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Another View about Taycan - It will be a strong competitor

lencap

Member
May 27, 2013
150
480
Raleigh, NC
Greetings!

I posted several comments about the Taycan in response to a post titled EPA mileage. Like many I thought that the low EPA range estimate would cause buyers to discount the Taycan, but failed to consider Porsche's marketing strategy and target audience. That post is here: Porsche Taycan EPA range

What changed my mind is a video review of the Taycan by Doug DeMuro that's posted here:

The video is pretty long - 35 minutes, and I watched the entire thing. In a nutshell Doug explores Porsche first, EV second in his review, and from that perspective the Taycan will be significant competition and the EPA mileage likely won't matter very much.

Checkout these video clip areas - Range: 7:43 time code (range appears to be 219 miles); Driving Experience - 28:15. Overall, a very impressive machine, and the design choices/EPA choices appear to be intentionally made to appeal to luxury performance purchasers, not true EV enthusiasts. As such, it's a different marketing approach and value proposition - and likely will be pretty successful.
 

wenkan

Member
Dec 31, 2018
582
533
Seattle
Buying a “sport EV” that can run only one session on track before heading to the chargers? For 200k?

(My Model 3 can run about 60min on track with a fully charged battery, usually I run 2 in the morning, go to charger and back to run another 2 in afternoon.)
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,989
12,033
San Diego
value proposition

I guess it depends on what you value!

I still think it's weird. It makes some sense if the major reason for the efficiency hit is the transmission or some issue with the way the EPA test "meshes" with where the Taycan is optimized. But it's a LOT (something like 3.5kW!) of extra power that is being dissipated somewhere, relative to Model S P100D.

Obviously it depends on where that heat is being generated & why, but in isolation, the Taycan would be a higher performing vehicle if it were more efficient. There would be less heat to dissipate (meaning more repeatable performance), and the battery could be made lighter with a higher C rating (resulting in better performance).

It'll be interesting to see how the efficiency looks at steady high speeds and how that compares to Tesla.

I think Porsche will very likely be trumpeting their much more efficient second-gen drivetrain for the second version of the Taycan, whenever that may be.
 

lencap

Member
May 27, 2013
150
480
Raleigh, NC
I agree with everyone's comments about efficiency and lack of range. My point is simply that those parameters aren't likely to deter a "Porsche fan". Their ICE cars are relatively efficient, often leading competitors by quite a bit, but you rarely - if ever - hear a 911 driver brag about MPG ratings. It's the driving experience, the brand heritage and the quality of the cars (real or imagined). Porsche has a long racing history and a brand panache that Tesla has yet to match - not faulting Tesla, but up until now people looking for a true performance EV had only one choice - Tesla. Now Porsche enters the fray, and their focus is more aligned with "car guys" looking for credibility, not necessarily pure EV guys or, to put it differently, they may look down on Tesla owners as "geeks", not car guys. (Sorry for the stereotyping, but I've owned Porsches in the past and have seen that behavior and attitude up close).
 

wenkan

Member
Dec 31, 2018
582
533
Seattle
I agree with everyone's comments about efficiency and lack of range. My point is simply that those parameters aren't likely to deter a "Porsche fan". Their ICE cars are relatively efficient, often leading competitors by quite a bit, but you rarely - if ever - hear a 911 driver brag about MPG ratings. It's the driving experience, the brand heritage and the quality of the cars (real or imagined). Porsche has a long racing history and a brand panache that Tesla has yet to match - not faulting Tesla, but up until now people looking for a true performance EV had only one choice - Tesla. Now Porsche enters the fray, and their focus is more aligned with "car guys" looking for credibility, not necessarily pure EV guys or, to put it differently, they may look down on Tesla owners as "geeks", not car guys. (Sorry for the stereotyping, but I've owned Porsches in the past and have seen that behavior and attitude up close).
There is no such “porsche fan” thing. Porsche ICE cars are attractive because they perform in the level of supercars with lower price tag. People love porsche ICE cars because they can spend less to get more.

Taycan, on the contrary, is more expensive and less competitive. A typical porsche lover would switch to Tesla for what they are looking for. Tesla is the new Porsche.
 

destructure00

Active Member
Mar 2, 2019
1,472
1,624
Scottsdale, AZ
Their ICE cars are relatively efficient, often leading competitors by quite a bit, but you rarely - if ever - hear a 911 driver brag about MPG ratings. It's the driving experience, the brand heritage and the quality of the cars (real or imagined).

The difference is that even if you get crap mileage, you can still stop just about anywhere and refuel. Cost is a non-issue, but at least the fuel is available. Maybe a track day requires a mid-day run to the gas station, grab some food, and back to the track. How's that going to work with the Taycan? Hard to have a driving experience when you can't drive the car.
 

Bet TSLA

Active Member
Dec 8, 2014
2,854
10,509
Cupertino, CA
Now Porsche enters the fray, and their focus is more aligned with "car guys" looking for credibility, not necessarily pure EV guys or, to put it differently, they may look down on Tesla owners as "geeks", not car guys.
And just how long are "car guys" going to put up with owning a pansy-mobile that gets crushed by any fool who can drop half the $$$ on a Tesla? The notion is (pardon the word) ludicrous. They'll stick with their gas Porsches and console themselves with it being a non-comparable category of car, for a little while. Then they'll all get Teslas.
 

XLR82XS

D M C
Jul 26, 2019
3,138
1,785
SWFL | Vegas
Taycan, on the contrary, is more expensive and less competitive. A typical porsche lover would switch to Tesla for what they are looking for. Tesla is the new Porsche.
Tesla is not the new Porsche. I'm a multiple Porsche owner and Tesla owner. I got a 3 to tackle daily duty and ~20K miles per year utilizing supercharger network. Taycan is in my future once the 3 has been retired. By then the Electrify America infrastructure will be vastly improved plus I won't be driving 20K miles per year.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
507
160
jacksonville fl
IMHO the bottom line is that the teslas are high performance sedans and the taycan is a high performance luxury sports car.

having owned model S's and a M3p, and now a taycan it is my opinion that the model S is a cushy car that rides like a an old cadillac, the M3p is a high performance but raw camry and the taycan rides like a proper sports car.

the tesla wins on the tech side of the equation but the taycan murders tesla on fit, finish and driving. range wise, forget EPA ratings, the difference in ranges, excluding the vaporware plaid model S, give a slight edge to the tesla but the taycan performs the same at all levels of SOC.
 

csanders90D

Supporting Member
Jun 10, 2016
125
172
San Diego, CA
...but the taycan performs the same at all levels of SOC.

That's nice that Porsche claims SOC has no effect, but real-world testing shows different results.

Here's a discussion of how the maximum power available changes with SOC and temperature. Included are lots of photos and explanation of the grey bars which indicate max power and max regain, so you can see the power limit decrease as SOC drops.

In addition to the decreased power, Launch Control (and overboost) is disabled around 30%:

And a video where a Turbo S at 56% charge gets beaten by a Turbo at 91% charge:

Lithium batteries naturally have more power available when they're near full charge. Since the battery is the largest and most expensive component, you want to squeeze all the performance possible from it. If the Taycan did really have the same power at all SOC, that would mean that the battery has underused potential when fully charged, and the motors, inverters, wiring, or some other part is underspecced and limiting the performance.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,463
Eastvale, CA
That's nice that Porsche claims SOC has no effect, but real-world testing shows different results.

Here's a discussion of how the maximum power available changes with SOC and temperature. Included are lots of photos and explanation of the grey bars which indicate max power and max regain, so you can see the power limit decrease as SOC drops.

In addition to the decreased power, Launch Control (and overboost) is disabled around 30%:

And a video where a Turbo S at 56% charge gets beaten by a Turbo at 91% charge:

Lithium batteries naturally have more power available when they're near full charge. Since the battery is the largest and most expensive component, you want to squeeze all the performance possible from it. If the Taycan did really have the same power at all SOC, that would mean that the battery has underused potential when fully charged, and the motors, inverters, wiring, or some other part is underspecced and limiting the performance.

You are welcome to track the Taycan TS in LA and Atlanta(?) "Porsche Experience Centers". In a 20 minute session, the first thing to give is the brakes, they get too hot. It accelerates pretty much the same out of the corners the whole time. How long did you think you were going to track one for?

IMO - The Taycan is the winner of the "EV I Love To Drive" award so far. Hard to justify $200k (taxes,etc) for a street car, but if you have the coin, it's a riot to drive.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
507
160
jacksonville fl
You are welcome to track the Taycan TS in LA and Atlanta(?) "Porsche Experience Centers". In a 20 minute session, the first thing to give is the brakes, they get too hot. It accelerates pretty much the same out of the corners the whole time. How long did you think you were going to track one for?

IMO - The Taycan is the winner of the "EV I Love To Drive" award so far. Hard to justify $200k (taxes,etc) for a street car, but if you have the coin, it's a riot to drive
Have you driven the taycan at the one of the PCEs? I have, and in an almost 2 hour session I had no instance of brakes failing, in fact if you drive the car properly during the session you don't use the brakes all that much, the brakes are only working when stopping the car from the few launches, which btw remain consistent regardless of SOC.
as for $200k, maybe if you spec out the very top turbo S with every option you could get to 200k, most cars being sold are the 4s variants which cost when well equipped in the $120-$140 range, costly yes but the porsche is not aimed nor every has been aimed at the mass market, excepting the cayanne or macans.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,463
Eastvale, CA
Have you driven the taycan at the one of the PCEs? I have, and in an almost 2 hour session I had no instance of brakes failing, in fact if you drive the car properly during the session you don't use the brakes all that much, the brakes are only working when stopping the car from the few launches, which btw remain consistent regardless of SOC.
as for $200k, maybe if you spec out the very top turbo S with every option you could get to 200k, most cars being sold are the 4s variants which cost when well equipped in the $120-$140 range, costly yes but the porsche is not aimed nor every has been aimed at the mass market, excepting the cayanne or macans.
I ran the Porsche Taycan Turbo S at the LA/Carson Experience Center. I ran the skidpan, kick-plate, autocross, drags, and their short road course. Most cars get hot when you push them hard on a road course, and the Taycan was no exception. It's ~5,300lb when I'm behind the wheel, and I'm WOT as much as possible. It was beginning to lose braking force at ~20 minutes, it coded, so I started to do cool-down laps. I was chasing a 911 Turbo S.

The one I drove had the Tech Package (HUD, ACC, etc), the dynamic suspension (PDCC), the clock, probably DCFC support, Burmeister audio, which is about $203k plus tax. Best I can figure, if you max out the options, then add 10% sales tax and fees, it's over $240k easy.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
507
160
jacksonville fl
maybe my instructor shaped my run through all the different stations to minimize such brake fade as I did the same as you in a turbo model and like I said I never noticed any sort of brake fade.
nonetheless I do not drive my vehicle any close to the levels driven at the PCE.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,463
Eastvale, CA
maybe my instructor shaped my run through all the different stations to minimize such brake fade as I did the same as you in a turbo model and like I said I never noticed any sort of brake fade.
nonetheless I do not drive my vehicle any close to the levels driven at the PCE.
I have a lot of seat time in high performance cars on road courses, so when it time to go to the road course, he let 'er rip in the 911 Turbo S lead car. Note that I was never in any danger, the pedal never made it all the way to the floor, but it was certainly headed there. When the warning light came on, I still had pedal left. There is very little drama involved in driving the Taycan at its limits; it is a confidence builder.
 

Douyon1

Member
Mar 8, 2021
12
2
US
There is no such “porsche fan” thing. Porsche ICE cars are attractive because they perform in the level of supercars with lower price tag. People love porsche ICE cars because they can spend less to get more.

Taycan, on the contrary, is more expensive and less competitive. A typical porsche lover would switch to Tesla for what they are looking for. Tesla is the new Porsche.
 
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