TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
  1. TMC is currently READ ONLY.
    Click here for more info.

Another Model X crash, driver says autopilot was engaged

Discussion in 'Model X' started by Az_Rael, Jul 5, 2016.

  1. TacC

    TacC Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    195
    Location:
    East Bay, CA
    IDGI. It sounds like we agree on that.
     
  2. FarmerDave

    FarmerDave Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2015
    Messages:
    546
    Location:
    Central PA
    Oh you meant the CHIMES!

    I thought a different kind of bong;)
     
    • Funny x 3
  3. omarsultan

    omarsultan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2013
    Messages:
    2,164
    Location:
    Northern California
    Well, I guess those ones don't have a language barrier either :)
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Funny x 1
  4. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,305
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
    In this particular case the driver was a fairly wealthy well known individual. Sometimes in life you just have to accept the simplest explanation. In this case he likely didn't realize it wasn't on. So it really comes down to a UI issue. He certainly wouldn't be the first person to crash a Tesla thinking Autopilot was on when it wasn't.
     
  5. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    871
    Location:
    Newark, CA
    nor will he likely to be the last, but that doesn't mean we should blame the technology.
     
  6. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2015
    Messages:
    5,305
    Location:
    Snohomish, WA
    My belief is that we learn the lessons of each accident, and we make changes according to the evidence. We don't accuse the driver of ulterior motives and completely dismiss what they felt happened.

    The fatality accident that happened recently with the Jeep being in neutral technically was the drivers fault in that he failed to do it properly (and didn't use the parking brake on a hill). But, ultimately it was Jeeps failure by making it extremely error prone.
     
    • Like x 2
  7. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,719
    Location:
    Boston North Shore
    My thought is that the entire color scheme of the driver's display should change when on AP so it was totally obvious. The current UI is pretty subtle both in showing the 3 states, off, TACC, AP and the transitions.

    I could also imagine the car continuing to monitor the wheel, even when AP was off, and if it couldn't detect a hand on it, emit some pretty noticeable warnings. We're all in agreement that people should have at least one hand on the wheel when not in AP, right?
     
    • Like x 1
  8. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    Aptos, Ca
    Given the current hardware, that would be pretty hard to detect without a lot of false positives. It detects torque on the wheel, which in a lot of normal, hands-on-wheel situations would be minimal. Without a contact sensor, this wouldn't be feasible without being annoying.
     
  9. timf

    timf Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages:
    1,039
    Location:
    Michigan
    Autopilot is already pretty bad in this regard. I often will rest my hands on the bottom of the steering wheel while in Autopilot (so my hand are on the wheel as they want), but I still get "Place hands on wheel" alerts that require me to firmly grasp it in order to register.
     
    • Like x 1
  10. Stoneymonster

    Stoneymonster Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,787
    Location:
    Aptos, Ca
    Yup, me too.
     
  11. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    8,229
    Location:
    San Diego
    Me too. I raised an eyebrow when one of Tesla's statements about one of the crashes said that the software could detect hands rested on the wheel from micro torque movements. It doesn't appear to in my case. I have to actually jiggle the wheel for it to realize I'm holding it.
     
  12. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2015
    Messages:
    2,623
    Location:
    Minnesota
    It's possible that the vehicle can detect it, but a certain threshold has to be reached before the vehicle acknowledges it.
     
  13. RDoc

    RDoc S85D

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,719
    Location:
    Boston North Shore
    I just grip the wheel comfortably and let it move and never have any nags. It's more than just resting my hand on the wheel, but I don't do anything at all except let the wheel move my relaxed hand and arm.

    If someone is actually steering though, I'm pretty sure they put in a lot, at least 10s, of corrections per minute, even on a straight road. It should be possible to detect them, and their lack pretty easily.
     
  14. Matias

    Matias Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Finland
    I think that he didn't understand, that AP had disengaged. As you know, normally when you get the nag and put some pressure on the wheel AP continues to operate.

    Here is an interesting article of NASA's research on AP-human interface problems;

    What NASA Could Teach Tesla about Autopilot's Limits
     
    • Informative x 2
  15. Garlan Garner

    Garlan Garner Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    11,351
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    That's a horrible article. No one is making drivers use Autopilot. Its not Automatically On upon delivery.

    I really don't understand. I don't understand the difference between AP and cruise control as far as liability is concerned.
     
  16. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,408
    Location:
    EU
    In the aviation world, where that auto-pilot name comes from anyway, Mode Confusion is a real issue that has been researched and solved in various levels of success throughout time.

    Mode Confusion on Tesla's Auto-Pilot - and indeed any such car system - seems equally a potential problem. If the user confuses the Auto-Pilot as being on, when it is indeed off (or any other similar modal confusion), that might lead to catastrophic consequences.

    The transition and current state from Auto-Pilot to manual control (and anything in-between) should be clear on any such system, be it a plane or a car.

    Not making any commentary on what Auto-Pilot currently is or is not - or who is responsible of what. Just a general commentary that certainly automated piloting systems can increase or lessen mode confusion depending on the success of their design.

    There is a recent press interview from Audi too of them taking Mode Confusion very seriously in their autonomous vehicle work.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. KZKZ

    KZKZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2016
    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    Calif
    Thanks for posting the article, it had a lot of great perspectives and some interesting insights into the recent AP involved accidents.
     
    • Like x 1
  18. Matias

    Matias Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    3,208
    Location:
    Finland
    That article doesn't discuss liability at all. Only problems with AP-Human interaction.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,408
    Location:
    EU
    Here is the Audi's Dr. Stefan Knirsch (a member of board of management for technical development) answer on autonomous vehicles and mode confusion. It seems a relevant industry talking point, at least. Also, interesting from the perspective of what AP 2.0+ might eventually be like. This is from the latest Plugin Magazine.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative x 2
  20. aija SigX 649

    aija SigX 649 Winged Lion

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    PA/NJ
    The steering wheel does not have "touch" sensors per say. The steering wheel control system detects slight resistance against it's directed control. In other words, if you just turn the wheel slightly while the system is trying to keep it straight, or vise versa - if it's trying to turn slightly and you are holding it straight, it registers it as hands-on-wheel.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC