Another Model X crash, driver says autopilot was engaged

[Yitt]

If you use it in conditions where it is supposed to be used and works best - it is GREAT.

This has been said before and it will be said again, but it can never be said enough. If you simply use AP in the manner it is intended, it works GREAT. The vast majority of complaints and concerns arise from treating AP as something that it is not.

I, too, have experienced the uncomfortable closeness with trucks on the right and the occasional drift toward an unwanted exit. However, because I had my eyes on the road and my hands on the wheel, ready to take over at any time, these never caused any problem.

The theories of liability I see against Tesla lately are based on the assumption that Tesla is obligated to protect us from ourselves. Since Tesla "knows" people will do email in their car instead of watching the road, the theory goes, Tesla should never have given us the weighty responsibility of AP. But this logic applies equally to ordinary cruise control, manual seat belts, and for that matter, cars that can go very fast. If Porsche is not liable every time someone wraps himself around a tree at 120 mph, I don't see why Tesla is responsible for people who don't follow the instructions on AP.

It's weird being a Tesla owner. The objective merit of the car is immediately obvious to anyone who drives it, but it seems as though there is literally an industry based around denigrating the car and company. Every time someone dies in a Tesla, it's international news.

 

[3PHASE]

After reading some of these reports, perhaps I should not have used autopilot on 1/2 of the Harry Nice bridge (Google Maps). It's a very narrow 2 lane bridge connecting So. MD with VA. The sensors (on my rented Model S) were detecting the concrete barrier on the right side of the bridge as I came up from the south, the entire time I had it activated. I like autopilot because it keeps you in the center of the lane, but this was probably not the place to use it.

 

[Just a Reader]

He (Musk) continued, “Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Whatever the legal relevance of such statements, I wonder how a man as widely traveled as Elon Musk - who is also a native of South Africa - can claim such a complete nonsense.

May I quote from Wikipedia ( List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):

According to the World Health Organization, road traffic injuries caused an estimated 1.25 million deaths worldwide in the year 2010. ... Half of the world’s road traffic deaths occur among motorcyclists (23%), pedestrians (22%) and cyclists (5%) – i.e. "vulnerable road users"

Relevance of Tesla's technology for those fatalaties? None? Most people who die in car accidents do so in poor countries because they are driving old and crappy cars on poor roads with badly enforced traffic regulations. Musk's claim is simply absurd.

 

[ccutrer]

After reading some of these reports, perhaps I should not have used autopilot on 1/2 of the Harry Nice bridge (Google Maps). It's a very narrow 2 lane bridge connecting So. MD with VA. The sensors (on my rented Model S) were detecting the concrete barrier on the right side of the bridge as I came up from the south, the entire time I had it activated. I like autopilot because it keeps you in the center of the lane, but this was probably not the place to use it.
View attachment 184166

As long as your hands are loosely on the wheel, ready to keep it from veering off due to a sensor ghost, you're probably fine.

Compare it regular cruise control. Is it not okay to use it when you're following right behind someone, because they might suddenly stop and you could get killed? Sure you can - you're just ever at the ready to either veer around the car, or slam on the brakes yourself. Auto steer and TACC are just a really really fancy cruise control. Be ready to correct them at any time, but feel free to use them to make your drive easier. You are ultimately in control, not the car. Someday, maybe, but watching the car's understanding of the world around it, and how it can react is just so limited compared to a human's understanding and ability to react to novel situations. In way, it's amazing how well autopilot can work when it's really so basic in comparison.

 

[msnow]

I don't believe this to be any different from most major companies? All rental car companies I have used recently are self insured. I believe major automakers are the same. No insurance company (that I could find) is paying for GM recalls or liability. Ford / Firestone were responsible for their issues.

Ford and GM, just to name two, had primary product liability coverage from major commercial insurance companies at least as of 2014. I'd be surprised if that changed.

 

[DFibRL8R]

He (Musk) continued, “Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Whatever the legal relevance of such statements, I wonder how a man as widely traveled as Elon Musk - who is also a native of South Africa - can claim such a complete nonsense.

May I quote from Wikipedia ( List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):

According to the World Health Organization, road traffic injuries caused an estimated 1.25 million deaths worldwide in the year 2010. ... Half of the world’s road traffic deaths occur among motorcyclists (23%), pedestrians (22%) and cyclists (5%) – i.e. "vulnerable road users"

Relevance of Tesla's technology for those fatalaties? None? Most people who die in car accidents do so in poor countries because they are driving old and crappy cars on poor roads with badly enforced traffic regulations. Musk's claim is simply absurd.

I wouldn't say "none" of the motorcyclist, pedestrian and bicycle deaths would be prevented. If all cars had Tesla-like AP systems, I would imagine there would be fewer incidents with motorcycles and possibly even bikes or pedestrians (though I realize pedestrian avoidance is not a feature yet). As for the crappy cars comment, sure, but safety features which were once only an expensive option have generally trickled down to become standard features on all cars (ABS, airbags, crashworthiness). No reason to think that as the AP tech gets cheaper and better it won't do the same.

 

[NikeWings]

Thanks for the proper highlights guys. I know better, and should have read the filings last night. That aside, I would be floored if the senior Lenders did not require appropriate forms of insurance to protect corporate assets. Perhaps SI is considered industry standard and therefore appropriate? I don't know but will pull the credit agreement and take a look.....my interest is quite piqued. [Full Disclosure - I do not have, nor had, nor plan to have a position in the equity or debt securities of TSLA]

I found this in an L.A. Times article from last week:
"Product liability claims could be costly for Tesla, which notes in Securities and Exchange Commission filings that the company -- not an insurer -- would be on the hook to pay any such claims.

“Any product liability claims will have to be paid from company funds, not by insurance,” the company notes in the “risk factors” section of its latest annual report."

Fatal Tesla crash exposes lack of regulation over autopilot technology

Having just gone through a similar process with securities lawyers, it amazes me that anyone who reads corporate filings would choose to invest in a company based on what is disclosed in the risk factors section. (Obvious answer is that no one actually does read the corporate filings.) As to the current topic, Tesla does disclose this:

We may become subject to product liability claims, which could harm our financial condition and liquidity if we are not able to successfully defend or insure against such claims.

Product liability claims could harm our business, prospects, operating results and financial condition. The automobile industry experiences significant product liability claims and we face inherent risk of exposure to claims in the event our vehicles do not perform as expected resulting in personal injury or death. We also may face similar claims related to any misuse or failures of new technologies that we are pioneering, including autopilot in our vehicles and our Tesla Energy products. A successful product liability claim against us with respect to any aspect of our products could require us to pay a substantial monetary award. Our risks in this area are particularly pronounced given the limited number of vehicles and energy storage products delivered to date and limited field experience of our products. Moreover, a product liability claim could generate substantial negative publicity about our products and business and would have material adverse effect on our brand, business, prospects and operating results. We self-insure against the risk of product liability claims, meaning that any product liability claims will have to be paid from company funds, not by insurance.

 

[Cosmacelf]

It doesn't matter if AP was truly on at the time of the accident. The driver thought it was on, that's all that matters. Tesla AP is not designed correctly if it can turn off without the driver realizing it (which has happened twice to me so far, no accidents, thankfully).

I'm about done with Elon's ridiculous statistics purporting to be the last word. You can't compare accident rates in third world countries with US accident rates. If you want proper AP accident rates, you have to actually analyze accident stats where AP was on, or very recently on (see above, or in cases where driver had to take emergency control), find out what kind of roads those cases were on, and compare that to accidents in that country on those types of roads. Enough with the 60,000 foot view simple stats, they are meaningless, and it reflects poorly on Elon that he doesn't realize this and/or doesn't care and is just being an advocate.

 

[EarlyAdopter]

That's fortunate given that Tesla claims they were unable to roll the X themselves, and thus did not test it themselves. Perhaps they can hire the driver.

They were unable to roll it at crash test facilities, where they use ramps under controlled conditions to attempt to induce a roll. Good that such facilities also have roof crush machines and suspended drop tests. Nowhere did Tesla say they couldn't roll it in the real world, because, you know, cliffs, embankments, and center dividers are things.

I hope this tale doesn't turn out to be a mashup of Icarus and Preston Tucker

Really? We're going full Tucker now?

Having just gone through a similar process with securities lawyers, it amazes me that anyone who reads corporate filings would choose to invest in a company based on what is disclosed in the risk factors section. (Obvious answer is that no one actually does read the corporate filings.) As to the current topic, Tesla does disclose this:

Another obvious answer is that good investors realize there is risk in any worthwhile endeavor in life and it is better to be fully informed than not. For example, how comfortable would you be investing in a company that had a very short or incomplete risk factors section?

He (Musk) continued, “Indeed, if anyone bothered to do the math (obviously, you did not) they would realize that of the over 1M auto deaths per year worldwide, approximately half a million people would have been saved if the Tesla autopilot was universally available. Please, take 5 mins and do the bloody math before you write an article that misleads the public.”

Whatever the legal relevance of such statements, I wonder how a man as widely traveled as Elon Musk - who is also a native of South Africa - can claim such a complete nonsense.

May I quote from Wikipedia ( List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ):

According to the World Health Organization, road traffic injuries caused an estimated 1.25 million deaths worldwide in the year 2010. ... Half of the world’s road traffic deaths occur among motorcyclists (23%), pedestrians (22%) and cyclists (5%) – i.e. "vulnerable road users"

Relevance of Tesla's technology for those fatalaties? None? Most people who die in car accidents do so in poor countries because they are driving old and crappy cars on poor roads with badly enforced traffic regulations. Musk's claim is simply absurd.

Incorrect. The Mobileye chipset used in Tesla's Autopilot system has pedestrian and bicycle detection. Thus, the relevance of Tesla's technology is greater than "None."


Man, it's like everyone around here has lost their freekin' minds...

 

[Beantown Trio]

Just use common sense while using it, like anything else.

Couldn't agree more with this comment. If you use the system for what it is intended for then it can be a beautiful thing!

Congrats on your X purchase! I am optioning mine and hope to place the order very soon. The boss a.k.a. the wife is almost on board with the purchase!

 

[Chickenlittle]

It doesn't matter if AP was truly on at the time of the accident. The driver thought it was on, that's all that matters. Tesla AP is not designed correctly if it can turn off without the driver realizing it (which has happened twice to me so far, no accidents, thankfully).

I'm about done with Elon's ridiculous statistics purporting to be the last word. You can't compare accident rates in third world countries with US accident rates. If you want proper AP accident rates, you have to actually analyze accident stats where AP was on, or very recently on (see above, or in cases where driver had to take emergency control), find out what kind of roads those cases were on, and compare that to accidents in that country on those types of roads. Enough with the 60,000 foot view simple stats, they are meaningless, and it reflects poorly on Elon that he doesn't realize this and/or doesn't care and is just being an advocate.

Your missing the point. Buying AP does not ensure no accidents. There were not even guarantees of reduced accidents. It does appear however that there are reduced accident rates is s bonus. Just as buying an iPhone does not guarantee that friends will call you

 

[jeffro01]

This is\was inevitable... The more people using AP ups the risk that something negative will happen whether it be with the technology itself or driver misuse. Driver misuse has always been an issue\concern as we have members here who openly admit to abusing the system in an unsafe way. It was only a matter of time before that went tragically wrong.

I don't know what happened with this latest incident in the X but I only saw one post in this thread that highlighted the fact that both occupants walked away... How is it that so many people get so focused on one aspect, without even knowing the facts, without acknowledging the obvious reality that no one was killed in SUV\CUV rollover accident???

I see AP continuing to improve and evolve but I also see more frequent nags coming to a Tesla near you very shortly. The sad reality is people can't be trusted to be responsible and it only takes a few bad eggs to ruin it for everyone. If you didn't see this coming then I can't help you... So long as they don't go full Mercedes 60 second nag, it'll be fine...

In the end, those who want to see Tesla fail are getting all the ammunition they need. Tesla will weather the storm again, just like the battery fires, etc... This does highlight one major shortcoming with Tesla though, and it's reared it's ugly head in a number of situations to date, Tesla needs a professional PR person\staff and could someone take away Elon's ability to tweet about either Tesla or SolarCity? Tweeting about SpaceX is fine, it's not a publicly traded company, but Tesl and SolarCity should not be at the whim of Elon's emotions without first filtering through a good PR person\department...

Jeff

 

[Cosmacelf]

Your missing the point. Buying AP does not ensure no accidents. There were not even guarantees of reduced accidents. It does appear however that there are reduced accident rates is s bonus. Just as buying an iPhone does not guarantee that friends will call you

Elon keeps touting reduced accidents with AP using faulty statistics, not me. I'm personally fine with AP not reducing accidents, but for all we know it increases accident rate. No one here knows since we don't have access to the granular data that Tesla has, and so far, Tesla has not analyzed it (or not disclosed it) to the level needed for a proper analysis. I suspect the NHTSA won't be so cavalier with the data, so in 6 months to a year we might get some meaningful information.

If Tesla is not properly analyzing the accident data (and Elon's tweets point in that direction) that is incompetence since the NHTSA likely won't make the same mistake.

And please don't scoff at the possibility of increased accident rate. Both recent bad accidents (tractor trailer and hitting the barrier) occurred to drivers who might not have gotten into those accidents if it weren't for AP, and there have been other accidents stories in this forum where using (or misusing) AP caused the accident. Explanations like "but if the driver were paying attention, there would have been no accident" is not going to cut it with the NHTSA since without AP the driver WOULD have been paying attention.

 

[NikeWings]

And please don't scoff at the possibility of increased accident rate. Both recent bad accidents (tractor trailer and hitting the barrier) occurred to drivers who might not have gotten into those accidents if it weren't for AP, and there have been other accidents stories in this forum where using (or misusing) AP caused the accident. Explanations like "but if the driver were paying attention, there would have been no accident" is not going to cut it with the NHTSA since without AP the driver WOULD have been paying attention.

Don't be so quick to speak on behalf of the NHTSA. They recently cited a 7.7% increase in Y/Y traffic death rates due to many reasons, which they will be disclosing in detail shortly. In the meantime, the NHTSA states that "Ninety-four percent of crashes can be tied back to a human choice or error, so we know we need to focus our efforts on improving human behavior while promoting vehicle technology that not only protects people in crashes, but helps prevent crashes in the first place.”

NHTSA data shows traffic deaths up 7.7 percent in 2015 | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

 

[Electroman]

Both recent bad accidents (tractor trailer and hitting the barrier) occurred to drivers who might not have gotten into those accidents if it weren't for AP

But there were umpteen number of cases that were reported here and elsewhere where AP averted an accident or fender bender.

Also you can extend your claim to the next level, that had they been not driving that day they would not have been in that accident.

AP did not cause the accident. Improper use of AP caused the accident. Same as when a distracted cell-texting Ford driver rams into a pedestrian, you can make the claim it is that 4000 pound car that has hundreds of horsepower that killed the pedestrian. Or the addictive cell phone technology is to blame. If the car was not on that road, or if cell phones were never manufactured the pedestrian would have been saved - see how silly that argument is?

 

[Matias]

Incorrect. The Mobileye chipset used in Tesla's Autopilot system has pedestrian and bicycle detection. Thus, the relevance of Tesla's technology is greater than "None."

Is that implemented at the moment? Couple of days ago I was in stop and go traffic with AP on. There was a cyclist in front of me and AP didn't see him. If I hadn't disabled AP, car would probably had hit him.

 

[Electroman]

After reading some of these reports, perhaps I should not have used autopilot on 1/2 of the Harry Nice bridge (Google Maps). It's a very narrow 2 lane bridge connecting So. MD with VA. The sensors (on my rented Model S) were detecting the concrete barrier on the right side of the bridge as I came up from the south, the entire time I had it activated. I like autopilot because it keeps you in the center of the lane, but this was probably not the place to use it.
View attachment 184166

I am extremely comfortable with AP and use it a lot. But I would not use it in that bridge, or in any place there would be opposing traffic.

 

[MP3Mike]

Explanations like "but if the driver were paying attention, there would have been no accident" is not going to cut it with the NHTSA since without AP the driver WOULD have been paying attention.

Really, you know that for a FACT? Boy I'm just not sure why all of those people with non-AP cars keep rear ending people, they obviously were paying attention according to you. (Maybe all non-AP rear ending accidents are caused because the brakes failed?)

 

[zambono]

This has been said before and it will be said again, but it can never be said enough. If you simply use AP in the manner it is intended, it works GREAT. The vast majority of complaints and concerns arise from treating AP as something that it is not.

I, too, have experienced the uncomfortable closeness with trucks on the right and the occasional drift toward an unwanted exit. However, because I had my eyes on the road and my hands on the wheel, ready to take over at any time, these never caused any problem.

The theories of liability I see against Tesla lately are based on the assumption that Tesla is obligated to protect us from ourselves. Since Tesla "knows" people will do email in their car instead of watching the road, the theory goes, Tesla should never have given us the weighty responsibility of AP. But this logic applies equally to ordinary cruise control, manual seat belts, and for that matter, cars that can go very fast. If Porsche is not liable every time someone wraps himself around a tree at 120 mph, I don't see why Tesla is responsible for people who don't follow the instructions on AP.

It's weird being a Tesla owner. The objective merit of the car is immediately obvious to anyone who drives it, but it seems as though there is literally an industry based around denigrating the car and company. Every time someone dies in a Tesla, it's international news.

Well put

 

[Canuck]

No insurance company (that I could find) is paying for GM recalls or liability. Ford / Firestone were responsible for their issues.

Ford and GM, just to name two, had primary product liability coverage from major commercial insurance companies at least as of 2014. I'd be surprised if that changed.

We seem to be mixing apples and oranges here.

I would assume that Tesla has commercial general liability coverage in some form that covers fortuitous events but has exclusions for latent defects or inherent vice (I.e. defective products). So coverage will depend on causation and since the duty to defend is much broader than the duty to indemnify, Tesla may be owed a defence from the CGL insurer until the facts necessary to determine the cause of loss is determined at trial. In these types of cases, the insured is usually defended pursuant to a non-waiver agreement or reservation of rights letter. The vast majority of these cases are settled out of court given the costs and uncertainty of litigation. I'm speaking of the AP death case, or other accident cases, assuming litigation arises, and not ordered recalls arising from product liability. Product recall insurance is a whole other issue with its own set of limitations and exclusions. Even if Tesla has product liability insurance, no insurance coverage provides unlimited coverage or monetary limit so it's often a shareholder's concern.