Another price increase

[Suns_PSD]

Gas price is a huge thing for me. I drive about 2k miles a month and am saving around $700/month in fuel costs over an equivalently powered SUV.

My opinion is you don't need a 20 mpg getting Denali Escalade to have an equivalent SUV to a MY.

A Ford Escape Hybrid with equivalent MY luxury cost $32K and gets 40 mpg. At $4.5/ gallon gas that's $225 in fuel a month (at 2K miles/ month) compared to around $65 in electricity costs per month for the MY for a net extra fuel expense of $160 with the ICE.

To be frank, I believed fuel would always be expensive after 2008, but it turns out that wasn't so just like all the other fuel spikes and it's probably not so this time either. Fuel (unfortunately) will probably be < $3/ gallon again in the next couple of years.

Love EVs, love the driving experience, but as I keep pointing out, it's not a money saving venture (at this time anyways), it's a joyful venture.

 

[Madmacs]

My opinion is you don't need a 20 mpg getting Denali Escalade to have an equivalent SUV to a MY.

A Ford Escape Hybrid with equivalent MY luxury cost $32K and gets 40 mpg. At $4.5/ gallon gas that's $225 in fuel a month (at 2K miles/ month) compared to around $65 in electricity costs per month for the MY for a net extra fuel expense of $160 with the ICE.

To be frank, I believed fuel would always be expensive after 2008, but it turns out that wasn't so just like all the other fuel spikes and it's probably not so this time either. Fuel (unfortunately) will probably be < $3/ gallon again in the next couple of years.

Love EVs, love the driving experience, but as I keep pointing out, it's not a money saving venture (at this time anyways), it's a joyful venture.

Comparing a MYP to a Ford Escape hybrid is ludicrous. We have a Kia Sorento hybrid that gets 45mpg and it’s clearly no MYP. I enjoy driving, I’m not driving a dog of a vehicle. Compare the MYP to a Grand Cherokee SRT for both price and power.

 

[slvervper99]

$65 in electricity costs per month for the MY

My son have a Model 3 LR and we always plug it in whenever he comes home from going out whether he drive 30 miles or 3 miles. I do have Solar panels but I before he moved back in with us (remote work) my electricity cost from before and after he moved in was basically similar and I'm not talking about a difference of $20, it's more like $3-5 if that.

 

[Nj-suburbandad]

I managed to get a 21 long range back in the day with NJ full rebate and no tax. Still can't believe it was $47k all in after rebate. Friends still don't believe it was that cheap. I feel very lucky.

 

[Suns_PSD]

My son have a Model 3 LR and we always plug it in whenever he comes home from going out whether he drive 30 miles or 3 miles. I do have Solar panels but I before he moved back in with us (remote work) my electricity cost from before and after he moved in was basically similar and I'm not talking about a difference of $20, it's more like $3-5 if that.

That's a pretty sloppy way to run the calculations.

The M3 efficiency is about 3.5m/ kw. The poster said that they do 2000m/ month so that's 572 kw. US Average electrical rate is 12 cents per kw so that comes out to $69/ month in additional electrical usage. In reality you lose about 10% while charging so it actually takes about 629 kw/ $76 to 'fuel' the Tesla/ month.

It's great that you have solar panels and I too plan to add solar panels to assist with EV charging. Unfortunately: 1) I will have to purchase the solar panels at a not insignificant costs, & 2) any juice used by my car just means more juice I have to buy from the electrical company. So claiming 'it's free' to fuel your EV because of your solar panels as many like to claim, is just inaccurate.

 

[J Vee]

That's a pretty sloppy way to run the calculations.

The M3 efficiency is about 3.5m/ kw. The poster said that they do 2000m/ month so that's 572 kw. US Average electrical rate is 12 cents per kw so that comes out to $69/ month in additional electrical usage. In reality you lose about 10% while charging so it actually takes about 629 kw/ $76 to 'fuel' the Tesla/ month.

It's great that you have solar panels and I too plan to add solar panels to assist with EV charging. Unfortunately: 1) I will have to purchase the solar panels at a not insignificant costs, & 2) any juice used by my car just means more juice I have to buy from the electrical company. So claiming 'it's free' to fuel your EV because of your solar panels

That's a pretty sloppy way to run the calculations.

The M3 efficiency is about 3.5m/ kw. The poster said that they do 2000m/ month so that's 572 kw. US Average electrical rate is 12 cents per kw so that comes out to $69/ month in additional electrical usage. In reality you lose about 10% while charging so it actually takes about 629 kw/ $76 to 'fuel' the Tesla/ month.

It's great that you have solar panels and I too plan to add solar panels to assist with EV charging. Unfortunately: 1) I will have to purchase the solar panels at a not insignificant costs, & 2) any juice used by my car just means more juice I have to buy from the electrical company. So claiming 'it's free' to fuel your EV because of your solar panels as many like to claim, is just inaccurate.

I didn’t read anywhere stating anything was free.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I didn’t read anywhere stating anything was free.

To clarify I've read other posters on this forum claim that fueling their EV is free due to solar panels which I why I said "as many like to claim", and that also sort of seemed to be the 'indication' in the post I quoted. That charging didn't cost much because of solar panels. Just pointing out that this is a poor argument.

It's like saying I bought my own gas station so now filling up my ICE car is free. See what a good deal my ICE is!

 

[MacO512]

To clarify I've read other posters on this forum claim that fueling their EV is free due to solar panels which I why I said "as many like to claim", and that also sort of seemed to be the 'indication' in the post I quoted. That charging didn't cost much because of solar panels. Just pointing out that this is a poor argument.

It's like saying I bought my own gas station so now filling up my ICE car is free. See what a good deal my ICE is!

Well, this could be right sometimes and wrong sometimes.

If you have solar panels but still use more than you produce each month then yes you have to pay for the EV charging the same as someone without panels.

However if you are going to buy solar regardless of vehicle choice, and you produce more electricity then you use; well then the EV charging may be much cheaper. With my power company (and many others) you get a much lower credit for producing energy than they charge you to buy it. So if you produce more energy then you use, powering an EV while not free is much cheaper then just running the numbers for average KWH rate people pay.

So an example might be someone who already owns a gas stations just as an investment, but routinely has to order fuel in a quantity just larger than their stations tank. So they get their personal vehicle filled on tanker delivery day for very close to free.

Overall you have a good point, solar panels don't necessary mean an EV charging is free, and it probably warrants a detailed cost analysis to get an accurate picture. I think most people probably understand this when they go over the $20k-$50k solar panel buying decision. But on a forum its probably more fun and simpler to just say my panels let me charge for free.

 

[DrGriz]

Well, this could be right sometimes and wrong sometimes.

If you have solar panels but still use more than you produce each month then yes you have to pay for the EV charging the same as someone without panels.

However if you are going to buy solar regardless of vehicle choice, and you produce more electricity then you use; well then the EV charging may be much cheaper. With my power company (and many others) you get a much lower credit for producing energy than they charge you to buy it. So if you produce more energy then you use, powering an EV while not free is much cheaper then just running the numbers for average KWH rate people pay.

So an example might be someone who already owns a gas stations just as an investment, but routinely has to order fuel in a quantity just larger than their stations tank. So they get their personal vehicle filled on tanker delivery day for very close to free.

Overall you have a good point, solar panels don't necessary mean an EV charging is free, and it probably warrants a detailed cost analysis to get an accurate picture. I think most people probably understand this when they go over the $20k-$50k solar panel buying decision. But on a forum its probably more fun and simpler to just say my panels let me charge for free.

This is roughly our situation. When we installed solar panels 4 years ago, we basically covered the available south facing roof. The calculated production roughly matched our usage. We did not have an EV at the time, but we did do some things to reduce our overall usage (thermostat settings, heat pump, LEDs, etc.). So, low and behold, we had excess. For the moment anyway, Idaho has simple net metering, so no penalty for excess.

So with 3.5 seasons of net metering and solar, we came into this year with 10,500 kWh excess. Got the Y at the end of February, which happens to be the normal nadir of our usage (winter saps our solar "savings account"; March is when we start making excess again. That translates into roughly 8-10000 miles/year of "free" driving. Sure, we paid for the panels, but that overage wasn't benefitting us at all. You can think of it as getting some of the panels free, or free local driving.

 

[Suns_PSD]

The solar panel argument is a funny one, and I don't just mean on Tesla forums.

Occasionally here in Austin where solar panels (and Teslas) are ubiquitous, I'll go in to someone's home that has an old HVAC system, old lightbulbs, drafty doors, 20 year old windows, average insulation, tanked water heater, etc and they bought solar panels.

Without going down a rabbit hole on the solar panel payback which I've done before on this forum to no avail, it's safe to say that most people are truly terrible at basic math (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular).

I like solar panels, and am building a new home and intend to install solar panels on it, but the cost benefit is iffy at best in a nearly perfect scenario (i.e. new roof, no trees, sunshine state, new high end construction with every efficiency advantage available, going to remain here for 15+ years, etc.)

 

[DrGriz]

The solar panel argument is a funny one, and I don't just mean on Tesla forums.

Occasionally here in Austin where solar panels (and Teslas) are ubiquitous, I'll go in to someone's home that has an old HVAC system, old lightbulbs, drafty doors, 20 year old windows, average insulation, tanked water heater, etc and they bought solar panels.

Without going down a rabbit hole on the solar panel payback which I've done before on this forum to no avail, it's safe to say that most people are truly terrible at basic math (not pointing fingers at anyone in particular).

I like solar panels, and am building a new home and intend to install solar panels on it, but the cost benefit is iffy at best in a nearly perfect scenario (i.e. new roof, no trees, sunshine state, new high end construction with every efficiency advantage available, going to remain here for 15+ years, etc.)

100% agree it will be a rare situation where the numbers make sense. For me, it was the challenge of hearing an Idaho Power yuppity yup with a home here declare it is impossible to do net zero solar in our snowy mountain town. Just had to do it!

 

[Suns_PSD]

Now THAT, I can respect!

 

[yellowr6]

Just sharing my experience and cost on my solar system. how long will it take to break even and have "free" charging...

im in CA so my electric company is charing me $0.36 per kwh. We all know prices will just continue going up so i invested in a solar system about 8 months ago. I shop around for the best deal and end up finding this guy from Solar pal. He beat all the prices out there and some. So DM if you want his info and if you want my personal experience going solar. My advice to anyone thinking of solar, go cash payment if you can. Will save u thousands in interest and fees. Which make the math easier to understand. And don't go too big or you will be over spending. Get what you need by calculating how much power u use for your home and for your EV.

My 8KW system cost me $20k before incentives. Got back my 26% federal tax credit this year so my system cost me $15k up front. My system produced about 1300 ish kwh per month. Production is base on your location and how much sunlight you get.

I used bout 650 kwh each month for my MYP. My wife's prius prime is an extra 150 kwh. I used about 500 kwh for my house. Thats a total of 1300 kwh, give or take 100. 1300 x $0.36: $468 each month to PGE if no solar. Will take me 32 months ish or 2.7 years to break even on my $15k investment. So lets just say 3 years and im good. My panels are warranty for 25 years and guarantee 88% production by year 20. So after 3 years, all my saving will just go toward the car payments. If you want to see it that way. We all know electric and gasoline rate will continue going up. The higher it goes, the quicker return. I was paying over $500 a month for my gasoline bill before getting my MY. This is when gasoline was $4 ish. And Also $150 to my electricity bill. If im still driving my ICE cars and no solar today, my gasoline bill will be $750 ish and my house electricity bill will be around $200! Again, Im from CA where gasoline and electric rate is the highest in the nation. If gas was under $4 and kwh is under $0.10...im not sure so gong solar is the best.


here's my past 31 days charging stats. My total spent (without solar) vs gas saving.

So what am i missing?

 

[MacO512]

Just sharing my experience and cost on my solar system. how long will it take to break even and have "free" charging...

im in CA so my electric company is charing me $0.36 per kwh. We all know prices will just continue going up so i invested in a solar system about 8 months ago. I shop around for the best deal and end up finding this guy from Solar pal. He beat all the prices out there and some. So DM if you want his info and if you want my personal experience going solar. My advice to anyone thinking of solar, go cash payment if you can. Will save u thousands in interest and fees. Which make the math easier to understand. And don't go too big or you will be over spending. Get what you need by calculating how much power u use for your home and for your EV.

My 8KW system cost me $20k before incentives. Got back my 26% federal tax credit this year so my system cost me $15k up front. My system produced about 1300 ish kwh per month. Production is base on your location and how much sunlight you get.

I used bout 650 kwh each month for my MYP. My wife's prius prime is an extra 150 kwh. I used about 500 kwh for my house. Thats a total of 1300 kwh, give or take 100. 1300 x $0.36: $468 each month to PGE if no solar. Will take me 32 months ish or 2.7 years to break even on my $15k investment. So lets just say 3 years and im good. My panels are warranty for 25 years and guarantee 88% production by year 20. So after 3 years, all my saving will just go toward the car payments. If you want to see it that way. We all know electric and gasoline rate will continue going up. The higher it goes, the quicker return. I was paying over $500 a month for my gasoline bill before getting my MY. This is when gasoline was $4 ish. And Also $150 to my electricity bill. If im still driving my ICE cars and no solar today, my gasoline bill will be $750 ish and my house electricity bill will be around $200! Again, Im from CA where gasoline and electric rate is the highest in the nation. If gas was under $4 and kwh is under $0.10...im not sure so gong solar is the best.


here's my past 31 days charging stats. My total spent (without solar) vs gas saving.

So what am i missing?


View attachment 819777

At .36 kwh solar is a great option there. Here in Austin I pay .12 kwh

 

[Unclepaul]

With it taking up to a year to get delivery, Tesla is simply predicting what they will need to charge for cars when delivered to make their margins.

People that ordered prior to the increases will only pay what was the price at that time.

With inflation currently running about 10%/yr, those price hikes for future delivery seem reasonable.

Not just Tesla doing this, but other manufactures as well. When you order a Motorhome, you will contract to purchase it at a certain % +/- of MSRP: when it comes in.

 

[Suns_PSD]

At .36 kwh solar is a great option there. Here in Austin I pay .12 kwh

Agreed.

I'm at .09 kwh with PEC (outskirts of Austin) but we have a temporary .02 bump for 2 or 3 years to cover the last ice storm so currently paying .11 kw. PECs rate has actually been dropping for 2 decades. I can't say if that will continue but electricity rates have in fact been going down here overall, not up.

Project Solar quoted me $11,004 (before Federal Rebate) for a 5.9 kW system DIY install. After I close on a new home being built I'll get it ordered and me and a buddy will install it this Fall. They estimate 9,690 kWh/ year or 807 kWh/ month with this system so at .11 cents cost I save $89/ month. Not accounting for the lost opportunity of not putting that $8,143 (after Federal rebate) somewhere else earning interest, I'm still looking at 91 months (7.6 years) to break even. Since it's a DIY install I'll actually incur a few more expenses which will extend the break even, even further. Plus the electrical rate is supposed to drop back down to .09 kw in about 18 months.

In reality there are other considerations. That money would be in the market otherwise and over that time would in fact have at a minimum matched the 30 year average of 10% and would be nearly $17K at that 7.6 year break even point. Meaning I will not have broken even at all at 7.6 years. I'd actually be in the hole by $9K at this stage for buying solar panels, and the hole will continue to deepen. Even if I did the most cautious thing I could do with this money, and paid my home loan down (which is likely to be 6% by the time we close in the Fall) I'd still be in the hole nearly $5K buying the panels at 7.6 years. Keep in mind this is with a nearly ideal situation, new roof, no trees, sunshine state, very efficient home, going to live here for 2 more decades, etc.

Really, I'd need electrical rates to at least double to make panels an approximately break even deal. Who knows, that may happen. But historically here it definitely has not been the case.

If you get right down to it solar panels can only be justified in TX at this time if you have no debt at all including your home, other investments are maxed out, you purchase them absolutely as cheaply as possible, you keep an ideal home for decades, and ultimately you are just paying for the privilege of being less reliant on the grid.

 

[slvervper99]

My son have a Model 3 LR and we always plug it in whenever he comes home from going out whether he drive 30 miles or 3 miles. I do have Solar panels but I before he moved back in with us (remote work) my electricity cost from before and after he moved in was basically similar and I'm not talking about a difference of $20, it's more like $3-5 if that.

That's a pretty sloppy way to run the calculations.

The M3 efficiency is about 3.5m/ kw. The poster said that they do 2000m/ month so that's 572 kw. US Average electrical rate is 12 cents per kw so that comes out to $69/ month in additional electrical usage. In reality you lose about 10% while charging so it actually takes about 629 kw/ $76 to 'fuel' the Tesla/ month.

It's great that you have solar panels and I too plan to add solar panels to assist with EV charging. Unfortunately: 1) I will have to purchase the solar panels at a not insignificant costs, & 2) any juice used by my car just means more juice I have to buy from the electrical company. So claiming 'it's free' to fuel your EV because of your solar panels as many like to claim, is just inaccurate.

I'm not claiming it as accurate. It is just what I have observed. Obviously, I did not do any scientific calculations whatsoever. All I can say is that it is based on what I have paid last summer compared to this summer when my son moved in. So, if you guys say that I'm wrong about this...then I would happily say ok.

 

[slvervper99]

Was looking over the Tesla site and it looks like they're giving some of the FSD features under a new option. "Enhanced Auto Pilot" I though they had this in the past but this includes is auto lane change, auto park, smart summon, etc. And this for the low low price of $6000. Maybe I'll buy this next year.

 

[kenstl]

To clarify I've read other posters on this forum claim that fueling their EV is free due to solar panels which I why I said "as many like to claim", and that also sort of seemed to be the 'indication' in the post I quoted. That charging didn't cost much because of solar panels. Just pointing out that this is a poor argument.

It's like saying I bought my own gas station so now filling up my ICE car is free. See what a good deal my ICE is!

For some, it can’t be true. I installed solar panels in 2014. With Tax Credits and rebates from the local electrical company at the time, my out-of-pocket was $5000 for a system that at the time, delivered 80% of my usage for my home. Since that time, all lights off and replace the LED and my HVAC had to be replaced and I chose to replace it with a heat pump that was high-efficiency. My payback for my home yes is completed and 3 1/2 years. During the During the funniest portions of the year months I have leftover electricity I could certainly power EV. Someday, I may purchase one. Just like everyone’s cost in person from EV to ice, amount of miles you drive and when do you get 15 mpg or 35 mpg in your car vehicle makes all the difference, similar to your cost of a solar panel system for your home

 

[kenstl]

Just read by post above, I must of been drinking when typing that with all of the grammatical errors lol.