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Any 43kW AC only chargers for sale?

Discussion in 'Europe' started by Mihai75, Mar 6, 2015.

  1. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    I've been recently stunned (excuse the pun) about charger price difference between AC and DC, and I've been trying to find if any company is selling 43kW AC only chargers - no success so far. I imagine it wouldn't need to be much bigger than a 22kW charger and of course several times cheaper than a DC fast charger.
     
  2. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean by "AC only" chargers. Are you looking for an AC powered charger that would output DC to the Tesla the same as the Superchargers? A 43 kW charger for home use would have to step 240v AC to 370v DC and, of course, would draw more power than most home electricity service could provide. (Most homes have 200 amp 240v service = 48 kW max but 80% of that, or 38 kW, continuous). I guess that Tesla could package four of the on-board charging units together to build this but I doubt many people could use it.)
     
  3. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    It's not related to Tesla, I have a Zoé and I am just very surprised that this onboard charging tech up to AC 43kW hasn't been adopted more by other manufacturers. I don't think it's all up to patents, I'm thinking it's rather a matter of the companies that sell chargers. A fast AC/DC 43kW/50kW charger is big as a fridge, weighs 300kg and costs about 20 000€ + installation costs of maybe at least another 5000€. In this case, DC charging makes absolutely no sense except to make money for the people selling and installing them. A 22kW AC costs about 700€, so I was wondering how much more could a 43kW AC only charger cost? Lets say it's double, that would still make it more than 10 times cheaper than a AC/DC charger of the same strength!

    I would think it's pretty clear that the most logical way to increase adoption of EVs would be to :

    - offer cars that provide up to 43kW AC charging using a Type 2 connector. Using tech similar to or licensed from Renault.
    - build a very cheap network of 43kW chargers, which are so cheap and easier to install compared to these giant expensive ones, that many hotels,restaurants,cafees would be motivated to install. Of course, also the 22kW option would make sense in many cases. In the worse case, we are looking at 10x cheaper fast charging network for all affordable EVs until 10-15 years from now.
    - if in ten years from now, an affordable EV can charge with 100kW DC, what would the cost be to add this feature to the car, so that it has the 43kW AC and can optionally use a 100kW DC charger? Couldn't manufacturers provide that as an option when you buy the car? A few thousands extra? Even so, I don't think a majority would want that, most would be very happy with "only" 43kW charging. Even in 15 years from now.

    It really seems all twisted the way things are now....except for the charge point companies.....
     
  4. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    When there is a small population of EVs and the desire to have many charge points, AC makes sense, even at high power. However, when there is a very large number EVs and there are sufficient high power charging points, DC makes sense because you can reduce the total combined cost across the vehicles and infrastructure. Here's my logic: increasing the onboard charger from 7kW to 43kW would likely increase the cost of the car by more than $1,000. When you have hundreds of thousands of cars on the road, you need much less than 1% as many fast chargers as vehicles, so a $50,000 DCFC still makes sense.
     
  5. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    But again I'm not talking about the Tesla 120kW fast chargers. I'm talking about very expensive chargers that are currently being installed all over Europe, where the charging speed is the same for AC or DC (practically the same, 43 vs 50 but I believe the Nissan Leaf for example only draws a max of 44kW, so practically the same speed). The difference is, if the charger was only 43 AC, we would save about 10-15x in cost! Plus the installation would be much easier, because the charger itself would be the size of a small box, not a giant fridge. Not to mention less maintenance, since no expensive electronics, fans etc. in the charger.

    For the next 5 years at least, these companies will continue to sell chargers at 10-15x the price, and at the same time, slowing down the implementation of fast chargers because of this cost and hassle of installing a DC fast charger, compared to an AC only charger.

    And again, even in 10-15 years from now, when hopefully we will have hundreds of thousands of EVs, even with say 400-450km of range (talking about an affordable EV now), will 43kW be considered so slow? I think the best would be to give car buyers the choice (and again this is talking at least 10 years from now): buy a car with a "built-in" charger that cleverly reuses the electronics and motor which is already needed to run the car (as Renault have done), OR pay maybe 2-3000 more for the option to be able to also use the future 100kW or faster DC chargers.

    The deployment of AC/DC 50kW fast chargers in Europe is currently painfully slow. No restaurant or small hotel is going to invest 35 000 euros(!) to install one of these monsters. But then you tell them: Wait, you have the option to install an equally fast charger, 10x cheaper! And you could even charge people for it. I can only imagine how many of such chargers we would have now, if it weren't for this stupidity of mixing AC/DC chargers of the same strength. For the only reason that I can see to fill the pockets of the companies making these chargers. Renault has already proven very well that 43kW AC only charging can be done, effectively and very cheap. So then DC only makes sense from 100kW and up.....which currently NO ONE is installing in Europe besides Tesla. And this will probably remain so for at least the next 7 years or so.

    The point is to get a charging infrastructure up as soon as possible to entice people to buy an EV, right? Having 43kW AC fast chargers everywhere would certainly help, and this is so easy to do with the European electric grid. This charging speed would certainly also be future proof for the next 10 years or more, for cars that will only have about 50-60kW of batteries anyway. No affordable EV with more than that will appear in the next 10 years.

    So the painful reality today in Europe is (except perhaps Norway and Great Britain):

    - we have very few fast chargers (because they are freaking expensive DC units mixed with cheap AC on the same charger)
    - we are stuck with pathetic 3kW or 7kW outlets. For an idea of how pathetically slow things are moving in some european countries, in France, the group Bollore was recently awarded a contract to install 16 000 7kW chargers, over the next 4 years. Yes, in 4 years, and 7kW. So it's way, way off in the distance will we see a charging infrastructure of 100kW. In the mean time, hey we have freaking 43 KILOWATTS AC!!! Dirt cheap!!! But nobody seems to have such chargers. What a waste....
     
  6. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    Convince other automakers to use a Chameleon type charger like the Zoe and then you may have a good case.

    Let's tabulate the charging capabilities of the cars for sale in Europe:

    Tesla Model S - Type2 22kW AC, Supercharger 120kW DC
    Zoe - Type2 43kW AC
    Smart ED - Type2 22kW AC
    Leaf / e-NV200 / Soul EV - Type1 6.6kW AC, CHAdeMO 44kW DC
    i-MiEV / iON / Outlander - Type1 3.6kW AC, CHAdeMO 44kW DC
    e-Up - Type2 CCS 3.6kW AC, CCS 44kW DC
    e-Golf / i3 - Type2 CCS 7.2kW AC, CCS 44kW DC
    Golf GTE / A3 eTron / Cayenne Plug-In - Type 2 3.6kW AC

    I may have missed a few, but I don't think any of them have high capacity AC charging. My point of making the above list is to show that there are only 3 car models for sale in Europe today that have on-board chargers that can even take 3-phase power - Model S, Zoe, Smart ED. Everything else listed is, at most, 32A single phase (7.2kW). Model S and Smart are up to 32A 3-phase and only the Zoe can take 63A 3-phase.

    I admire your goals and what you're saying makes sense for Zoe drivers. However, there is no demand for greater than 22kW AC from any other automaker. Honestly, they are only putting the 43kW AC plug on the triple-standard charging stations because it is so easy. That is the same electrical feed that they are using to power the DCFC ports.
     
  7. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    Unfortunately it would have made sense not only for the Zoe, but for all affordable EVs, which in the next 5 years or so at least won't have more than 30-40kW of batteries on board anyway, and so wouldn't be able to charge at DC of 120kW or even 100kW, even if such a charging network (non Tesla) would exist in Europe in the next 10 years, which won't. And even if it will in the next 10 years, or 15 years, even then a AC fast charge of 43kW would still make perfect sense. No one will argue that a 43kW charge isn't future proof at least for the next 15 years or so.

    I'm just very disappointed that no other EV manufacturer has chosen to follow Renaults path, which would have enabled us to deploy an extremely fast charging network, very quickly, and of the same power as current DC chargers.

    As an example I found here a two plug 22kW charger for 600 euros:
    Rolec EV: BasicCharge (2 x 32amp 3phase) Type 2 | nuWorld Energy

    Having it instead at AC 43kW, would make the charger itself maybe what, 800 euros? Yes, you would have an extra cost to draw a 63A line to it, but it would be the same for the DC charger, plus installing something that weighs 5kg vs something that weighs 300kg, the logistics and thus costs involved would be completely different. You can even install this 43kW AC charger on a wall, by drilling 4 holes.

    The stupidity and waste of all this is astounding. We have the tech to be able to charge at 43kW AC using the parts in the car that are already there to make the car move (regardless if it uses AC charging or not) it works very well, it's cheap, but no, the choice is made by automakers to completely ignore this tech and instead force the unnecessary use of DC chargers offering the same power but which cost 20x more! TWENTY TIMES MORE. It's just incredible how we have arrived at todays situation. Of course there is a reason in that there is a lot of money to be made installing these DC chargers, and another reason is to slow down the adoption of EVs as much as possible by limiting the deployment of fast chargers using this artificially created necessity of 50kW DC charging.
     
  8. pvh

    pvh Active Member

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    We will have a 43kW AC soon, to charge our Zoë fleet. Have patience for 2 months, and you can get a charger for around €2000 including cable and €2850 if you need a RFID and smart charging option. I can not comment more at this point since we are like kind of Beta Testing.
     
  9. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    Well I wrote a reply to miimura, but it said waiting for moderation, then it never appeared.

    Anyway, pvh, that sounds interesting and I guess you will have cornered the market with that charger since it seems you'll be the only one selling an AC only 43kW charger :tongue: Not to sound like I'm critizing, but I saw that a 22kW charger can be had for about 600 euros. Why is your 43kW 3x that price? Is it because it's on a pedestal, vandal proof etc.? I hope it will besides the RFID crap (I hate plastic cards, this is such an obsolete thing already), also have the ability for NFC and paying by your mobile phone. Either via the NFC or SMS messaging.

    As I wrote in my reply that didn't appear, I think unfortunately it would have made sense for all affordable electric cars, not only for the Zoe, that will have less than 40-50kW or so of batteries in the next 10 years. And even after that, 43kW charging speed will hardly be considered obsolete. I'm just left really wondering what Renaults marketing is doing. They should have really pushed the point in the beginning that they have a technology which enables a charging network to be built, that is about 15-20x cheaper than DC and for the same charging speed. That is a pretty tremendous thing but Renault didn't use this angle at all, especially starting in France where Zoes I think represent about 40-50% of EVs. They could have easily starting partnerships with chains of cafes, restaurants etc, sharing the costs and it would have been a terrific selling point: "Look, you spend 1000, we spend 1000 and you can have this fast charger installed - good for your business and good for ours."

    Imagine if this would have happened - and Zoe drivers would have had fast chargers every 100km or less. I think Leaf/i3,i-MiEV etc. owners would have put some pressure on their companies saying - look why don't you do what Renault is doing? Why don't you use their tech, we want our fast chargers and they can do it, why can't you???

    But what does Renault do instead? They install 22kW chargers at their dealers locations. And that's all they have done so far. Not even a cooperation with IKEA or Auchan like Nissan has done, even though their costs are at least 15x higher for every charger installed. The dealers are of course are not open 24/7, closed the weekends, and you have the hassle of always having to ask somebody there for the RFID card. Either Renault really, really sucks at marketing, or this great opportunity was forgotten on purpose.
     
  10. pvh

    pvh Active Member

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    @Mihai75
    I am not selling. We are installing 20 22kW AC chargers at the office and want one 43kW for our Zoe's. The material costs would be around 800 euro to build your own however 43kW is very high power and there are some strict rules if you have it publicly available like we will have. And also the manufacturers of the Chargers are no philanthropist and need to eat and develop. There would not be innovation if they need to sell for the price they produce it for.
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Mihai75's points are all valid and an echo of conversations we had 5 years ago. AC makes sense while the number of cars on the road is still comparatively low.

    43kW AC would have sped up high power charger roll out to destination locations and greatly increased options for mid point charges at low expense. Plus you know that the complex stuff is in your car and working, leaving simple contactors in the EVSE. It's a shame Tesla didn't offer 43kW in the Model S.
     
  12. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    I'm not sure high power AC Chargers make sense. it seems that there is much more cost in installing Hi Power AC Chargers in each car. You need fewer DC charging stations. Instead of installing four 11kW converters in every car, Tesla can offer ubiquitous fast charging with a few thousand Superchargers.
     
  13. pvh

    pvh Active Member

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    It is not... Like Tesla does now, 2x11kW you can also do 2x22kW as duo charger. Ik know this because I talked to a company that builds EV delivery busses like Renault Traffic etc and you can get it with a 3x63a RED plug and Type-2 connection. Here in the Netherlands we have many 43kW AC now, all combined with CHAdeMO and CCS(European combo) so it makes sence to have this option, however I can imagine not every manufacture is willing to suply this since after all will not be chosen by many..
    For me 43kW AC is essential, since it will let our cars charge 50% capacity in 15 minutes.
     
  14. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    43 kW AC means you have both an expensive AC charger and expensive DC converters in the vehicles. Seems it would be cheaper to get the same results with a shore power DC charger which seems to cost the same as the AC charger and you wouldn't need the expense of the onboard converters.
     
  15. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    But this is the clever thing with Renaults reductive charging. You don't actually install a new "normal" charger in the car - you reuse the electronics and motor to convert AC to DC, parts which are already being used to make the car move - AC charging or not. So the costs of this tech are very minimal for the car manufacturer. I found another thread here that talks about this in more detail:

    AC vs. DC fast charge - Page 3
     
  16. scanred_x

    scanred_x Member

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    I agree. For Europe and Italy is especially important.
     
  17. pvh

    pvh Active Member

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    Italy is not in Europe ;)
    And sorry for the reta..s that wrecked your beautifull city...
     
  18. mspohr

    mspohr Active Member

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    Renault has come up with an interesting solution. We'll see how it plays out.
     
  19. Mihai75

    Mihai75 Member

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    I see, well I will wait then until this manufacturer is ready to make it available for a larger audience. Please let me know if you can when this charger is out of beta testing and you can tell us more about it or you can point me to the manufacturer.

    Of course everyone needs to eat, I ment in no way to deprive these fine developers of well deserved nutrition :) I will wait for more info about this charger. It's a little glimpse of hope in this ridiculous situation we are in right now, with 45kW charging at either 25 000 euros a charger for DC vs 2000 euros for AC.
     
  20. fredag

    fredag Member

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    http://www.crohm.eu/index.php/2012-10-09-18-15-57/automotive-2/85-evse1m63-43kw.html
     

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