Another tragic fatality with a semi in Florida. This time a Model 3

[buyer123456]

I've listed some examples below:

On page 39:

Valet Mode When Model 3 is in Valet mode, the following restrictions apply: • Speed is limited to 70 mph (113 km/h). • Maximum acceleration and power are limited. • Front trunk and glovebox are locked. • Home and Work locations are not available in the navigation system. • Voice commands are disabled. • Autopilot convenience features are disabled. • The Allow Mobile Access setting is disabled.

On page 65:

Features These Autopilot safety features are available on all Model 3 vehicles: • Lane Assist (see Lane Assist on page 84). • Collision Avoidance Assist (see Collision Avoidance Assist on page 86). • Speed Assist (see Speed Assist on page 89). • Auto High Beam (see High Beam Headlights on page 48). These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full SelfDriving Capability packages: • Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 67). • Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 73). You can enable/disable Autopilot features and in some cases, control how they work. To access settings for Autopilot features, touch Controls > Autopilot.

Page 67:

Warning: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is designed for your driving comfort and convenience and is not a collision warning or avoidance system. It is your responsibility to stay alert, drive safely, and be in control of the vehicle at all times. Never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately slow down Model 3. Always watch the road in front of you and be prepared to take corrective action at all times. Failure to do so can result in serious injury or death.

If the goal is driving comfort and convenience as stated, then the system really really should not allow drivers to be hands off and not attentive.

Those poor souls paid with their lives by misunderstanding what this primitive system is meant to do ....

 

[jerry33]

If the goal is driving comfort and convenience as stated, then the system really really should not allow drivers to be hands off and not attentive.

Those poor souls paid with their lives by misunderstanding what this primitive system is meant to do ....

Just bear in mind that without AP, far more people have the same kind of accidents. The real issue is not AP, but the lack of side guards on trailers. A perfect AP would have saved two (or maybe three) people. Side guards would have saved around 400.

 

[buyer123456]

Uh...the current system doesn't allow hands-off or a not attentive driver.

And never will.

Again that's an eventual goal of the more advanced FSD system, with more advanced HW, but it's not here yet (and won't be for a while).

AP still allows hands off for, say, 5-10 seconds? If the system is for convenience, once the hands are off for a millisecond, AP should have disabled already.

And Tesla's AP currently does not tract attentiveness, so that seems to be a design hole that can cause lives.

 

[Joshan]

some people are just unrealistic it seems and want big brother to hold their hand and tell them everything they can and cannot do or it is seomeone elses fault.

What ever happened to being self aware and responsible for yourself?

 

[buyer123456]

Just bear in mind that without AP, far more people have the same kind of accidents. The real issue is not AP, but the lack of side guards on trailers. A perfect AP would have saved two (or maybe three) people. Side guards would have saved around 400.

That is true, there are rarely any trailers with side guards(a few do).

Can generic active cruise control prevent this type of accident, meaning, can current state-of-the-art radar catch the side of the trailer/container or something?

 

[Knightshade]

AP still allows hands off for, say, 5-10 seconds?

No, it just doesn't check constantly.

Read the manual (or the disclaimers when you first turn AP on) it's a hands-on system. Always.

It's requires the driver to be paying attention and ready to take over. Always.

 

[GolanB]

If the goal is driving comfort and convenience as stated, then the system really really should not allow drivers to be hands off and not attentive.

Those poor souls paid with their lives by misunderstanding what this primitive system is meant to do ....

When cars are finally at the point where we can take our hands off the wheel without a care in mind, we may find that they also retract or do not exist at all. There are a number of concept cars (such as: Peugeot e-LEGEND Concept | Peugeot UK and others from Mercedes) that have been designed in this way.

Until there is no steering wheel, its a pretty good indication you should use it.

 

[buyer123456]

When cars are finally at the point where we can take our hands off the wheel without a care in mind, we may find that they also retract or do not exist at all. There are a number of concept cars (such as: Peugeot e-LEGEND Concept | Peugeot UK and others from Mercedes) that have been designed in this way.

Until there is no steering wheel, its a pretty good indication you should use it.

Has the below thresholds(from an year-old article) been reduced in latest AP releases? 30, 45, 60 seconds is an eternity, right?

I think I have recently experienced 15-20 seconds audible warning, but 15 seconds@65mph is still 1430 feet!

And 60 seconds@65mph is 1.0833 mile!@#$!

Interestingly, the user manual only says this:

"it does not detect your hands on the steering wheel for a period of time, a flashing blue light appears at the top of the car status section of the touchscreen ...."

"The updated Autopilot on CR’s Model 3 gave our drivers with hands off the wheel a visible warning at 30 seconds (they were traveling at 65 mph on a nearby restricted-access highway), and an audible warning at 45 seconds. It turned off Autopilot at 60 seconds, locking our drivers out of using the system again until they turned off the car."

Tesla Autopilot Update Warns Drivers Sooner to Keep Hands on Wheel

 

[Knightshade]

Has the below thresholds(from an year-old article) been reduced in latest AP releases? 30, 45, 60 seconds is an eternity, right?

I think I have recently experienced 15-20 seconds audible warning, but 15 seconds@65mph is still 1430 feet!

And 60 seconds@65mph is 1.0833 mile!@#$!

"The updated Autopilot on CR’s Model 3 gave our drivers with hands off the wheel a visible warning at 30 seconds (they were traveling at 65 mph on a nearby restricted-access highway), and an audible warning at 45 seconds. It turned off Autopilot at 60 seconds, locking our drivers out of using the system again until they turned off the car."

Tesla Autopilot Update Warns Drivers Sooner to Keep Hands on Wheel

You seem to keep confusing:

How long you should have your hands off the wheel per the explicit written directions from Tesla (never)

and

How long you can GET AWAY WITH ignoring the instructions before the car will notice (15-60 seconds depending on conditions usually)


I mean you'd agree a car with NO driver assists you should always keep your hands on the wheel, right? Yet if your alignment is good on a straight/flat road, you can "get away with" not doing so for at least as long as APs warning checks.

That doesn't mean it's correct or safe operation of the car.

Autosteer is a hands-on feature. You must keep your hands on the steering wheel at all times

 

[buyer123456]

You seem to keep confusing:

How long you can GET AWAY WITH ignoring the instructions before the car will notice (15-60 seconds depending on conditions usually)

Is there any reason why drivers should be allowed to get away with hands off then, on a system that mandates hands-on?

My thinking is that customer behaviors drive this decision to provide "hands-off" allowance, as customers want the hands-off time to check their phones, eat their burritos, change their clothes, etc, etc.

But in the name of safety, and saving lives, is 0-second "hands-off" allowance too much, e.g. will customers riot against it?!? Just saying ....

I think I would be OK with 0-second allowance, how about you?

 

[Joshan]

because that logic is wrong and big brotherish. Should your car start if you are not buckled up? I could give you 100 more examples. It is NOT a Tesla issue.

 

[buyer123456]

Until there is no steering wheel, its a pretty good indication you should use it.

May be another issue is the steering wheel design, e.g. just putting your hands on it may not be detected as hands-on, sometimes the steering wheel needs to be slightly jolted for the warnings to go away.

So let's blame it on the steering wheel!

Ultimately, a plug at the back of the neck should be a good compromise, hands free!

 

[jerry33]

That is true, there are rarely any trailers with side guards(a few do).

Can generic active cruise control prevent this type of accident, meaning, can current state-of-the-art radar catch the side of the trailer/container or something?

Side guards are mandatory in Europe.

No. The NN software that is not out yet appears as if it will be able to do this. I'm guessing it will be able to at launch or shortly thereafter as I'm sure it's a top priority.

 

[verygreen]

I had performed some more unscientific experiments that are relatid to the topic at hand here and I guess some might find it interesting.

Has videos and stuff:

green on Twitter

 

[buyer123456]

I had performed some more unscientific experiments that are relatid to the topic at hand here and I guess some might find it interesting.

Has videos and stuff:

green on Twitter

"Speed is underestimated factor by many", this is worth repeating.

 

[GolanB]

I had performed some more unscientific experiments that are relatid to the topic at hand here and I guess some might find it interesting.

Has videos and stuff:

green on Twitter

@verygreen Thanks for posting. Fascinating stuff. What is especially intriguing to me is why Tesla does not leverage its early detection of the truck and pass those values to the detected object (which never leaves the line of sight) as it gets closer, computing only its closing distance. In every video, we see from a distance that the object is detected correctly, but as it gets closer, it gets confused (sometimes narrowing the size of the truck, sometimes not seeing the truck, and sometimes seeing multiple trucks), and also computes drivable roadway underneath.

It as if it has no memory at all, continually recomputing everything in its line of vision.

Why shouldn't Tesla assume that any roadway under a "truck" object is not drivable - in some places you can see that it shows a green drivable path right underneath the truck. When would this ever be true?

Early detection:

Size of Detected Truck Narrows:

Multiple Trucks Detected:

 

[Malbers]

"Speed is underestimated factor by many", this is worth repeating.

Absolutely. And, for the vast majority of the public, the issue isn't Tesla, but why does Europe require trucks to have side skirts, but the USA doesn't. In other words that is the issue that the media should emphasize.

 

[mongo]

@verygreen Thanks for posting. Fascinating stuff. What is especially intriguing to me is why Tesla does not leverage its early detection of the truck and pass those values to the detected object (which never leaves the line of sight) as it gets closer, computing only its closing distance. In every video, we see from a distance that the object is detected correctly, but as it gets closer, it gets confused (sometimes narrowing the size of the truck, sometimes not seeing the truck, and sometimes seeing multiple trucks), and also computes drivable roadway underneath.

It as if it has no memory at all, continually recomputing everything in its line of vision.

Why shouldn't Tesla assume that any roadway under a "truck" object is not drivable - in some places you can see that it shows a green drivable path right underneath the truck. When would this ever be true?

Early detection:

View attachment 414065


Size of Detected Truck Narrows:

View attachment 414066

Multiple Trucks Detected:

View attachment 414067

The object is detected, and the relative change is fairly good, but the absolute distance is inaccurate. Likely due it not contacting the road surface. For instance, with the trailer filling the screen, it is reporting 11m distance.

 

[GolanB]

Absolutely. And for the for the vast majority of the public, the issue isn't Tesla, but why does Europe require trucks to have side skirts, but the USA doesn't. In other words that is the issue that the media should emphasize.

There is push for this regulation in the United States, with some cities and private organizations already signing up - but it does not seem to be ubiquitous. It is not only considerably safer but for trucks traveling on freeways and long-distances, there are also fuel efficiency gains. Source: Truck Side Guards Resource Page

Unfortunately, our government has become increasingly polarized politically, and I believe it is becoming difficult to get things legislated with all of the distraction going on. Unfortunately, in this case, it is putting peoples lives at risk.

 

[GolanB]

relative change is fairly good, but the absolute distance is inaccurate.

I believe the relative change and re-detection passes is what is confusing Autosteering. The NN really seems to have a problem computing the borders of the truck - this should not be that hard, but yet it is clearly struggling with this once it gets closer - whereas when its at a distance it does a fairly respectable job.