Vendor Antigravity Group 51R LiFePO4 Lithium battery for Tesla Model 3/Model Y

[Kouzman]

I have had good luck with Antigravity batteries on my 911 Turbo S. H^ size i think and weight savings something ridiculous like 40+ lbs!

Happy to see that they are offering something for the Teslas. When i get my MYP we will see then. But for this car is more important to have capacity and stability than weight savings. Let's see some more info on this please!

 

[tom @ eas]

I have had good luck with Antigravity batteries on my 911 Turbo S. H^ size i think and weight savings something ridiculous like 40+ lbs!

Happy to see that they are offering something for the Teslas. When i get my MYP we will see then. But for this car is more important to have capacity and stability than weight savings. Let's see some more info on this please!

100% agree, its refreshing that Antigravty are taking the time to test/gather data instead of just rushing a product out to market.

 

[Parker34]

Assuming this also works for the lucky ones of us who have a 22MY with the lead acid battery (before the Ryzen/Lithium updates)?

 

[tom @ eas]

Assuming this also works for the lucky ones of us who have a 22MY with the lead acid battery (before the Ryzen/Lithium updates)?

Yes, this is a drop in replacement for the lead acid type battery.

 

[Parker34]

Yes, this is a drop in replacement for the lead acid type battery.

Thanks. I figured as much, but wanted to verify there wasn't something else specific to the 22MY part that would be a hindrance.

 

[sleepydoc]

not sure if this is a custom battery but on their own website its $660-750 based on AH:

Group-51R Lithium Car Battery

Antigravity Group-51R Hi-Power lightweight Lithium Automotive Battery with RE-START Technology. Replace lead/acid battery in Hi-Performance Cars.

antigravitybatteries.com

I saw that, too.
$660 for a 24Ah battery, $750 for a 30Ah model. Ouch! The Ohmu model Y battery is $439. They don't list an amp-hr capacity. This page lists a 44Ah capacity, but it's not clear which size and what methodology they use. Ether way, $2-300 more is a pretty hefty premium, especially considering the Ohmu battery is already $250-300 more than a standard lead acid battery.

 

[whisperingshad]

2022.4.5.21


Error free in the notifications tab.

so an older build, just got 2022.12.3.2 this week

 

[Charliek]

any chance this could work for an older MS lead acid? I have a 2017 and am living on borrowed time. the SC wont replace it til " the message" comes up ( .i.e.. you have like less than a day to get it to the SC.

 

[tom @ eas]

any chance this could work for an older MS lead acid? I have a 2017 and am living on borrowed time. the SC wont replace it til " the message" comes up ( .i.e.. you have like less than a day to get it to the SC.

Haven't really looked into the 1st gen Model X and S yet to see the battery size/type. PM me your VIN and I'll look it up in EPC and compare data.

 

[Flybyglass]

2022.4.5.21


Error free in the notifications tab.

This is welcome news. How did you get around the problem of software updates being blocked and various VCFRONT messages along with other 12 volt battery warnings that later versions of the Tesla software caused? Also when would this battery be available and how long is the warranty? Thanks

 

[gearchruncher]

2022.4.5.21

You're gonna want to make sure you get a lot of testing done on newer SW versions and through SW updates before you ship a lot of these out. SW updates appear to trigger some pretty intense re-checks of the battery. In my experience, you can also just fully shut down the car (pull 12V and HV) and re-power it to trigger this check as well. I'd say unless you have done this 10X on 5 different cars, you run a high risk of these being detected by Tesla's newer battery checking.

I've been messing with my own LFP 12V battery, and it reads as fine until I either get a SW update, or I power the car up with just the LFP. Both of those reliably trigger warnings. If I boot it with the Lead Acid and let that go for a day, then swap to the LFP without dropping power, I get no warnings. So "no warnings" if you haven't been through a SW update is not really information.

Some people have suggested that doing a config change (like wheel size) also triggers a full restart of the systems.

 

[tom @ eas]

You're gonna want to make sure you get a lot of testing done on newer SW versions and through SW updates before you ship a lot of these out. SW updates appear to trigger some pretty intense re-checks of the battery. In my experience, you can also just fully shut down the car (pull 12V and HV) and re-power it to trigger this check as well. I'd say unless you have done this 10X on 5 different cars, you run a high risk of these being detected by Tesla's newer battery checking.

I've been messing with my own LFP 12V battery, and it reads as fine until I either get a SW update, or I power the car up with just the LFP. Both of those reliably trigger warnings. If I boot it with the Lead Acid and let that go for a day, then swap to the LFP without dropping power, I get no warnings. So "no warnings" if you haven't been through a SW update is not really information.

Some people have suggested that doing a config change (like wheel size) also triggers a full restart of the systems.

This is exactly why testing is being done - so we can get these types of bugs discovered and fixed before the general public sees them. This thread is simply to see what goes on behind the scenes and give a better understanding along the way.

 

[CMPT PAD]

The Battery Difference: Lithium Phosphate vs Lithium Ion​

https://storzpower.com/the-

battery-difference-lithium-phosphate-vs-lithium-ion
May 13, 2021 · Lithium-Ion Batteries. Lithium-ion technology is slightly older than lithium phosphate technology and is not quite as chemically or thermally stable.

Everything You Need To Know - The Lithium Guys

Discover the power of lithium-ion and LiFePO4 batteries at Lithium Guys. Make the switch today. Visit The Lithium Guys today.

www.lithiumguys.com

From what I understand, LiFePO4 is safer (no chance of explosion?) while its performance is the same as that of LiFe

 

[ElectricAnt54]

Will this work in a 2022 Performance Model Y which has lead acid battery? For historical purposes I’ll mention when 2022 model year of Y was beginning production, the cars shipped with 12 v lead acid batteries and lack the hardware needed to use the lithium ion battery Tesla uses.

 

[gearchruncher]

From what I understand, LiFePO4 is safer (no chance of explosion?) while its performance is the same as that of LiFe

LiFe and LiFEPO4 and LFP are different names for the same chemistry. That article is about LFP vs Lithium Cobalt. LFP is used in lower range Teslas. It is more stable, but the tradeoff is it weighs more for the same energy storage. It's also a different voltage than Cobalt, which is what makes it perfect to replace 12V lead acid batteries. Cobalt is 4.2V per cell, so you get 12.6 with 3 cells, or 16.8 with 4 cells, which is a bad alignment for ~14V which is what a 12V battery charges to. LFP with 4 cells is 14.6V, which is perfect.

When Tesla decided to use a lithium battery for their "12V" system, they went to Cobalt, but they changed the whole car to a 15V system from 12V.

 

[tom @ eas]

Will this work in a 2022 Performance Model Y which has lead acid battery? For historical purposes I’ll mention when 2022 model year of Y was beginning production, the cars shipped with 12 v lead acid batteries and lack the hardware needed to use the lithium ion battery Tesla uses.

Yes, compatible with MY22 with Lead Acid battery also.

 

[android04]

I saw that, too.
$660 for a 24Ah battery, $750 for a 30Ah model. Ouch! The Ohmu model Y battery is $439. They don't list an amp-hr capacity. This page lists a 44Ah capacity, but it's not clear which size and what methodology they use. Ether way, $2-300 more is a pretty hefty premium, especially considering the Ohmu battery is already $250-300 more than a standard lead acid battery.

The first generation Ohmmu was 44Ah. When they started having issues with error messages after some Tesla software updates in the autumn of 2019, they came out with a second generation battery. That one had a much smaller capacity of 14Ah or somewhere around that amount. Once again in the autumn of 2021 some software updates caused error messages and once again Ohmmu came out with a third generation battery. As far as I know that one just had a different BMS from the 2nd gen.

 

[gearchruncher]

The first generation Ohmmu was 44Ah. When they started having issues with error messages after some Tesla software updates in the autumn of 2019, they came out with a second generation battery. That one had a much smaller capacity of 14Ah or somewhere around that amount.

Ohmmu quotes the battery at 11 lbs, 9 lbs lighter than OEM.
Are you saying that the original batteries weighed 30+ lbs? Because all the weight in a battery comes from capacity.

14Ah * 14V = 196Wh
44Ah * 14V = 616Wh

LFP is about 150wh/kg, so I'd expect a 14Ah battery to be about 3lbs, and a 44Ah to be 9lbs.

There's no way the Ohmmu is 14Ah (which is good, because $400 for 200Wh is a crazy cost).

 

[android04]

Ohmmu quotes the battery at 11 lbs, 9 lbs lighter than OEM.
Are you saying that the original batteries weighed 30+ lbs? Because all the weight in a battery comes from capacity.

14Ah * 14V = 196Wh
44Ah * 14V = 616Wh

LFP is about 150wh/kg, so I'd expect a 14Ah battery to be about 3lbs, and a 44Ah to be 9lbs.

There's no way the Ohmmu is 14Ah (which is good, because $400 for 200Wh is a crazy cost).

The 1st gen Ohmmu battery was 11.4 lbs (you can still see the weight in this older page that was never updated Increased Efficiency | ohmmu).
The 2nd gen Ohmmu battery was 8.5 lbs. They touted their weight reduction when it came out, and customers also weighed them themselves and came out with the same number.
Looks like their 3rd gen battery is back to being 11 lbs as listed on their product page.

LiFePO4 batteries are nowhere near as heavy as lead acid batteries for the "same" capacity. The gen 1 was touted as having an actual 44Ah usable capacity (see here Better Performance | ohmmu) and or only weighed 11.5. It's a fact that lithium-based batteries (of which LiFePO4 that Ohmmu uses is one) is more energy dense that lead acid.

You might not know that the 45Ah nameplate capacity of the OEM battery is not actually usable. IF the OEM battery was a deep cycle lead acid battery (which I'm pretty sure it's not) then half of it's nameplate capacity is usable, which is 22.5Ah. For a non-deep cycle lead acid battery only a maximum of 20% of it's nameplate capacity is usable, which is 9Ah. On a LiFePO4 battery about 90% of its capacity is usable, so a 10Ah battery will have the same usable energy as the OEM battery (if it's not a deep cycle). A 25Ah capacity LiFePO4 battery has the same useable capacity as the OEM lead acid if the OEM battery is a deep cycle. You can read more info on capacity here Analyzing Lithium 12V Value | ohmmu.com (or anywhere that compares lead acid and lithium based batteries).

As far as my assertion that Ohmmu reduced the capacity of their battery from gen 1 to gen 2 (and the actual capacity numbers), I admit that I have lost the source of the info. However, it made sense to me that they would reduce the capacity to more closely match the actual useable capacity of the OEM battery if kept from confusing Tesla's charge/discharge algorithm and fixed the erroneous "replace battery soon" messages that Ohmmu users were experiencing. That was the whole reason that gen 2 came about, to fix the error messages. That's the reason for the gen 3 battery once again.

 

[gearchruncher]

@android04 - I didn't mention Lead Acid at all.

My point is that if 11 lbs gave you 44Ah (perfectly reasonable for LFP), than 14Ah wouldn't weigh 9 lbs. It would weigh about 3lbs. There's no way the V2 was only 14Ah, and if it was, it was hugely overpriced and had a lead weight inside. That was my only point that your 14Ah estimate was not accurate.

However, it made sense to me that they would reduce the capacity to more closely match the actual useable capacity of the OEM battery if kept from confusing Tesla's charge/discharge algorithm and fixed the erroneous "replace battery soon" messages that Ohmmu users were experiencing. That was the whole reason that gen 2 came about, to fix the error messages. That's the reason for the gen 3 battery once again.

You're driving yourself in a logic circle. Lead acid was 44Ah, so V1 was 44Ah, but you really can't use that, only 10-20Ah, so V2 was 14Ah, but now V3 is 44Ah again, because that will fix the errors this time. Plus, just because you should only use 20% of a LA's capacity doesn't mean it doesn't have 100%, and when you measure that battery, you will measure it at 100% capacity. If the charge algorithm was expecting a 40Ah battery but then was only going to use 10Ah of it, it would still expect to see 40Ah, and you can't just hand it a 15Ah capacity battery of different chemistry and expect it to be happy. It should rightly freak out when it thinks your 40Ah battery has degraded to 15Ah. This is not just a dumb float charger.

Tesla is not detecting LFP via capacity measurements. You can see this because they will throw an error long before they would be able to estimate battery capacity, and over the fact that they throw errors even when a very equivalent capacity battery is present. They're using other characteristics of LFP, such as higher float voltage to detect the different chemistry and this is what all LFP 12V vendors are going to have to figure out how to work around.