]

Indeed, how do we know anything for sure ever?

P.s. I appreciate the civil discussion. My mind is available to be changed but at this point I believe consumers more than Tesla. If someone proves me wrong I would be happy to admit I was wrong.

 

[jeffro01]

I understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. It is a responsible thing to say and I respect that.

However, in my opinion after watching the video and knowing of other similar incidents I find it highly likely the car was on autopilot. I also find the claim "we cannot examine the car to confirm it was on autopilot" to be consistent with my experience with tesla and its handling of other similar events. I personally, do not believe that until it is independently investigated.

Tesla makes all of these claims about logs but I do not know of anyone who is independently verifying these logs?

If I were the owner of this car I also would not allow Tesla to examine the car until it agreed to do so with an independent investigator who can confirm or deny Tesla's interpretation of the logs. I would also want to know the accuracy of their logs in general. We don't know any of those things. It is entirely possible the logs say it wasn't on autopilot but it was isn't it?

I realize you have a personal bone to pick with Tesla, however, you shouldn't allow your own disdain to slant your perspective. Again, you continue to throw around some pretty serious accusations based off of information you have no proof of other than your "opinion" which as I'm sure you know, is not a fact.

Jeff

 

[Stoneymonster]

P.s. I appreciate the civil discussion. My mind is available to be changed but at this point I believe consumers more than Tesla. If someone proves me wrong I would be happy to admit I was wrong.

Well if your trust in Tesla is forever damaged, I can see why it's difficult to be swayed. I think Tesla is much more open and forthcoming than the average automaker, though they get overzealous at times. I don't know what company I'd take my business to if they burned me completely, to be honest. VAG, GM, Toyota have not made me confident of their ethics and safety. I guess that leaves Volvo (maybe) and Mercedes.

 

[Tam]

Does the Mercedes have a different sensor suite? Last I read it was almost the same configuration.

Almost!

Mercedes uses 5 radar sensors while Tesla uses 1.

Mercedes has been using a stereo camera for years while Tesla's system is still using monocular camera.

 

[Troy]

Below are similar examples where both TACC and front collision avoidance failed to apply the brakes. I think TACC ignores stationary objects and front collision avoidance is indifferent to who drives the car. Therefore it always assumes the driver will steer away in last second, even when autosteer is enabled.

◘ Video 1: Click HERE to watch on youtube. Embed doesn't work for this one.
◘ Video 2, 3, 4:

 

[KZKZ]

Anyone else equally concerned by the fact this happened in JANUARY? This occurred before the Florida crash and was not disclosed.

Additionally, all of the statistics that were previously stated may have been known to be false at the time they were said?

Yes, totally agree.

Tesla also didn't disclose the Joshua Brown fatality either until NHTSA was about to announce they were opening their safety investigation.