Another Model X crash, driver says autopilot was engaged

[Tam]

Or if it's deemed inadequate by NHTSA maybe Tesla will be forced to upgrade the hardware to be more capable

Lack of more advanced hardware does not mean a recall.

Conventional cruise control lacks the ability to slow down on its own but you don't recall it. That's because it is safe to use as directed.

Tesla current Autopilot is safe as directed--attentive driver who's in control of the car, not the car in control of you.

 

[omarsultan]

The media is a joke. They pounce on this for ratings due to last weeks story. (Driver error) Headlines that get corrected never have the same impact. Elon is frustrated because he know this, and he knows the truth about autopilot. This is the same media that will shape the next presidential election. As owners, we need to speak up.

Hate to say this, but to some degree, this is of Tesla's own making. Because Elon and Tesla have both been media darlings, they have gotten away with modest investments on the marketing/corp comm end of things. But, the next 12-16 months are critical for Tesla and so the long knives are out and this kind of stuff is going to get get worse before it gets better as vested interests are going to look to amplify any source of FUD.

The media runs on a build-them-up-then tear-them-down cycle. While you cannot avoid the cycle, the quality of media engagement and strength of relationships can have a strong impact on the amplitude and duration of both the peaks and the valleys.

 

[sorka]

The press doesn't print the hundreds of times a day auto pilot prevent an accident because some stupid driver was texting. If we could only know how many fatalities were averted not only because of AP but because of the car's crash worthiness.

 

[ccutrer]

In the short video that went across the nation had a snippet of information about the crash focusing on Tesla's Auto Pilot. No mention of the speed, which by witness accounts was extreme for a non-limited access road; The fact that the collision was at the windshield level as the S passed beneath the trailer; the fact that the car was going so fast, the impact didn't stop the S which continued another 100+ feet across a grass field before coming to rest at a light pole. Witnesses reveal new details behind deadly Tesla accident in Florida

I feel for the deceased Model S driver who previous posted confident and positive videos while using the Auto Pilot feature. All Tesla drivers should be reminded -- "auto pilot is not for all conditions, roads." Don't become complacent or intoxicated with the speed and capability. When I drive with auto pilot, I use only on interstate highways or limited access roads--never in construction zones, narrow lanes, in heavy traffic or extreme whether. As Tesla warns. I always have a hand on the steering wheel and pay attention to the road ahead. Lastly, when circumstances exceed our comfort level, DRIVE (we make hundreds of adjustments for a minute for conditions and circumstances). Unfortunately, one of our fold lost his life, and another "flipped" his X -- let's learn this is not yet Autonomous Driving.

Heavy traffic is one of the most effective places to use autopilot. It reduces your stress level dealing with the stop and go, so that you can be more attentive without fatigue. But definitely always be vigilant, ready to take control. I've got my following distance set so that the car brakes a fraction of a second before I would brake myself - with my foot ready to take action should the car not respond when I think it should.

 

[shonline]

Hate to say this, but to some degree, this is of Tesla's own making. Because Elon and Tesla have both been media darlings, they have gotten away with modest investments on the marketing/corp comm end of things. But, the next 12-16 months are critical for Tesla and so the long knives are out and this kind of stuff is going to get get worse before it gets better as vested interests are going to look to amplify any source of FUD.

The media runs on a build-them-up-then tear-them-down cycle. While you cannot avoid the cycle, the quality of media engagement and strength of relationships can have a strong impact on the amplitude and duration of both the peaks and the valleys.

Astute and agreed. Well said, and entirely correct. And sadly, rather sad.

I hate "The game" as I suspect does Elon. The fact that the media want their rightful penance in the game is one of the problems we have as a society. One of the reasons I love Tesla is the righteousness of the cause and the up yours attitude of being a disruptive force against the status quo.

More of this teardown is looming I am sure. The powers that be never give up without a fight, and the masses tend to assess only the first, loudest cry.

 

[Filter]

I love autopilot and use it for my daily highway commute with no issues. It has been tremendously helpful for me, and allowed me to arrive home in a better mood with more energy. I use it responsibly, and I hope that others will as well. Unfortunately, I think the bad press will force Tesla to limit it's use and increase the "nags."

I also hope the negative news cycle passes soon...

 

[msnow]

The press doesn't print the hundreds of times a day auto pilot prevent an accident because some stupid driver was texting. If we could only know how many fatalities were averted not only because of AP but because of the car's crash worthiness.

True. Here's what Elon told a Fortune Magazine writer today:

“Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Elon Musk Says Autopilot Death 'Not Material' to Tesla Shareholders

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It's pretty inexcusable for a new owner to blame Autopilot. It wasn't something that was just pushed to their car where it was for a lot of Model S owners.

Don't new owners actually have to sign a document saying they understand what Autopilot means?

Of course there is always the possibility that he was simply telling the cop exactly what happened, and he wasn't trying to make an excuse. There is also the possibility the owner was mistaking TACC with AP.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

"The crash came just one day after the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration issued a report on a fatal crash in May involving a Tesla that was in self-driving mode."

The media keeps reporting this mysterious self-driving mode

How do I engage it? I can only engage TACC, or AP. Neither of those are self-driving.

 

[MP3Mike]

Well they also say that the NHTSA issued a report, when all they have done is say that they are going to look into the accident. No report has been issued.

To move at Internet speed "news" sources have eliminated all editors, proof-readers, and fact checkers.

 

[CliffG]

... In his crash report, Vukovich stated that Scaglione's car was traveling east near mile marker 160, about 5 p.m. when it hit a guard rail "off the right side of the roadway. It then crossed over the eastbound lanes and hit the concrete median."

If that's the stretch of road I think it is, there's about a 2-3000 ft. drop in elevation, with most of the traffic at or above the speed limit. Not the best place to cede control of the car, IMHO - I even dropped out of cruise control there, but that's just me.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I'd wait for more facts to become available before drawing any conclusions from this latest incident, but I have to wonder: how in the heck did a Model X of all cars get rolled?

 

[Drivin]

“Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Elon Musk Says Autopilot Death 'Not Material' to Tesla Shareholders

I am sure that there is proof that autopilot would have prevented 500k deaths every year because otherwise stating it so assertively as fact and "bloody math" would seriously be misleading the public and that would never happen.

BTW, if this wasn't material, why did the news not come until after the $2B offering and the SCTY bid (unlike the one that just happened and was announced right away) ?

 

[Eclectic]

True. Here's what Elon told a Fortune Magazine writer today:

“Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Elon Musk Says Autopilot Death 'Not Material' to Tesla Shareholders

I've been a securities lawyer for 20 years and much of my work focuses on SEC compliance, which often includes determinations of materiality.

I'm sure that at the time of the May securities offering, Tesla's lawyers made a determination that the incident did not rise to the level of being material for purposes of SEC disclosure rules. I'm positive that Musk didn't simply make the call on his own. I've never had a CEO make the final call on whether something would be disclosed in a SEC filing/securities offering document. Sometimes they argue one way or the other, but at the end of the day it's the lawyers who make the call. If we don't agree with what the company is trying to do, we simply won't give the opinion that is required for an SEC offering and that would kill the offering.

With that said, I think that Tesla's securities lawyers made a mistake in deeming this to not be material and Musk's mini-tirade made him look like a fool. He has no idea what materiality means for purposes of Rule 10b-5 (the SEC's anti-fraud rule). It is not a quantitative measure. It's quite subjective and is not based on how the stock price moves. It has to do with whether a typical investor would want to know about the information before making an investment decision.

Perhaps loyal Tesla fans would not care about knowing that an important part of Tesla's technology may have failed and may cause regulators to step in, but I suspect most financial investors would most certainly want to know of such a thing. They may end up still investing after reviewing the disclosure, but 10b-5 is about providing information, not what investors do with that information.

By "calling BS" on the question as to whether the information was material and then conflating stock price with materiality, Musk came off as a petulant and uninformed exec. A very bad show.

He should have just said "Our counsel made a determination that the information was not material and I stand by their determination."

 

[msnow]

I am sure that there is proof that autopilot would have prevented 500k deaths every year because otherwise stating it so assertively as fact and "bloody math" would seriously be misleading the public and that would never happen.

BTW, if this wasn't material, why did the news not come until after the $2B offering and the SCTY bid (unlike the one that just happened and was announced right away) ?

Well I think that's exactly the point Fortune was trying to make. Obviously Elon doesn't agree.

 

[Magus]

There's the media and then there's reality. I believe it was not material because autopilot was never intended to prevent an accident like that. I completely disagree with with eclectic.

 

[NikeWings]

Well they also say that the NHTSA issued a report, when all they have done is say that they are going to look into the accident. No report has been issued.

I think this is the [report] being referenced, sourced from the office of defects and investigation within the NHTSA which is part of the department of transportation which is an an agency of the executive branch of the US government which oversees the United States of America which is the leader of the free world and soon to include Mars.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM530776/INOA-PE16007-7080.PDF

 

[BriansBucketList]

The slant of news to the negative side of things Hi lights the target on your back when the petrochemical industry is threatened, especially when US oil reserves are starting to look much more significant due to recent advances in technology. OK.... Fracking.

I believe Elon is getting sick of his company seemingly being accountable for every crash, fatality, etc. He usually does a good job of damage control. Probably time to expand PR with some heavyweights. Do the other carmakers get called out on cruise control when a crash or fatality occurs ? In my view, it's related to who really controls the media. Is a fatality in 130 million autopilot miles a material fact ? Are the CEOs of other major car companies required to report fatalities when they offer stock ?

At a party this weekend, the perception problem was alive and well, and there is no shortage of misperception. The one I get a kick out of is "Tesla needs to recall the car and remove this feature." Sure, Tesla better have everyone bring in the car so they can disable it in software. I mentioned that if they wanted, and it was necessary, and a good idea, they could remove the feature remotely. Blank stares. You mean Tesla can access your car ? That's just not right. Ever hear of "On-Star ?" Yea my car has that. OK, I give up.

If this continues on its course, maybe Tesla should consider a set of software and press updates to change the name to Driver Assistance, or Advanced Cruise Control, etc. Yes, I understand people lump emergency braking, TACC, and lane keeping, not one bucket. If and when they sell 500,000 cars, they better get ready for increased pressure. A quick look a Theranos Technology, the one drop blood test is a fine example. Seldom discussed,mid the fact that a single blood sample given to two Major labs that begin with Q and L resulted in different results. It's tough to be on the cutting edge.

 

[calisnow]

I've been a securities lawyer for 20 years and much of my work focuses on SEC compliance, which often includes determinations of materiality.

I'm sure that at the time of the May securities offering, Tesla's lawyers made a determination that the incident did not rise to the level of being material ... With that said, I think that Tesla's securities lawyers made a mistake in deeming this to not be material and Musk's mini-tirade made him look like a fool. He has no idea what materiality means for purposes of Rule 10b-5 (the SEC's anti-fraud rule).

Thank you - excellent answer. This raises the obvious question - to what degree is a public company protected from liability by relying on its counsel - if that counsel made a mistake? Can an attorney round up a bunch of folks who bought the offering, then attempt to sue Tesla and say that the shares were overpriced because Tesla left out a material fact? And if so, let's hypothesize that you are right - Tesla's attorneys did make a mistake and the AP fatality is deemed to be material by a judge. What then? Would Tesla have some kind of giant liability insurance policy which would pay out $ as a judgement or settlement for Tesla in a case like this because the CEO simply did what his lawyers said he could do? Or would Tesla have to pay $ in some way from its own coffers, not those of its insurance company.

 

[calisnow]

...Musk's mini-tirade made him look like a fool....Musk came off as a petulant and uninformed exec. A very bad show.

I agree with you - it was such an obviously bad show that I got worried about Musk's physical and mental state when I read them - to me those tweets and e-mails to Fortune read like a man who isn't sleeping, is being pushed way too hard and is under so much stress he's losing his composure and what little filter he had and that his nerves are raw.

He does the work of three men under normal conditions. Now he has a fatality to deal with, vicious press, missed targets, the Solar City mini-debacle, an NHTSA investigation and just got a divorce. If I was religious I'd be praying for God to grant him physical and mental strength right now.