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Another "Tesla killer" fading already?
- Thread starter Magellan55
- Start date
“Here we come very strong now. We have invested 30 billion in electromobility, we have already rededicated a plant in Zwickau, and we are building an electric vehicle plant in Shanghai. We will come in 2020 with vehicles that can do anything like Tesla and are cheaper by half.”
VW CEO Herbert Diess -- October 2018 (less than 1 year ago).
VW CEO says they'll have 'EVs as good as Tesla's for half the price by 2020' - Electrek
What a joke.
I think it is perfectly appropriate to call out legacy automakers' subpar EV efforts given all the empty bluster and phony press releases and promises we have seen from them and their supporters for years.
Enough BS. Fossil fuel auto companies need to step up and deliver top-notch EVs that customers will buy in high volumes or get disrupted and replaced by someone who can.
Valore
Member
Here in Europe Audi E-Tron is selling twice as good as the Model S. Model X is not even in the Top 20 anymore, sales must be lower than 358 at #20 so E-Tron is selling probably 4 or 5 times better.
Maybe Tesla is having delivery problems?
August 2019:
E-Tron: 1292
Model S: 630
YTD E-Tron: 9648
YTD Model S: 5479
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Valore
Member
Length x Width:
Audi E-Tron: 4.90m x 1.94m
Model X: 5.05m x 2.00m
Model 3: 4.69m x 1.85m
It's much closer to a Model X than to a Model 3.
PatrickCH4313
Member
Two eTron charging at Schinznach (AG), Switzerland. But for sure we see a lot more Tesla (S,3,Y).
Chaserr was referring to both the iPace and eTron. iPace is within an inch or so of Model 3 (Y?) dimensions. eTron is in-between the 3 and X, but is only a 5 seater like the 3. In the US, advertisements and media only compare them both to the X, though maybe because the Y isn't out yet and they are SUV's.
On your other post, it makes perfect sense that X is a slow seller in the EU - it's too big for many streets. You don't see many (any?) Ford Excursions or Chevy Suburbans there either, other than near US military bases. Heck the S is probably too big too.
My "experience" is not to quibble over internet trivia. 80, 90, 80.2, 90.1%. If your 20 teslas say say 90.0 is better than 80.3%, or that 90% is non-inferior to 80%, then you'll have the data spanning over 12 years and 500,000 battery iterations. First, displayed % is not a real representation of voltage, and second, are the differences clinically relevant, or do you just want to be right and smug at the same time?
BTW, I like the Mr. Big moniker. I'm going to change my screen name, just for you.
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Oldschool496
Member
Good point.
Irrelevant as nobody cares really about degradation on a car they no longer own or plan on trading in constantly or do we care?
If one is trading cars that much in those short of years, use it.
Life is short. GO play golf or something. People who keep these cars for years and years, now those people need to pay real close attention to level of charge.
Maybe.
Still the issue is so little difference and in the not to distant future, you'll not have to think about it at all with the Million mile bat. Perhaps.
Irrelevant as nobody cares really about degradation on a car they no longer own or plan on trading in constantly or do we care?
If one is trading cars that much in those short of years, use it.
Life is short. GO play golf or something. People who keep these cars for years and years, now those people need to pay real close attention to level of charge.
Maybe.
Still the issue is so little difference and in the not to distant future, you'll not have to think about it at all with the Million mile bat. Perhaps.
StealthP3D
Well-Known Member
Oh, I want these other EV's to be successful as well. But when the full price and specs were released, it was obvious to me they would not sell in even as great of numbers as the S & X. And then we learned the price and specs were worse than indicated. With Tesla, the specs are often UNDERSTATED. So the gulf between Tesla and the others is HUGE.
But the thing that really stood out about the original post in this thread is how the media is not stepping forward to cover the disparity between what they previously reported and what the actual reality is. You can hear crickets chirping.
And Anton Whalman, who many reasonable, thinking people see as worse than an American traitor, just keeps doubling down on new falsehoods about America's new manufacturing economy that is being seeded and led by Tesla. Unless you value lies and deception, he is one of the most selfish and disgusting excuses for a human being I've ever had the displeasure of knowing about.
Yes that was my original intent - aimed at the media and all the anti-Tesla hypsters, not so much the car companies who I think have done a pretty good job for their first EV. I actually like the Taycan, and the iPace too though I'm not an SUV fan. I prefer their more traditional interior / dashboard. I gave serious consideration to both before I bought my S, even spending way too much time in the iPace online configurator. Until my wife jolted me back to reality by asking if I was actually serious about buying an electric Jaguar 
i do hope they succeed, and they seem to be doing well in Europe. I'm sure VW's entries will be a huge hit there when they launch, and in China too. As someone else pointed out above, it seems a big impediment in the US are dealerships - maybe they aren't as big of a roadblock to EV sales in Europe? I met up with a Kona EV owner at an EV car show last month, and that also seems to be a great car, though only being sold in compliance states so far. He had to drive 400 miles to get it. What a shame - he said he drove both the EV and the gas powered one, and hands down the EV blows the other away. But the local dealership wasn't interested in even ordering it for him. How many lost sales opportunities are they missing? So short sighted.
i do hope they succeed, and they seem to be doing well in Europe. I'm sure VW's entries will be a huge hit there when they launch, and in China too. As someone else pointed out above, it seems a big impediment in the US are dealerships - maybe they aren't as big of a roadblock to EV sales in Europe? I met up with a Kona EV owner at an EV car show last month, and that also seems to be a great car, though only being sold in compliance states so far. He had to drive 400 miles to get it. What a shame - he said he drove both the EV and the gas powered one, and hands down the EV blows the other away. But the local dealership wasn't interested in even ordering it for him. How many lost sales opportunities are they missing? So short sighted.
Glad I could help you out.
I don't care what people charge to. But what I've now seen over 7 years of ownership and 8 years on this forum is each generation of owners 1) not reading the manual, 2) posting wildly divergent charging "guidance" on the forum and god knows where else, 3) freaking out when their rated range shows any variability or degradation, 4) giving each other destructive advice about "balancing" or "re-calibration".
Battery sweet spot for longevity is 50%. So sure... if you care about perhaps 1 or 2% difference in degradation over life of your car, go ahead and daily charge to 70% or 80% instead of 90% so that your average state of charge is closer to 50%. But then, don't complain if the calibration of Tesla's estimate of remaining range goes off kilter. Because it needs to have occasional charges of 90% or more to stay accurate. And, don't complain if cells get imbalanced, because (at least several years ago) the BMS didn't balance cells at less than 90%.
When Model S first shipped, there were only 2 settings: Range (100%) and Daily (93%). I forget why they added the slider. I'm sure someone will remind me. But it sure created a lot of stress and misinformation among owners.
I know the battery stuff got off topic, but thanks for sharing as I'm still learning. I keep my cars 10 years, and have flexibility in charging, so I'd like to do what's "right" for battery longevity, but my head is spinning trying to decipher everything I read on forums. I was trying to do the 20%-80% thing based on others' recommendations, and minimizing charging cycles. But a coworker who's 2013 S85 is over 120k said he charges to 90% every night and he's only lost 10% of range so far. I've already lost 5% at least based on the estimator, though half of that was when I upgraded to 28.2, so maybe Tesla tweaked the estimator? It did freak me out a bit, as I thought I was past the initial loss period and I'd start seeing more of a 1-2%/yr drop.
But now I'm charging to 90%, and recharging once I get below 100 miles of range (45 mile commute RT, so results in charging about twice a week). Gut feel is charging every night seems wrong - am I being too anal?
But now I'm charging to 90%, and recharging once I get below 100 miles of range (45 mile commute RT, so results in charging about twice a week). Gut feel is charging every night seems wrong - am I being too anal?
Old - Range (100%) / Standard (93%)
New - Trip (100%) / Daily (90%)
Slider - My recollection on the change was that it impacted EPA rating, marketing, branding, government incentives, tax rebates/refunds, or somesuch. Some segment of the ownership population requested it, but at least some believe the former was the trigger for the change actually going in.
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Hey thank you for the response. My use of 80% was based on lots of posts here on this forum, and was sorta the compromise between the higher end (90%, which I thought was in the manual, could be wrong) and a lower end (didn't know how low), and the possible variability of the % display not being an accurate reflection of real voltage. I do charge to 100% semi-frequently due to longer trips, so it's good news that the calibration is probably correct. If the sweet spot is indeed 50%, my daily driving would be fine with that. However, like you said, if my current practice of charging to 80% brings a 1-2% degradation of a 230 mile charge to about 3 miles off the top at the endlife cycle of the car, it's not really much anyone should sweat about.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/model_s_owners_manual_north_america_en_us.pdf
page 146 said:
If anyone has reason to believe the explicit guidance in the owner's manual is incorrect or misleading, the responsible thing to do is to open a discussion with Tesla to get it rectified properly -- update the owner's manual, inform employees via corporate email, etc.
Yes I read that but I also have heard plenty of owners who think this is a CYA thing to minimize people forgetting to charge and running out of juice, resulting in bad publicity for Tesla. No proof of course, and contacting Tesla is useless because if it's true they will just stick to the corporate line the lawyers gave them and not admit why.
The phrasing is pretty explicit:
This doesn't say anything about "charge available for use" convenience, so if they don't mean what they said explicitly then it's not "CYA" it's lying. If you think they're lying, there are a few avenues that don't involve "what I hear some people say". /shrug
Can you please get the units right? Battery capacity is measured in kWh.
"KW/hr" makes no sense. Charging rate is measured in kW.
Yay. You got the units right. E-trons per Charging | Audi USA can be DC FCed. Since it's a VW product, that means it's going to be SAE Combo.
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