Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3

[buyer123456]

It would be, if the distinction was real.
Can you please refer me (and the rest of us on this forum) to any Tesla links that document that distinction?
Not what you think, believe, or would like to see, but what Tesla declares as 100% appropriate situations for using EAP?

I certainly did not see any such references after re-reading the Tesla Model 3 manual earlier today, but perhaps, there is another AEP-specific document that clarifies this.

Tesla TM3 manual is written to CYA for all possible EAP issues under all conceivable scenarios, and it makes no distinction to which you are alluding. Cross-traffic or not, traffic in lanes (partially or fully) or empty road, highways speeds or not, straight roads or curvy - there are disclaimers that declare that EAP may not work under any and all of the above scenarios.

Which is a right thing to document if you are a Tesla lawyer.
But it is an extremely unhelpful set of instructions to read if you are a Tesla owner.

Per TM3 manual, nothing in EAP is expected to work right.
If it does - consider yourself lucky. But expect a fail, and be ready to take over. At all times.

Which is fine with me.
But I think it's grossly unreasonable to blame another driver for having used EAP under wrong circumstances and gotten into an accident.

There are no right circumstances to rely on EAP, per TM3 manual.
Caveat emptor.

Thanks for the post, that is my impression too reading the manual. So basically it is to use it at your own risk, or not use it at all(or even not order it in the first place).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So basically it is to use it at your own risk

Yes. Driving is also at your own risk, and when AP is used as intended in limited scenarios with driver 100% alert, monitoring, and in control of the vehicle, I think it will likely reduce those driving risks slightly. If used otherwise, it may increase risk (possibly increase risk a lot).

 

[Nocturnal]

Thanks for the post, that is my impression too reading the manual. So basically it is to use it at your own risk, or not use it at all(or even not order it in the first place).

If you intend to use it counter to Tesla's guidance then yes, I would not order it. It is not ready for somebody to take a nap or watch a video on their phone.

This is true technically. I have been on test drives from the Tesla store where I was encouraged to turn on EAP on surface streets. This is human nature. When I had my EAP trial I did it all the time. I suspect so do you Knightshade. If Tesla REALLY wanted us to use EAP only on highways without crossing traffic, they would have the feature unavailable on other roads, as in Cadillac's supercruise system.
So my point is even smart guys can make poor decisions based on previous experiences with the EAP system. You get comfortable and then when a failure point/case arrives you are not ready to take over in time.
Even Elon has said that most EAP accidents happen to experienced users.

"If Tesla didn't want me to drive at 150mph and crash then they wouldn't let me hit 150 if I wasn't on a closed track".

You could turn old fashioned cruise control on with ANY vehicle that had it at any time. If I had done this with my old car and hit a wall going 80 on a surface street, I wouldn't be saying that Toyotoa must not have cared where it I used it.

​

 

[afadeev]

It would be, if the distinction was real.

It is. it's right there in the manual.

You quoted it, but appear to have not understood it?

I quoted all the relevant parts that support my thesis.
You failed to do so to support yours.

Please do so, or disclaim your posts as wishful thinking.
Thanks in advance,

a

 

[Knightshade]

I quoted all the relevant parts that support my thesis.
You failed to do so to support yours.

On the contrary- I pointed out your own evidence directly contradicts your claims and supports mine.

Then suggested you go re-read your own cited portion of the manual since you've obviously missed the details and specifics of what the text actually says- which, again, directly contradicts your own claims about it.

So, please do so, and disclaim your posts as directly contradicted by the actual text of the manual.

Thanks in advance



Seriously though- the manual makes clear what types of roads/conditions AP is intended to be used on versus where it's not intended to be used...and then also, as includes a separate list of things describes situations in those locations where it's intended to be used that you should take extra care to be insuring you're overseeing the system as you're supposed to, rather than simply assuming it will react correctly 100% of the time to those situations.

(if the car could correctly react 100% of the time to all situations in its domain it would be a level 3 system or higher after all- and it's explicitly not)

Here's an example:

First type (tells you where it should/should not be used):

Autosteer is intended for use only on highways and limited-access roads with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic.

Do not use Autosteer on city streets, in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present

And the second type (something to be aware of when using it IN THOSE LOCATIONS ITS INTENDED TO BE USED)

Autosteer is not designed to, and will not, steer Model 3 around objects partially or completely in the driving lane. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to take appropriate action.

I find it hard to believe you honestly can't tell the distinction there.

Again- the NHTSAs own report on the first under-trailer accident is pretty explicit about that distinction being there, and cites it as one of the reasons the car wasn't, at all, at fault, and the driver was. Same for this second, quite similar, accident where again the driver was using the system somewhere it's explicitly not intended to be used per the manual.

 

[StellarRat]

Yep. I don't use it in cross traffic situations. That's why I don't use it in town. I think using it on a road where it is high speed traffic with crossing traffic is fairly suicidal.

Suicidal is right. The system was designed and behaves as intended and designed. Its all assistive, YOUR the DRIVER of any current automobile on the planet for public roads anywhere Tesla included and more so.

Anything happens outside of the ordinary, its your fault 1000%. No court case, no money and probably no life or life of others.

IF the car was meant to stop for any object it would never move. Your eyes are the eyes of the car.

Tell that to everyone buying a Tesla today and they would probably walk away from it. Most do not understand what is actually happening.

Oldschool496, please don't Fox News my post! The full quote is: "Yep. I don't use it in cross traffic situations. That's why I don't use it in town. I think using it on a road where it is high speed traffic with crossing traffic is fairly suicidal."

I think it's fine when used as designed aka on the freeway.

 

[N5329K]

Long, long ago, Cessna concluded that tailwheel airplanes could be hard to land and this was keeping people from becoming pilots and buying Cessnas. So they redesigned their line to include “tricycle” gear airplanes with nose wheels.
What did they call them? Land-O- Matic. They were easier to get in and out of, taxi and yes, even easier to land. But I’m pretty sure nobody thought they could point the nose at the numbers, break out lunch, a book or climb in back and take a nap while the Land-O-Matic did the rest.
Fast forward to EAP and “Full Self-Driving” (oxymoronic as that is). The commercial impulse...getting more people to buy your widget....is the same. Unfortunately, the people who use those widgets are not.
Robin

 

[Oldschool496]

don't Fox News my post

Your too funny!

 

[Oldschool496]

The commercial impulse...getting more people to buy your widget

Yes, for me the whole banana is the electric car part of this equation. Thats because since I was a kid and later working on cars before I got my license the whole thing of gas and oil cars seemed to be just a waste. Archaic in fact, horse and buggy.

There has to be another way. Then the EV-1s short life and others more obscure.

SO buying a Tesla for the pure fact it was electric/dependable with range and had some whistles aboard, well that was just the cherry.

We are at least 3-4 years into this whole idea of driverless cars serious talk and its wearing on me.

At first, I was amused at the idea, excited for FSD. I'm glad I did not base my decision on it. I guess thats why I was pretty damn comfortable with buying AP-1 at the very end or near end of its revision period. Not the smartest financially really, but it works completely as intended very well.

Knowing full well processes in developing computers coming from the Bay Area and the whole computer industry at one short lived time.

Last night I just started watching Game of Thrones, 8 seasons hence. I guess I am in no hurry here.

 

[Msjulie]

This whole discussion points out my (some will say irrational) reasons/desire not to have the lane departure steer-back-in-lane default to ON every day.. but since my car isn't getting updated for whatever reasons, I can't say whether it will really make me uncomfortable or not yet..

 

[N5329K]

Yes, for me the whole banana is the electric car part of this equation. Thats because since I was a kid and later working on cars before I got my license the whole thing of gas and oil cars seemed to be just a waste. Archaic in fact, horse and buggy.

Completely agree. ICE cars are just gasoline powered heaters that throw off a little motion as waste.
Robin

 

[GolanB]

CR released an article that was not very favorable towards Tesla's implementation of computer assisted driving (NoA). They knocked its decision making, compared its driving to an inexperienced teenager, and concluded that it was essentially more trouble than its worth by stating:

“This isn’t a convenience at all,” says CR’s Fisher. “Monitoring the system is much harder than just changing lanes yourself. Using the system is like monitoring a kid behind the wheel for the very first time. As any parent knows, it’s far more convenient and less stressful to simply drive yourself.”
​

Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot Requires Significant Driver Intervention

 

[Swampgator]

CR released an article that was not very favorable towards Tesla's implementation of computer assisted driving (NoA). They knocked its decision making, compared its driving to an inexperienced teenager, and concluded that it was essentially more trouble than its worth by stating:

“This isn’t a convenience at all,” says CR’s Fisher. “Monitoring the system is much harder than just changing lanes yourself. Using the system is like monitoring a kid behind the wheel for the very first time. As any parent knows, it’s far more convenient and less stressful to simply drive yourself.”
​

Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot Requires Significant Driver Intervention

I would completely agree with their opinions IME

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

CR released an article that was not very favorable towards Tesla's implementation of computer assisted driving (NoA). They knocked its decision making, compared its driving to an inexperienced teenager, and concluded that it was essentially more trouble than its worth by stating:

“This isn’t a convenience at all,” says CR’s Fisher. “Monitoring the system is much harder than just changing lanes yourself. Using the system is like monitoring a kid behind the wheel for the very first time. As any parent knows, it’s far more convenient and less stressful to simply drive yourself.”
​

Tesla's Navigate on Autopilot Requires Significant Driver Intervention

So true. It is nice to have CR around. Provides some sanity. Looking at people raving about ULC NoA on Twitter, you could definitely get a very rosy impression about ULC!

NoA is relatively useless. AP is good in a very narrow range of conditions - very light traffic, and very heavy traffic - and only in the ODD of course.

Fortunately it is beta and will hopefully get much better- and hopefully is not limited by the 2.5 hardware as CR thinks.

 

[Knightshade]

FWIW I've found ULC NoA to be...fairly good. And I use EAP for about 95% of ~70-80 mile of driving a day.

Not perfect, i occasionally have to cancel a change because I have more context/understanding of what's coming up than the car does... but better than not using it in general... (to the point I've turned off the audible warning and just leave vibrate on)

I don't drive in SoCal traffic though.


I do think HW3 will be interesting when they finally get the larger NNs running, and we start getting some real ideas how much current capabilities are limited by the computer power... versus how much they might be limited by the sensor suite (range of cameras or lack of rear radar to deal with fast-approaching cars in adjacent lanes for example)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

FWIW I've found ULC NoA to be...fairly good. And I use EAP for about 95% of ~70-80 mile of driving a day.

The thing that really turned me against it (I went back to lane change confirmation), is that it kept on putting on the turn signal when someone was next to me, or in my blind spot. Who does that? Simply is not something that is done. It is not like it did not know - car and lane marker went red, etc. Easy fix.

There are other things. But In general my complaints are related to the programming and less the sensor capability - I don’t expect that it will ever be able to anticipate someone in the fast lane at 30mph closing speed - I will of course need to be alert for that, always.

 

[mongo]

The thing that really turned me against it (I went back to lane change confirmation), is that it kept on putting on the turn signal when someone was next to me, or in my blind spot. Who does that? Simply is not something that is done. It is not like it did not know - car and lane marker went red, etc. Easy fix.

Isn't signaling the only way to convey to other drivers your desire to change lanes? I do that all the time so that there ends up being a space to change into.
(Unless you are in an offensive driver area when signaling reduces the chance for a lane change)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Isn't signaling the only way to convey to other drivers your desire to change lanes? I do that all the time so that there ends up being a space to change into.
(Unless you are in an offensive driver area when signaling reduces the chance for a lane change)

No, I always wait for an opening (unless it is extremely busy of course). There is no sense in stressing out other drivers. The incidents I quoted did not occur in heavy traffic.

 

[GolanB]

The thing that really turned me against it (I went back to lane change confirmation), is that it kept on putting on the turn signal when someone was next to me, or in my blind spot. Who does that? Simply is not something that is done. It is not like it did not know - car and lane marker went red, etc. Easy fix.

There are other things. But In general my complaints are related to the programming and less the sensor capability - I don’t expect that it will ever be able to anticipate someone in the fast lane at 30mph closing speed - I will of course need to be alert for that, always.

It does seem that NoA violates some basic rules of etiquette and under some conditions, laws of passing. I will say it has gotten better, but the primary reason I did not engage it initially was that it drove like a rascal. These days I tend not to enable NoA because I don't care for its lane-changing decisions, and prefer to exit and change freeways on my own.

From CR:

The feature cut off cars without leaving enough space and even passed other cars in ways that violate state laws, according to several law enforcement representatives CR interviewed for this report. As a result, the driver often had to prevent the system from making poor decisions.​

 

[Oldschool496]

(Unless you are in an offensive driver area when signaling reduces the chance for a lane change)

That area would be SO. Florida. You signal, that means don't let him in here. I single early a blip to warn them you better get moving or I am coming over. It works around here just one pop and they start moving past you pretty fast.