Anti-EV comments heard on my roadtrip so far

Having visited 44/50 US states and 250/424 US national parks in the past year in my LR Model 3, I’ve heard a lot of dumb questions.
Here are a few. (Links go to my non-commercial Wordpress blog about my EV parks travels without ads).
“What do you do about rain and puddles? Is that thing even waterproof?” — owner who saw me park in front of his Wyoming hotel in the rain.
“Well, those things don’t have much range” — heard through my EV car window in Teddy Roosevelt ND, Canyon de Chelly AZ, Gila Cliff Dwellings NM, Great Basin NV, Big Hole MT, Sand Creek Massacre CO, Dinosaur UT, Nicodemus KS, etc.
“Costs about the same to fill up as my truck, right?” — guy putting 35 gallons into his Ford F250 at $6 per gallon in California last year.
“But don’t you miss the romance? I love the roar, vibration, and sheer power of my Mustang.” — dude at red light before I hit 60 mph in 3 seconds.
“What do you do when you’re charging?” — discussion at Starbucks, burger joint, rest room, hotel, campground, museum, and while watching base jumpers at Snake River Canyon in ID.
“How do I plug in?” — unfortunate couple at remote TX Supercharger who rented a non-Tesla from Hertz without the slightest clue about EV’s, nor cables, nor adapters, nor PlugShare. But they were Premium Hertz members.
Interested how many of you hear similar comments about EV’s.

"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
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[nwdiver]

Honestly I don't see EV's taking over anytime soon as the grid cannot handle it. Can you honestly imagine if all ICE cars were gone today, how would anyone charge? They don't believe in Nuclear so until that day comes we will never have enough power when every household has multiple EV's like ICE cars now. At least in the US we just don't have the infrastructure for it

By the numbers:

The US added ~800,000 EVs in 2022. Assuming typical driving that's ~4MWh/EV/yr. (4MWh)(800,000) = 3.2TWh/yr

Renewables generation increased from 588TWh in 2021 to 683TWh in 2022. 95TWh more generation in 2022 vs 2021. Vogtle will add ~17TWh/yr for an absolutely mind blowingly insane cost of $34,000,000,000

So we're adding electric generation from wind and solar ~30x faster than we're adding EVs. We'll.... we'll be fine. We don't need to be wasting more $$$ on nuclear boondoggles.

 

[Fazooley]

Hows that wind and solar working out for Texas? How about Cali with rolling brownouts? Even EU who shutdown tons of plants are now reopening coal plants, COAL PLANTS to get energy as there rush to go green has backfired. We need reliable clean energy, I only see this accomplished with Nuclear. I know where I live every household has 2-3 cars, this is what a typical family has in there driveway. If you replicated this to everyone it's impossible for us to sustain. Now obviously this wont happen overnight, but unless theres some new technology that'll produce cheap power and immense amounts of it I have no idea how this will be accomplished. Mind you, nuclear is the cleanest of all power sources.

 

[Rocky_H]

Hows that wind and solar working out for Texas?

Very well, actually. OMG, you really have bought into the anti clean energy propaganda. I am really sorry that you were fed those lies about clean energy failing in Texas. Strangely those things work very well in other northern states where it is far colder. So.....it's not something wrong with the technology. Let's go ahead and talk about this one.

Most of the states are interconnected into larger multi-state regional grid systems. They can share power across state lines as needed. But also with that comes the responsibility of meeting certain standards. One of those is winterizing infrastructure to prevent damage and malfunction and stoppages from cold weather. Texas was a bit too independent and has refused to join to that larger grid, and also has continually refused to winterize, especially its natural gas pipelines, despite repeated warnings from agencies trying to sound the alarm of this vulnerability.

So that is where the vulnerability struck. The natural gas pipelines froze up, and the gas stopped and couldn't get to the power plants. That reality would not sound good in much of very fossil fuel dependent Texas, so this lie was concocted that what failed were the renewable energy sources, and it was promoted on certain types of media. Far too many people have believed it.

(I am trying really hard to not get specifically political.)

So if you want to learn more about this, there are plenty of places that will show the timeline of events and explain what really happened if you will look at other sources than whatever media you have apparently been reading or watching that gave you this idea. Here are some samples:

Why the Deep Freeze Caused Texas to Lose Power

Issues with natural gas supplies and the grid’s isolation both factored in to the massive outages

www.scientificamerican.com

Texas’ Big Freeze: The 2021 Power Crisis and the Lessons Learned One Year Later

What has changed in the Lone Star State since the lethal Winter Storm Uri struck? Are recent improvements enough to keep the grid humming through a similar disaster?

www.tdworld.com

One Year Later: The Texas Freeze Revealed a Fragile Energy System and Inspired Lasting Misinformation - Inside Climate News

Texas is recovering from this week’s winter storm, nearly a year after a much more severe set of storms led to a devastating failure of the electricity system and about 250 deaths. The February 2021 storms showed the fragility of the grid at a time when climate change is contributing to an...

insideclimatenews.org

How Texas’ power grid failed in 2021 — and who’s responsible for preventing a repeat

In the state’s power grid, electricity and natural gas are co-dependent. Here’s how the winter storm last year broke the system.

www.texastribune.org

We need reliable clean energy, I only see this accomplished with Nuclear.

I really have no problem with nuclear and would like to see it promoted and used more as part of diversified choices, but I certainly wouldn't say it is the "only" solution there, as you do. Wind and solar do have inconsistency issues, but they are so incredibly cheap production that buffering it with large battery banks is making it a consistent and reliable and cost effective system in many places.

but unless theres some new technology that'll produce cheap power and immense amounts of it

= solar. On large scale long term production contracts globally, energy is produced and sold for less than 2 cents per kWh. It is so absurdly cheap, that I was reading articles showing how instead of battery banking, it's just about cost effective to simply overbuild by multiples so even if production does drop off significantly, it still meets the need.

Mind you, nuclear is the cleanest of all power sources.

Definitely not. Hydroelectric would probably win that title, maybe tied with geothermal. But their weakness is that they depend on certain geological and terrain things that don't naturally exist everywhere. Most of the electricity produced in Idaho is hydroelectric from our mountain snow runoff through reservoirs.

 

[nwdiver]

Hows that wind and solar working out for Texas? How about Cali with rolling brownouts? Even EU who shutdown tons of plants are now reopening coal plants, COAL PLANTS to get energy as there rush to go green has backfired. We need reliable clean energy, I only see this accomplished with Nuclear. I know where I live every household has 2-3 cars, this is what a typical family has in there driveway. If you replicated this to everyone it's impossible for us to sustain. Now obviously this wont happen overnight, but unless theres some new technology that'll produce cheap power and immense amounts of it I have no idea how this will be accomplished. Mind you, nuclear is the cleanest of all power sources.

Solar and wind is working out great for Texas. It's actually saved the grid on several occasions. EVs don't need 'reliable' energy. That's the great synergistic relationship between EVs and renewables. >80% of EV charging can be matched with an abundance of renewables. We need an ABUNDANCE of clean electrical energy, I only see this accomplished with an energy source that's <$20/MWh. That's physically impossible if you're converting heat into electricity.

 

[Rocky_H]

That's the great synergistic relationship between EVs and renewables. >80% of EV charging can be matched with an abundance of renewables.

This is probably where a lot of the good useful innovation is going to come in in the next few decades. There are already a lot of products created but don't have wide market penetration yet of integrated smart storage systems or smart demand management products to balance this demand and excess. Smart water heaters are already in use in some countries where they are tied into the electric grid information signals to pipe excess energy at certain times to raise water temperatures by a little bit across thousands of homes to buffer that energy so it is less that will need to use at other peak times. Another variation on that is HVAC systems that can use excess energy at times to freeze ice in a storage tank at people's houses, which can then be used as a cold source for cooling. This doesn't have much uptake yet.

But yes, simple information and pricing motivation from the utilities with excess variable capacity can be signaled to customers to take it in their electric vehicles at certain times as a large scale storage mechanism.

 

[Petevb]

So we're adding electric generation from wind and solar ~30x faster than we're adding EVs. We'll.... we'll be fine. We don't need to be wasting more $$$ on nuclear boondoggles.

Hows that wind and solar working out for Texas? How about Cali with rolling brownouts? Even EU who shutdown tons of plants are now reopening coal plants, COAL PLANTS to get energy as there rush to go green has backfired. We need reliable clean energy, I only see this accomplished with Nuclear. I know where I live every household has 2-3 cars, this is what a typical family has in there driveway. If you replicated this to everyone it's impossible for us to sustain. Now obviously this wont happen overnight, but unless theres some new technology that'll produce cheap power and immense amounts of it I have no idea how this will be accomplished. Mind you, nuclear is the cleanest of all power sources.

If there was political will nuclear would make some sense as part of the solution. There isn’t (and we didn’t start a decade ago) so as a practical matter it’s not an option. Without political will even new modular nuclear reactors won’t be online in volume before storage solutions take care of renewable’s intermittency issues.

As for intermittency: don’t make the mistake of blaming that for Texas’s problems- that was good, old fashioned greed (not spending a small amount of money on weatherization packages that let windmills run just fine even in places like Alaska). Even then it turned out fossil fueled assets took a bigger hit than renewables during that cold snap. That said intermittency is an issue, but economics dictate that the solution won’t be making large amounts of clean base load generation like nuclear. Instead it will be far cheaper to make the loads themselves intermittent. EVs are part of the solution here, not the problem: as long as you’ve got a plug it’s easy to make cars charge when the wind blows or the sun shines, and one step further it’s not that hard to incentivize those same cars to discharge to prop up the grid when needed. Similarly storage of ultra-cheap renewable electricity for use in things like industrial heat is already well in range.

Stepping back suggesting nuclear is the solution is missing the forrest through the trees IMHO. It’s attractive to many because it means we don’t need to change the way we do things. Given the economics however it’s simply unrealistic.

We’ve seen a number of energy revolutions: whale blubber gave way to oil, coal and natural gas. Every revolution brought new technologies that exploited the new opportunities made possible by cheaper energy sources. Realize: we’re now in the middle of a new energy revolution- renewables. Energy from solar and wing is now an order of magnitude cheaper than that from nuclear in most places on earth… assuming you can figure out how to use it when it’s available. Given the economic incentive that’s happening. Fast. Go back just 5 years and renewables were generally more expensive that fossil fuels, so why bother working that problem? But the moment they got significantly cheaper lots of people started working on how that could be exploited. Most of those solutions haven’t come out the other end yet but they will. At this point it’s not a drag race nuclear can win IMHO.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Hows that wind and solar working out for Texas?

Pretty well actually. In fact Wind and Solar combined (and why not combine them?) was accounted for 34% of all electricity generation last year making it the single most used source. AND adoption of both are dramatically increasing

Wind and solar generated record 34% of ERCOT power in Texas Q1 2022

We need reliable clean energy

Actually no. What we really need is efficient energy usage and reduced energy wastage. Build better homes, insulate them properly, heat and light them with smarter devices, improve CAFE standards for vehicles etc etc


Wait ... who was it who tried to degrade CAFE standards?

 

[Minnie Pearl]

We need reliable clean energy

Actually no. What we really need is efficient energy usage and reduced energy wastage. Build better homes, insulate them properly, heat and light them with smarter devices, improve CAFE standards for vehicles etc etc
Wait ... who was it who tried to degrade CAFE standards?

Both would be preferable, but waste and inefficiency as well as massive transmission cost loss are friction points that should be addressed concurrently to boost a clean and cost effective future. Total grid failure due to nepo interconnectiveness is another thing I’m concerned about, but maybe I’ve watched too many EMP movies.

 

[Petevb]

Actually no. What we really need is efficient energy usage and reduced energy wastage. Build better homes, insulate them properly, heat and light them with smarter devices, improve CAFE standards for vehicles etc etc

Both would be preferable, but waste and inefficiency as well as massive transmission cost loss are friction points that should be addressed concurrently to boost a clean and cost effective future.

Even short term I believe efficiency is much less important than storage and load shifting. To illustrate: if you can buy all your electric power wholesale in the cheapest 4 hours of the day in areas of the Midwest with high wind penetration it’s less than free: utilities will currently actually pay you to take power on most days when the wind is blowing. A similar pattern (though usually not as cheap) repeats in areas with lots of solar. Storage systems (like Harvest Thermal) that let you run your AC and/or heater/ hot water during that 4 hour period are not inherently as efficient as direct systems because they’ve got a big tank leaking energy 24 hours a day. That ends up being unimportant compared to both the economic and grid stability benefits of the switchable loads: make hay when the sun shines, don’t make hay when it doesn’t.

My favorite source for projecting the future energy grid is Bloomberg New Energy- they run economics based modeling of the grid out to 2050+. These all point to a huge abundance of electricity as wind and solar get overbuilt to handle the worst weeks of the year. Reinforcing the point: using less energy won’t be the name of the game. Using it at the right times will be.

 

[drdumont]

+1. The most common comments I hear are:

• "Teslas are very expensive."
• "You can't go on long trips any more because it takes 4-5 hours to recharge the batteries." Wrong. Most people also don't realize how many (super) chargers there are already, with more everyday. Nor the route planner that integrates enroute charging.
• "How long do the batteries last? What do they cost to replace?" - I know for a fact questions meant to diminish EVs.
• "Teslas and Bolts catch fire all the time. And firefighters can't put out the intense fire."
• "People have been killed in Teslas because their self driving doesn't work well."

There are several sides to the question. And no simple answer, which is really annoying to a logical, inquisitive and informed mind.

1) Yes, Virginia, there are still TONS of virulently (I didn't say violently, although they are out there) anti Hybrid and EV in general and anti Tesla in particular out there. Many of them see anything other than a gasser as a threat to their livelihood, especially if they are tied to the petroleum, dealership, automotive service, parts distribution, and so forth. One presumes those in the tack, stabling, farrier, even hay business went through the same issues. (Although the image of someone on a horse doing a bio coal roll on a horseless carriage amuses me). Anyhow, these folks respond with everything from vandalism to violence to FUDI mongering.

2) Many people are simply ignorant of the facts (ignorance is not necessarily denigrating. The essence of the word is 'lack of knowledge'). These people read the FUD, hear apochryphal stories (happened to my Uncle Fred's boss's cousin's half brother...), or hear the outright lies from dealers, the press, you get the picture.

3) There are people who are just go blithely through live, unobservant, and happy in their own little environment. I am amused at the usual "how much gasoline does it use", or "Really? there's NO gas tank?". I then open the frunk, the trunk, even the charge door. It is really gratifying to see the reactions, and even amusement. I've taken strangers for a ride, and I do have a business card with Tesla information. Used to give them my code and amassed a few Supercharging miles here and there.

4) I usually have spare time and don't mind being a Tesla ambassador, and depending upon how technically minded the person is, I explain the charging curve, how the system tries to shorten your charging time, Keep mode, Dog mode, (always get a chuckle), preheat/cool, and the other unique Tesla features.
The cost comes up and I tell them out front the approximate costs of the 4 models. And tell them to compare with comparable makes.

5) When the question of finding the next charge station, I refer them to abetterrouteplanner.com. As flawed as that is, there's no better demo of just how convenient the Supercharger network has become and is expanding.

6) And I usually end the conversation with something like "EVs aren't a perfect fit for everyone. I don't tow, race, carry heavy equipment, or offroad. Do yourself a favor - look at the videos on YouTube. Look at the Tesla website. Pick a model you think might suit your needs and price range. Then rent one from TURO and wring it out. I did the same thing, and bought mine the hour I returned. And look at EV-CPO as well. "

At my age, I've had a lot of folks answer my questions, mentors who have taken their time to school me, and being pretty genial and garrulous, I enjoy extolling the virtues (and a few issues) with my Teslas. Maybe that's not your thing. But to me, it's also a nice way to [ass the time as you wait the 16 hours or so it takes to "fill up" my car. <insert smiley face here>.

 

[drdumont]

Having visited 44/50 US states and 250/424 US national parks in the past year in my LR Model 3, I’ve heard a lot of dumb questions.
Here are a few. (Links go to my non-commercial Wordpress blog about my EV parks travels without ads).
“What do you do about rain and puddles? Is that thing even waterproof?” — owner who saw me park in front of his Wyoming hotel in the rain.
“Well, those things don’t have much range” — heard through my EV car window in Teddy Roosevelt ND, Canyon de Chelly AZ, Gila Cliff Dwellings NM, Great Basin NV, Big Hole MT, Sand Creek Massacre CO, Dinosaur UT, Nicodemus KS, etc.
“Costs about the same to fill up as my truck, right?” — guy putting 35 gallons into his Ford F250 at $6 per gallon in California last year.
“But don’t you miss the romance? I love the roar, vibration, and sheer power of my Mustang.” — dude at red light before I hit 60 mph in 3 seconds.
“What do you do when you’re charging?” — discussion at Starbucks, burger joint, rest room, hotel, campground, museum, and while watching base jumpers at Snake River Canyon in ID.
“How do I plug in?” — unfortunate couple at remote TX Supercharger who rented a non-Tesla from Hertz without the slightest clue about EV’s, nor cables, nor adapters, nor PlugShare. But they were Premium Hertz members.
Interested how many of you hear similar comments about EV’s.


View attachment 917513
"Tesla Supercharger" by Open Grid Scheduler / Grid Engine is marked with CC0 1.0.
Admin note: Image added for Blog Feed thumbnail

Planning a trip nowadays, I am conflicted. Like watching my mother in law going over the cliff in my new Tesla.
I have to decide whether to take The Good Ship Venus, or AMTRAK. Yeah, I'm a foamer. This summer, I'm planning on DFW-MO. CA-WA-IL,-WV, VA, TN, GA, LA and back. Visiting railroad sites. But I'll leave the car in LaPlat, Mo, at the Depot Inn, which just happens to have a couple of Wall chargers, and the owner runs the AMTRAK station. He said I could leave the car there while I make a transcon round trip, and even drop me at the station and pick me up. "Of course, I'll take it for a spin every day to keep the tires from flattening". Whatta guy!
The point of this is that I end up proselytizing for AMTRAK traveling while touring in my Tesla, and vice versa. In my experience, the majority of folks are really interested in learning. And I DO enjoy gainsaying the FUD. If I can clear the fog out of someone's harbor, I consider it a good day.

 

[THEbuz]

That's because electric cars threaten to take away their way of life. I don't only mean mechanics, but people whose lifestyle is dominated by the experience of gas cars. Guys who socialize over cars. Modders, racers (noise makers), tinkerers, etc. Guys who bonded with their dads while working on cars and want to have that with their own kids one day. There's an emotional connection to the gas car.

Now tell me why such people shouldn't hate electric cars. Gas cars have been a part of Americana for generations now.

This is the same thing that has happened every step of the way in our history, starting with those bloody farmers who were destroying the hunter gatherer way of life. When I was a father in 6000BC I wanted to share my life's experience with my boy, but he's been seduced by the farming life.

Of course, there are also the people whose simple identity is wrapped up in their car. The stereotype is the redneck with the lifted truck. That's his ego he's driving around, and you want to replace that with a Tesla? He'll go down shooting before he'll give up his ego.

Lastly, you've got the people with a financial interest in gas cars. Dealers, salesmen, oil and gas companies, all the people who supply them, etc. The entire green industry is a tectonic shift in the world's economy, and there's undoubtedly some real hatred for what it is doing to the established industries.

What I have found with respect to the notion of autonomous EV semi tractor fleets replacing “truck drivers” is that 100% of the truck drivers with whom I have had this discussion are in denial. I have friends who driver tractor trailers for UPS and I have a Ukrainian-American friend who is a self-employed truck driver. Without exception, all of them believe that tractor trailers can/will never be autonomous. We get a fair amount of snow in my state, and the UPS drivers who pull triple trailers believe that “a computer can never do what [they] can do”. I am assuming that (most) everyone on here (TMC) believes otherwise—noting that it is simply a matter of time.

 

[Murtaya]

A diesel accelerating is not trying to “roll coal” on you like many internet posters/YouTubers would have you believe.

But a diesel that:

• gets in the left turn lane to go straight
• goes through a red light, and
• changes lanes in the middle of an intersection...

...just might be. (got my first coal rolling this week!)

I'm so excited--I got my first coal-rolling yesterday! It also let me test out the biohazard mode on the ventilation system. I felt a bit bad that I... | By Mike Palotas | Facebook

I'm so excited--I got my first coal-rolling yesterday! It also let me test out the biohazard mode on the ventilation system. I felt a bit bad that I...

fb.watch

 

[GoVols!]

My experiences with EV car: 1) I don't have to squeeze my car to get into Costco gas pumps.
2) I don't feel hot in my garage when I go home. I can work out or do other things in the garage without inhaling the smoke.
3) I can park the car near the beaches and watch movies on a big screen.

#2 would be a huge bonus as I live in Tennessee. I love and will never get rid of my Land Cruiser but that V8 heats up the garage another 20f. Lol!

 

[K.I.T.T.23]

Ha-ha! Let’s hope so! Sorry if I got my panties in a bunch.

One thing seems clear: Total EV adoption appears to be imminent. I’m all in, as a tech lover, but I fear the potential of a “Minority Report” dystopian future.

While I think you meant it in jest, the idea of a dystopian future, or unpredictable negative effects in the near future could derail the EV adoption. It is probably the most likely reason to not see rapid EV adoption of the next decade. The science is there, and history says EV adoption will happen (history doesn't repeat, but it does rime), but some catastrophic natural event, a global war, AI insurrection lol, and more could all cause us to revert a hundred years back or further.

And no apology needed! There is no way to portray tone, intent, and body language via written forums. So when someone challenges an opinion with constructive intent, it will likely be taken as aggressively unless it is written very well. And sometimes I get silly with my verbiage which further pisses people off. I don't blame them, I should know better by now.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

well it is interesting that because we've seen 'civilization' (and I use the word in its loosest sense) continually progress we will continue to do so

...but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way

 

[RSpanner]

From an old man forum..and I just don't respond anymore.
"
" Expensive EVs with supercar acceleration are expressi9ns of an economy that can leverage debt not an example of a civilization transitioning to “sustainability”.
Humans don’t do sustainability."
Tired of arguing with people who have this mindset.

 

[kpanda17]

Human nature when confronted with a change, there is tendency for backlash until the majority has begun moving. Pioneers have always dealt with these headwinds. Think back to Lewis and Clark when they went west, they must have been shunned. Lets not us EV owners be afraid. Don't be confrontational, but be steadfast. Enjoy driving past the gas stations.

 

[EVer Hopeful]

You could always tell them to watch The Ballad of Cable Hogue

 

[drdumont]

What I have found with respect to the notion of autonomous EV semi tractor fleets replacing “truck drivers” is that 100% of the truck drivers with whom I have had this discussion are in denial. I have friends who driver tractor trailers for UPS and I have a Ukrainian-American friend who is a self-employed truck driver. Without exception, all of them believe that tractor trailers can/will never be autonomous. We get a fair amount of snow in my state, and the UPS drivers who pull triple trailers believe that “a computer can never do what [they] can do”. I am assuming that (most) everyone on here (TMC) believes otherwise—noting that it is simply a matter of time.

I posit that this will not happen in my lifetime. I have worked for 60 years in technology, nowadays computers and automation. It's like the little girl with a curl. When she was good she was very very good. But when she was bad, she was horrible.
I see this all the time. Everything chugs along tickety boo, until one little glitch, data mismatch, anything goes wrong, and fortunately in my field, a system failure doesn't kill anyone.
Any more than a player piano can sound exactly like a human playing, or even a midi sequencer sounding exactly like a live human, the nuances and subtle differences of muscle memory and timing actually add to the beauty of a live performance.
As someone who HAS driven tractor trailers, and even one terrifying time a set of doubles, there is just no machine on Earth that can duplicate the "seat of the pants" input which can end up in your making life and death decisios. Ask any pilot, railroad engineer, driver, or machine operator. When you feel the first prickle of your hair standing up or your butt muscles clenching, whatever the mechanism, a good driver/operator reacts. It's that "sixth sense" thing that no machine can duplicate.
It's the major reason I eschew FSD so vehemently, and really don't use Autopilot that much. Autopilot is handy to keep me on the straight and narrow if I momentarily need to consult something on the screen with those Gottverdammt small and difficult to read fonts (OK, that's another thread), but I normally get into driving mode and do it myself.
The concept of FSD is interesting, and I guess my hat's off to the brave souls who take their life into their hands, as did Neil Armstrong, Chuck Yeager and other brave souls. But they weren't coming at me at 80 miles an hour.

You want autonomous vehicles? Fine. As long as they operate in their own enclosed non jumpable barrier equipped motorways.