Anti-EV comments heard on my roadtrip so far

Having visited 44/50 US states and 250/424 US national parks in the past year in my LR Model 3, I’ve heard a lot of dumb questions.
Here are a few. (Links go to my non-commercial Wordpress blog about my EV parks travels without ads).
“What do you do about rain and puddles? Is that thing even waterproof?” — owner who saw me park in front of his Wyoming hotel in the rain.
“Well, those things don’t have much range” — heard through my EV car window in Teddy Roosevelt ND, Canyon de Chelly AZ, Gila Cliff Dwellings NM, Great Basin NV, Big Hole MT, Sand Creek Massacre CO, Dinosaur UT, Nicodemus KS, etc.
“Costs about the same to fill up as my truck, right?” — guy putting 35 gallons into his Ford F250 at $6 per gallon in California last year.
“But don’t you miss the romance? I love the roar, vibration, and sheer power of my Mustang.” — dude at red light before I hit 60 mph in 3 seconds.
“What do you do when you’re charging?” — discussion at Starbucks, burger joint, rest room, hotel, campground, museum, and while watching base jumpers at Snake River Canyon in ID.
“How do I plug in?” — unfortunate couple at remote TX Supercharger who rented a non-Tesla from Hertz without the slightest clue about EV’s, nor cables, nor adapters, nor PlugShare. But they were Premium Hertz members.
Interested how many of you hear similar comments about EV’s.

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

 

[THEbuz]

My dominant (like 80% of miles) use case for transport is for road trips to the mountains of CA. About 20% of that includes really remote and partially dirt road type places. So, I went on abetterreouteplanner and of course the tesla planner site, and I found that all the trips I could think of worked out fine, though they included sometimes 20 min charges at the last supercharger. But only for expensive, long-range EVs. So I sprang for the MYLR.

On my last trip, I went from SF bay area to Mono Lake in Feb., and that was extra fun because of some notoriously icy non-serviced roads. The MYLR did fine, with its very very non-winter tires. (Use the trick of "off-road assist", that really helps.) Note: I got in the car after a very cold night (I think 0 F), no scheduling or anything, and noticed absolutely no hesitation in moving, no reduced power, etc. (We got lucky, no ice storms or wet snow, so I can't really speak to the handles freezing or anything like that.)

As I have found on all my real-life road trips, as well as in my simulations, you gotta charge 10-20 min every 2-3 hours of driving, and you have to make sure you're charged up at the last supercharger. However, I have never taken the time for a restaurant meal while charging. In fact, I would point out that I barely have time to stretch, mess with something (jackets, glasses, etc.), and pee in the charge time. The longest charge I ever had, I ate sandwiches I brought, and didn't wait around more than 2 minutes. This works out nearly ideally for me.

I can certainly imgaine that you would lose a LOT of range with a canoe on top; I think I read that a cargo carrier on top can take 25% off range (dont quote me on that-can't find it in my notes). BUT I'm surprised you say that charging on road trips is a PITA, as I find the break time nearly ideal. So, I would like to ask for everyone here:

1) Where did you go? I'd like to try and map these myself. (I'm *really* curious here. I keep finding Superchargers in "gateway" towns near sierra access highways, so all the trips I mapped worked out fine.)

2) For other paddle-heads: how much efficiency do you figure you lost?

3) Do you know about charger surfing, and optimizing for more/ shorter charge times? This might make it all less of a PITA for you.

DON'T FORGET: ICE CARS LOSE EFFICIENCY IN THE MOUNTAINS - A *LOT* MORE EFFICIENCY LOSS

Now as much of this thread is about "the romance of ICE", I need to also share this little practical, not-so-romantic issue with some of you folks. Out here in the west, we got this thing called, "altitude", in our mountains. Mountain passes 8000-9000 feet are right in the way of getting to where you want to go in the mountains. Now, this significantly hurts your range in you EV, cause you have to spend the energy to get over them. HOWEVER, ICE cars need oxygen. Lots of it. If you take them where there is little oxygen, like a high mountain pass, you not only have to spend the energy to get them up there, but they have to do it at reduced efficency - VERY SUBSTANTIALLY reduced efficiency. Anyone who has driven around the high sierras, for example up tioga pass road from the east side, up to thrailheads near Mammoth, up towards Whitney Portal, knows what I'm talking about. You can practially see your gas needle drop as you look at it. BUT EVS ARE 100% IMMUNE TO THIS. No altitude effects because no carburator or injector. Sooo..... my friend in his diesel van who was driving around to trailheads during our weekend had to slip away to drive to the nearest town (like 12 miles) to fill up on diesel. I was a bit surprised, because I'm sure he "topped up" just as I did, before passing the last big town. Well, that was an extra 20+ gallons of diesel. That is no friggin' joke, because away from towns diesel is $6+/gallon - $120+. That's a few canoe paddles right there. And yer typical big-ass SUV used for outdoor recreation is no sipper. So, before you get too nostalgic for a 4WD pickup, van, or similar recreation vehicle to put your canoe in or on, fairly compare how it would do, and how much that would be in overall fuel costs. All I can say is YIKES.

Thanks in advance for letting us hear more details about your experiences. I am really and truly interested as a backcountry person.

-TPC

I am familiar with ABRP.
What is the “TESLA planner site”????

 

[GreenCoffee]

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

At the end of the day, we are simply talking about your opinion versus my opinion. I don’t mind hearing your opinion, but I refuse to bow down to the “superiority” of your opinion. You seem more interested in winning an argument/debate and less interested in having a discussion with shared ideas. I don’t need to be right. In the end, history will be the determiner to what degree you were right and to what degree I was right (on this topic, as to market adoption of EV’s). Candidly, while I am perfectly capable of writing up a thesis with citations, point-by-point, I have neither the patience or the time, nor do I care to. This forum is a pet hobby for me. I own a TESLA, and I have test driven the TESLA models I don’t presently own. I do a TON of research on this subject, because—ultimately—I am putting my money where my mouth is with several hundred thousand dollars invested in $TSLA. I believe in Elon, and I believe in TESLA and their products.

Cheers, mate.

I apologize I came across that way, I wasn't trying to "win" a debate or come across as close minded. I am open to logic/facts that would dictate the slow adaption of EVs; but I don't see anything other than short sighted opinions that say EVs are not going to dominate the very near future. Just like you, I put my $$ where my mouth is, and part of that comes from the research I have done, the history I have seen, and what I think the future holds. On that note though, I think EVs and energy will be much bigger than just Tesla... but who knows! Maybe Tesla will dominate energy of the future and you and I will be very rich men.

 

[ThePirate]

Hydrogen’s well less than 50% round trip efficient when you consider making it, compressing, storing and transporting it and then turning it back into electricity (electric > H2 > electric) vs closer to ~85% most battery plus distribution systems. That alone should see it reserved for applications like jets where weight really matters. Then you get to storage (pressurized tanks are impractical, matrixes are not there, etc) fueling safety, etc. In thus light sustainable fuels make far more sense for applications that can’t use batteries, while better batteries will work for those that can. Double the range with half the weight and charge time is a matter of time, at which point whey would you bother replacing batteries/ electricity with a whole new infrastructure that’s inherently roughly half as efficient in H2?

Hi Pete:

Thanks for that background.

What worries me the most about Hydrogen is that they are pushing it as "green". I saw somewhere that < 1% of hydrogen is currently green (IEA via google), i.e. > 99% of hydrogen is made with fossil fuels. So, let's imagine that USA has a prefect, 100% green Hydrogen system. OK, then cars, which typically last 30 years, are used for, let's say 10 years in the US, and then shipped to poorer countries in the south. Well, then, for the remaining 20 years of their lives, they will be burning hydrogen made in south america with dirty local fuels, e.g. by pemmex in mexico, where they are desperate to find something to do with their oil in a now-declining-demand world. So, USA drives development of hydrogen infrastructure, and it promulgates a super-inefficient fuel to be used all over the world. That would be really terrible.

I think hydrogen is likely important for first world airplanes, and probably heavy industry (but see the battery operated mine mega-trucks in Australia, Andrew Forrest of Fortescue Metals Group, though these are going to be converted to hydrogen eventually). *however*, right now, hydrogen is 90% loophole to allow fossil fuel companies to continue fueling climate catastrophe. We, as voters, should put rules in place to prevent that. If I were emperor, I would require every gram of hydrogen to be certified green before licensing any device or allowing any manufacturer or importation to make such devices. Let's not let them construct this loophole and boondoggle, which has been around as political misdirection since H.W. Bush's "hydrogen economy".

-TPC

 

[ThePirate]

I am familiar with ABRP.
What is the “TESLA planner site”????

It's pretty lame and limited, I think it's basically meany to be optimistic and sell cars. Anyway, its Go Anywhere | Tesla.

The one in your car is much more useful. (BTW google knew about the avalanche and closure on US 395 last week, but neither ABPR nor my Tesla, which is premium connected, knew about it. If any adverse conditions are possible, I would double check with google, as well as doing the planning in your car.)

-TPC

 

[rzn89]

That's because electric cars threaten to take away their way of life. I don't only mean mechanics, but people whose lifestyle is dominated by the experience of gas cars. Guys who socialize over cars. Modders, racers (noise makers), tinkerers, etc. Guys who bonded with their dads while working on cars and want to have that with their own kids one day. There's an emotional connection to the gas car.

Now tell me why such people shouldn't hate electric cars. Gas cars have been a part of Americana for generations now.

This is the same thing that has happened every step of the way in our history, starting with those bloody farmers who were destroying the hunter gatherer way of life. When I was a father in 6000BC I wanted to share my life's experience with my boy, but he's been seduced by the farming life.

Of course, there are also the people whose simple identity is wrapped up in their car. The stereotype is the redneck with the lifted truck. That's his ego he's driving around, and you want to replace that with a Tesla? He'll go down shooting before he'll give up his ego.

Lastly, you've got the people with a financial interest in gas cars. Dealers, salesmen, oil and gas companies, all the people who supply them, etc. The entire green industry is a tectonic shift in the world's economy, and there's undoubtedly some real hatred for what it is doing to the established industries.

This is part of the reason I bought one! I love how they piss people off, but if the haters drove one, they would realize that they are better than their ICE car. Mechanics, car dealers, oil and gas industries have always been shady and full of con artists. Not saying all of them are bad just the vast majority of them.

The horse and buggy, carrier pigeons, phone switch board operators, white pages etc all no longer exist. Things change over time.

 

[JB47394]

HOWEVER, ICE cars need oxygen. Lots of it. If you take them where there is little oxygen, like a high mountain pass, you not only have to spend the energy to get them up there, but they have to do it at reduced efficency - VERY SUBSTANTIALLY reduced efficiency.

This is only true for diesels. Gas vehicles with electronic fuel injection will monitor the air pressure and adjust the fuel injection to maintain combustion efficiency. There will be a loss of power because even once the gas pedal is floored, the amount of oxygen going into the cylinders is reduced and the engine will reduce the fuel volume to match. The rule seems to be 3% power loss per 1,000 feet. So if you go over a 10,000 foot pass, you'll lose ~30% of your engine's power by the time you reach the top.

 

[ThePirate]

This is only true for diesels. Gas vehicles with electronic fuel injection will monitor the air pressure and adjust the fuel injection to maintain combustion efficiency. There will be a loss of power because even once the gas pedal is floored, the amount of oxygen going into the cylinders is reduced and the engine will reduce the fuel volume to match. The rule seems to be 3% power loss per 1,000 feet. So if you go over a 10,000 foot pass, you'll lose ~30% of your engine's power by the time you reach the top.

That's really interesting, but it definitely belies experience. My honda civic I'm pretty sure has electronic fuel injection, but driving around Tuolemne meadows, just back and forth, it gets poor mileage, without going up and down Tioga. In addition, driving up from Lone pine toward Whitney Portal, or other roads around there, you get both no power AND you find you're really sucking down the juice. So, this sounds like a theoretical ideal, it doesn't jibe with my practical results. Perhaps what you're saying is true if the car is adjusted (timed?) for high altitude, but it isn't true for any ICE car I've ridden in. I confess I didn't do a careful apples-to-apples comparison, compare the same total vertical and slope at different altitudes, but I'd bet two-to-one at least that huge loss of efficiency is a general real-world result for gasoline cars. Almost everyone I know (except for the van I metioned earlier, about 50% sedan-type subarus, about 50% compact SUVs, mostly subarus) is a gas fuel-injected car and reports the same results.

-TPC.

 

[Petevb]

1) Where did you go? I'd like to try and map these myself. (I'm *really* curious here. I keep finding Superchargers in "gateway" towns near sierra access highways, so all the trips I mapped worked out fine.)

2) For other paddle-heads: how much efficiency do you figure you lost?

3) Do you know about charger surfing, and optimizing for more/ shorter charge times? This might make it all less of a PITA for you.


-TPC

1) Sorry, I only give up this spot to my closest friends. There are a limited number of islands that you can paddle to and camp on and I don’t need and more competition. I will say it was ~106 miles one way from the nearest supercharger with a stop a little over half way to rent and add the canoe. Lots of altitude, car very heavily loaded, a few nights with the car parked on shore losing charge, windy then dirt roads over the last ~15 miles.

2) Call it a 213 mile round trip, I think I came in back with 4 miles range left, I recall charging to an indicated 280+ miles of range (which was a long supercharger stop on my 2018 LRAWD with maybe 40k miles on it). Between the altitude gain, loading, etc I couldn’t say exactly what the canoe itself cut, but I was managing my speed to insure I had reserve to get back, and adding adding the canoe flipped me from “keeping up with traffic” to “driving like grandma” to make it back.

3) I’m an engineer, I used to race competitively as well as do crazy around the country races like One Lap of America, 5000+ mile road trips on multiple continents, etc. Which is to say I consider myself pretty good at both distance driving and charge time optimization. For work I’ve been doing this site visit about 2x per month for the last six months, just over 400 miles round trip from my house, and I’ll soon switch to another one which is slightly further. I need ~5-6 hours on site plus ~5.5 hours on the road at a high 70s average makes it a ~11 hour day with a single gas stop in a longer range gas car like a Prius. In my Model 3 it’s a 3 stopper (two works but it’s slower) and I cut about 5 mph from my cruise speed over two legs due to the location of the superchargers I game to hit. My M3 range is down to ~268 miles rated so newer cars would do better, but even they would turn the 11 hour day into a 12 hour day. Multiplied by 2x per month over a year that makes a difference. Clearly not relevant for many (i clouding me until recently) but for some it is.

 

[THEbuz]

I apologize I came across that way, I wasn't trying to "win" a debate or come across as close minded. I am open to logic/facts that would dictate the slow adaption of EVs; but I don't see anything other than short sighted opinions that say EVs are not going to dominate the very near future. Just like you, I put my $$ where my mouth is, and part of that comes from the research I have done, the history I have seen, and what I think the future holds. On that note though, I think EVs and energy will be much bigger than just Tesla... but who knows! Maybe Tesla will dominate energy of the future and you and I will be very rich men.

Ha-ha! Let’s hope so! Sorry if I got my panties in a bunch.

One thing seems clear: Total EV adoption appears to be imminent. I’m all in, as a tech lover, but I fear the potential of a “Minority Report” dystopian future.

 

[THEbuz]

It's pretty lame and limited, I think it's basically meany to be optimistic and sell cars. Anyway, its Go Anywhere | Tesla.

The one in your car is much more useful. (BTW google knew about the avalanche and closure on US 395 last week, but neither ABPR nor my Tesla, which is premium connected, knew about it. If any adverse conditions are possible, I would double check with google, as well as doing the planning in your car.)

-TPC

Thanks!

 

[GreenCoffee]

This is only true for diesels. Gas vehicles with electronic fuel injection will monitor the air pressure and adjust the fuel injection to maintain combustion efficiency. There will be a loss of power because even once the gas pedal is floored, the amount of oxygen going into the cylinders is reduced and the engine will reduce the fuel volume to match. The rule seems to be 3% power loss per 1,000 feet. So if you go over a 10,000 foot pass, you'll lose ~30% of your engine's power by the time you reach the top.

A modern turbocharged diesel engine suffers very little power loss at altitude, recently went cross country in my 2020 chevy truck with the 3 liter inline 6 turbocharged diesel and I did not notice any power loss even above 12,000 feet at the continental divide spot in Colorado, I however, did notice a power loss at altitude!

 

[cwerdna]

I seriously considered a Mirai but the dealbreakers for me were (1) infrastructure - it doesn’t exist outside of southern CA - what if I want to drive outside this region? (2) regulations -

...

Again, very limiting and more constraints I’d rather not have to deal with in case I ever move or want to take a trip - never mind the new fuel tanks developed by Toyota are darn nearly indestructible, (3) Cost - even more than Tesla, with less performance.

It does exist outside So Cal. It has for awhile. It is limited though. I'm in Silicon Valley. I've seen Mirais and a few Nexos (rare). Sightings of both are rare. There used to be at least 1 at my work. There's an H2 fueling station just a fuel miles down the road from my work. When I used to go that way to leave work, I'd often see H2 FCEVs fueling there and sometimes a line for the H2 pump.

A co-worker before he joined my company did have an H2 FCEV. He did complain about fuel shortage problems and I've seen some notable ones reported in the media (local and not) like Bay Area experiences hydrogen shortage after explosion and Northern California fuel-cell drivers still left dry since June explosion.

Station Status | Station Status is the status page. Many of those are in the Bay Area (e.g. Campbell, Concord, Cupertino, Emeryville, Fremont, Hayward, Mill Valley (north of SF), SF, San Jose, Saratoga, Sunnyvale, etc..) Going outside CA and into more remote areas can be an issue though along w/shortages/station problems.

 

[Fazooley]

Admittedly I was one of these non believers for a long time. I've wanted a Tesla MS for as long as I could remember but never felt the battery lasted long enough and the charging tech just wasnt there. I told myself eventually that day will come when all I don't like about them catches up and then I'll pick one up. Hence the MSP, when this came to fruition with 350+ miles of range and a charging architecture that could go from 10-80% in about 20 or so minutes I figured this is more then acceptable, and I picked one up straight away. I've been loving this thing for the last two months however would I replace my ICE vehicles with an EV, not a shot. The amount of room inside of my Mercedes is incomparable to the MSP, when I have 4 adults going out somewhere and they want to be comfortable there is no comparison. In addition when I want to enjoy myself and hear an engine make some noise I take out one of my exotics, problem solved. Honestly I don't see EV's taking over anytime soon as the grid cannot handle it. Can you honestly imagine if all ICE cars were gone today, how would anyone charge? They don't believe in Nuclear so until that day comes we will never have enough power when every household has multiple EV's like ICE cars now. At least in the US we just don't have the infrastructure for it

 

[JB47394]

Can you honestly imagine if all ICE cars were gone today, how would anyone charge? They don't believe in Nuclear so until that day comes we will never have enough power when every household has multiple EV's like ICE cars now. At least in the US we just don't have the infrastructure for it

The key there is "gone today". That won't happen, so there will be a period of transition. Can the grid handle even a gradual conversion to all electric cars? Here's one man's take on that question.

 

[JB47394]

A modern turbocharged diesel engine suffers very little power loss at altitude, recently went cross country in my 2020 chevy truck with the 3 liter inline 6 turbocharged diesel and I did not notice any power loss even above 12,000 feet at the continental divide spot in Colorado, I however, did notice a power loss at altitude!

Well, sure. The turbocharger's primary purpose is to boost air pressure.

 

[Rocky_H]

Can you honestly imagine if all ICE cars were gone today, how would anyone charge?

Oh, FFS!! This is one of those nonsensical anti-EV propaganda talking points. It is trying to look at a situation from decades out into the future and pretending that it exists right now, immediately in the present, and then pointing at this fictional impossible construct and saying it doesn't work.

Well of course that doesn't work, because the far future can't exist right now in our present.

Let's try that with another analogy--before any airports were built. So someone complains about how "Can you honestly imagine if the sky was full of airplanes right now? They'd have nowhere to land." Right, but that also makes no sense, because as more airplanes are developed and built over time, airports will be built over time too.

Honestly I don't see EV's taking over anytime soon as the grid cannot handle it. [...] They don't believe in Nuclear so until that day comes we will never have enough power when every household has multiple EV's like ICE cars now. At least in the US we just don't have the infrastructure for it

And for the rest of this, you'd better go and inform the electric utilities that they are conducting their business wrong then. They don't have a problem of "never have enough". It's a problem of uneven demand at different times. They still offer cheap prices to try to motivate people to use MORE at night, when they have excess capacity! If they had actual shortage of amount, they wouldn't be doing that.

Demand leveling is a real problem, but that is mostly due to air conditioning during summer afternoons. When demand drops off and electric cars charge overnight, that isn't where the problem is.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

They don't believe in Nuclear

Who is "They" ?


...and why does everyone ass-u-me that EVs will continue to only have structural battery packs?

Maybe there'll be removable/replaceable ones at some point, or maybe vehicles with both structural and replaceable batteries that'll let you carry extra for extended range or "instant" turnaround recharging - also replaceable batteries would be the perfect thing for levelling or absorbing extra grid output

 

[JB47394]

...and why does everyone ass-u-me that EVs will continue to only have structural battery packs?

Everyone doesn't. Nio is pushing battery swap technology hard in China. There are a number of others, including Better Place (2007-2013), which went bankrupt because of the cost of having so many expensive battery packs. Tesla even played around with battery swapping in 2014. I'm not a fan of battery swapping because I like being independent of corporations as much as possible, but swapping may catch on.

 

[ThePirate]

Admittedly I was one of these non believers for a long time. I've wanted a Tesla MS for as long as I could remember but never felt the battery lasted long enough and the charging tech just wasnt there. I told myself eventually that day will come when all I don't like about them catches up and then I'll pick one up. Hence the MSP, when this came to fruition with 350+ miles of range and a charging architecture that could go from 10-80% in about 20 or so minutes I figured this is more then acceptable, and I picked one up straight away. I've been loving this thing for the last two months however would I replace my ICE vehicles with an EV, not a shot. The amount of room inside of my Mercedes is incomparable to the MSP, when I have 4 adults going out somewhere and they want to be comfortable there is no comparison. In addition when I want to enjoy myself and hear an engine make some noise I take out one of my exotics, problem solved. Honestly I don't see EV's taking over anytime soon as the grid cannot handle it. Can you honestly imagine if all ICE cars were gone today, how would anyone charge? They don't believe in Nuclear so until that day comes we will never have enough power when every household has multiple EV's like ICE cars now. At least in the US we just don't have the infrastructure for it

Regarding "They don't believe in Nuclear..." A "new" nuke is scheduled to come on-line in Georgia, the Vogtle plant. It was "started" in something like 2006 (permit application) and so now in 2023, 17 years later, it should start generating electricity at a cost of billions - that is $USD billions more than the projected cost. It is more than 100% overbudget.

In the majority of cases, wind or solar are the cheapest form of new energy, and construction is fast and easy. The rate-limiting step is apparently getting connected to the grid, then permits. So, whatever you think about nukes, it appears they are dead in the water for the short and medium term because of cost, and could not contribute to electricity supply in less than several decades if someone went ahead with them anyway. (People talk a lot about a new generation of smaller reactors... an experimental reactor will take more time to come on line, not less, because of the need to license, prove, and scale that.) So it's hard to see Nukes as anything but a special lobbying niche (if someone stands to gain billions of dollars, it will happen somewhere somehow), or for that very very special region, let's say above the arctic circle, that somehow has no wind. But like, who cares about them if solar or wind is so much cheaper?

People tend to fly off the handle and let reason fly out the window with nukes. Germany turned off all their nukes because of Fukushima. Because of all that Tsunami risk in Germany...right? It needs to be pointed out that a good steady source of power for heating in Northern Europe is looking pretty valuable right now, and that may not have been a great idea before without replacing that with solar/wind. I encourage voters and rate payers to keep a cool head over these things, understand risk rationally, but always, always follow the money. And vote for whatever saves the climate in time to make a difference.