Tam
Well-Known Member
I hope he has gotten good professional advice on how to save face with the legal system because subjective testimony is a sure way to lose against objective car logs.
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Another 'Sudden Acceleration' lawsuit
- Thread starter Joelc
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- Tesla Inc.
I hope he has gotten good professional advice on how to save face with the legal system because subjective testimony is a sure way to lose against objective car logs.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
If you're discussing the above, my understanding is that Tesla's systems are designed to prioritize driver input. That is, you can override the automatic safety systems by, say, pushing the go pedal to the floor. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here.
Tam
Well-Known Member
The lawsuits seeks class action status citing:
"seven other complaints registered in a database compiled by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) dealing with sudden acceleration without warning."
"seven other complaints registered in a database compiled by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) dealing with sudden acceleration without warning."
My Model S currently has a fault where it always thinks the brake pedal is applied. It doesn't cut the torque to zero, it simply limits it. Otherwise my car would not have been able to move, but it does. Also the limit goes away after about a few seconds, and normal acceleration resumes. It does constantly go BRAP BRAP BRAP and flash warnings on the console though. (Yes it's in for service now.)
In any case, there's no reason to assume his foot was on the brake at all.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Currently, Automatic Emergency Braking System is not designed to stop the car so it is not applicable here.
Furthermore, current Automatic Emergency Braking system is designed to comply to driver instruction: If it senses an application of accelerator, it would disable Automatic Emergency Braking system and allows a collision per driver's instruction.
Some drivers do prefer simultaneous applications to both accelerator and brake pedals such as: race drivers getting ready to launch, stopping and get ready to go uphills...
However, Tesla's statement indicates that when the system senses simultaneous applications to both accelerator and brake pedals, it will honor the brake pedal, ignore the accelerator and cut the torque.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I can see this if regen braking is new to the driver (low mileage in these types of cars) or they move about from a non regen vehicle to one with regen. The opposite happened to me the other day. Hoped in an ICE that I formally owned with over 200 k miles of experience but my brain kept wanting it to brake when I lifted my foot off the accelerator. I found myself repeatedly taking corners to quickly and putting on the brakes later than I would normally.
If they are distracted they could easily forget the environment they are in and experience braking (from regen) might allow their brain to THINK they are actually using the brake pedal (or just was) so naturally their foot/leg just does more of the same.
mmd
Active Member
Tam
Well-Known Member
It's just like when you got a receipt printed by an ATM, how does the bank prove in court that the receipt was not modified/tampered with to disadvantage a customer?
In general, I don't think the court ask about the legitimacy of the log unless you can prove that the log was fraudulent.
The court can get witnesses from Tesla coders to explain or a third party needs to look at the system and prove otherwise.
No! The manual is very clear about the Automatic Emergency Braking system: It is not designed to stop your car. If you drive 65 mph, the best it can do is to brake to a speed of 40 mph and let your car collide at a lesser force.
In any automation system, by default, human's overriding instructions always have to be obeyed.
Tam
Well-Known Member
The famous South Korean star has posted on his facebook yesterday, Saturday, 12/31/2016:
Ji Chang Son - 지난 9월10일 저녁 8시에 일어난 일입니다. 저희 둘째 아들 경민이를... | Facebook
Living room view:
Garage view as the Model X punctured through interior garage wall:
Ji Chang Son - 지난 9월10일 저녁 8시에 일어난 일입니다. 저희 둘째 아들 경민이를... | Facebook
Living room view:
Garage view as the Model X punctured through interior garage wall:
Krugerrand
Meow
modamoda
Member
Pseudo translation:
---------
it happened last Sep 10, 8PM.
I was brining my second son to home, opened garage door. after checking garage door is fully opened, the car dived into living room breaking through the wall with large noise when we just tried to get inside the garage
I asked my son if he is okay, then tried to open door, but it didn't open. I was embarrassed but my son opened window and was able to escape from the car. he pulled me from the outside and I was also able to get out.
By first son and wife came down from 2nd floor, I let them go somewhere safe, and called 911
It was "unintended acceleration" what I've used to hear...
Before this accident, I was perfectly satisfied with this car, for a month. I strongly recommended this car to my friends, and some of them bought same car as mine...
but after this accident, I really disappointed with the company's response and attitude.
they blamed me rather than trying to find flaws in their product.
there's more, one week later, someone who came for investigation extracted logs in the "blackbox", so I asked him to show the log to me.
but he refused to do it while making phone call with someone in Tesla.
He keeps me away when I tried to come closer. that's not understandable.
they didn't concede their fault, apparently. So I stared to talk with my lawyer and decided to sue them.
news was started to release from yesterday, they framed me that I'm taking advantage of celebrity so I get the money from them.
If it was made with concrete wall, instead of wood, I might be dead or injured seriously.
Furthermore, there was my son with me in the car! I really love him.
They are denouncing me as bastard who attempted to kill my son.
The Tesla Model X, the safest car in the world, which Tesla claims.
It is the name of the car my family will never forget.
---------
As others have already said, mistaking one pedal for another, or just hitting the wrong one by mistake is not an uncommon problem. Particularly in cars with only two pedals and probably more likely still in a Tesla, where it's not always necessary to use the brake pedal to slow the car.
I've got pretty big feet, so sometimes when I drive a car with a small footwell and pedals very close together, I can end up hitting the wrong pedal too!
I am even prepared initially to give the benefit of doubt to some of the drivers in these accidents, as I'm sure a large proportion of them really do believe they pressed the correct pedal and the car was at fault, not them. In the past, it's been a claim which couldn't easily be disproved, but now more cars are fitted with data logging as standard, the argument develops into a 'human vs. technology' one and common sense goes out the window.
If these "unintended acceleration" claims are going to continue, perhaps some 'proactive management' is needed. A camera in the footwell would be conclusive, but I can see there could be some privacy and personal rights issues to deal with if video recordings are being stored in the data logger.
How about some sort of simple, low cost IR/heat sensor in the footwell which would have enough resolution to detect how the feet are being used on the pedals?
These claimants will always argue 'the computer got it wrong' when confronted with raw data, but if they see an image of their warm tootsies planted firmly on the go pedal, they might be more inclined to save face in a quieter way.
I've got pretty big feet, so sometimes when I drive a car with a small footwell and pedals very close together, I can end up hitting the wrong pedal too!
I am even prepared initially to give the benefit of doubt to some of the drivers in these accidents, as I'm sure a large proportion of them really do believe they pressed the correct pedal and the car was at fault, not them. In the past, it's been a claim which couldn't easily be disproved, but now more cars are fitted with data logging as standard, the argument develops into a 'human vs. technology' one and common sense goes out the window.
If these "unintended acceleration" claims are going to continue, perhaps some 'proactive management' is needed. A camera in the footwell would be conclusive, but I can see there could be some privacy and personal rights issues to deal with if video recordings are being stored in the data logger.
How about some sort of simple, low cost IR/heat sensor in the footwell which would have enough resolution to detect how the feet are being used on the pedals?
These claimants will always argue 'the computer got it wrong' when confronted with raw data, but if they see an image of their warm tootsies planted firmly on the go pedal, they might be more inclined to save face in a quieter way.
A camera in the footwell? I'll volunteer to review the tapes for all of the miniskirted drivers. No, we don't need more technology. Is there a chance the current technology is ever wrong? Sure, nothing is 100% perfect, and these plaintiffs will have a chance to try to convince a jury. They will of course have a mountain to climb.
We shouldn't be letting these claims get to the stage where a jury or even lawyers are involved. The amount of litigation we hear about these days is getting ridiculous.
These stupid claims need to be killed off before any money is wasted on lawyers. Sorry lawyers (not really).
These stupid claims need to be killed off before any money is wasted on lawyers. Sorry lawyers (not really).
Krugerrand
Meow
Thanks for the translation. I don't believe him because I've actually hit the accelerator pedal when intending to brake (ICE car). I'm a one foot driver (unless driving a stick, which I don't do often).
All my mistake entailed was a brief lapse of concentration and awareness. My mind was somewhere else and just like that the automatic, mostly subconscious response of my foot from decades of driving and simply moving my foot a couple of inches failed.
All my mistake entailed was a brief lapse of concentration and awareness. My mind was somewhere else and just like that the automatic, mostly subconscious response of my foot from decades of driving and simply moving my foot a couple of inches failed.
Tam
Well-Known Member
Krugerrand
Meow
Tam
Well-Known Member
There are quite a few complaints of Unintended Acceleration as compiled below for 2010 by Edmunds:
I think the only successful lawsuit so far is against Toyota.
It settled with $1.2 billion as the government found that Toyota concealed its knowledge of sticky designed accelerators (Toyota did change the faulty design on its own but did not report its finding to the government but instead it blamed drivers' errors.)
So, it is understandable that lawyers would love to do some fishing on Tesla when there is a willing owner.
I think the only successful lawsuit so far is against Toyota.
It settled with $1.2 billion as the government found that Toyota concealed its knowledge of sticky designed accelerators (Toyota did change the faulty design on its own but did not report its finding to the government but instead it blamed drivers' errors.)
So, it is understandable that lawyers would love to do some fishing on Tesla when there is a willing owner.
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