Anybody have experience with Paragon Brakes?

[cdub715]

I'm in the market to upgrade the rotors on my TM3 AWD LR. Through my research on these forums, there seems to be only 4 main options discussed on these forums: MPP, RB, AP, and UP. Paragon Brakes is the only company not discussed here so I wanted to poke around and see if anyone has had experience with their products, or even better, how they stack up against the other rotor/brake vendors.

Pricing-wise, they are right on par with MPP's 365mm BBK offering (actually cheaper) priced at ~$1,200 shipped after tax. I might be wrong on this but I think Paragon white-labels Alcon rotors just like how MPP with Girodisc. Spec-wise, they are almost identical - MPP rotors weighs in at 17.68lbs with bracket, Paragon weighs in at 17.2lbs + 0.97lbs bracket. MPP rotor is 26mm thick while the Paragons are 25mm. Paragon is also offering a 15% discount if you purchase the front and rears (350mm and 370mm options) together costing around ~$2,100 for all 4 rotors versus ~$2,500 from MPP. Since I daily my car with the occasional track day, I doubt i'd be able to feel the performance difference between the brands of rotors. Can anyone chime in with their experience? TIA

 

[RS95]

Surprised no one answered this yet. I've been wondering the same thing. Hopefully this bumps the thread.

 

[Motion122]

That is a good find! I'll be contacting them tomorrow to get a set to test.

 

[MountainPass]

Hm, a 365mm big brake kit that utilizes the OEM caliper from another company. That IS really similar!

I'm sure they have tons of other OEM caliper relocation kits for all kinds of other cars if they are doing one for a four-door, non-performance model Tesla, right?

Oh nope... Just another company that copied our 365 kit

We'll ask that if you support companies that duplicate our ideas, you don't bother buying any MPP components. It's just something we've been so turned off by in this industry for so many years. It's almost impossible to protect your ideas, so all we can do is point out when it's happening and hope that the community appreciates the actual work we do in developing and testing products.

The fact that we put all of our focus on the EV movement, and re-invest constantly in new products and ideas for this platform is something that other vendors who support every marque out there can't really claim to do.

 

[gearchruncher]

I'm sure they have tons of other OEM caliper relocation kits for all kinds of other cars if they are doing one for a four-door, non-performance model Tesla, right? Oh nope... Just another company that copied our 365 kit

But they actually do for 18 other manufacturers and have been doing it for a lot longer than MPP.

What is your point here? You didn't come up with the idea of making an adapter bracket for existing calipers and rotors- that has been around for decades. What is so special about a bracket that makes you sure they copied you? Didn't you copy the idea of a big brake kit from the overall industry, and in fact use that industry and their scale to manufacture your product?

The fact that we put all of our focus on the EV movement, and re-invest constantly in new products and ideas for this platform is something that other vendors who support every marque out there can't really claim to do.

This is all particularly ironic given you sell STOPTECH brakes (made by Centric, a HUGE brake maker) on your own website as your best brake option and use that name to help market your product as a good thing. Doesn't Stoptech support every marque out there, including Tesla? Are they part of the evil? Why are you relying on their engineering and manufacturing?

This whole "we're the little guys supporting EV's" might have flown in 2017, but the Tesla Model 3 is basically the best selling sedan in the world now. It's not about it being an EV anymore. Of course there is going to be competition for parts for these vehicles like there are for all high volume production cars, especially in the areas where they are exactly the same as other cars like suspension and brakes. How is a coilover kit, bushings, adjustable control arms or big brakes an "new idea" for a 4 door sedan? It's exactly the stuff that starts showing up for any car as it hits a couple hundred thousand copies on the road, much less the 2M we're at now.

If you really want to see EV's succeed, you should be happy they are a mass market vehicle now, and not a niche product. But that also means the aftermarket for them is going to go mass market too. You can't have it both ways, benefitting from the sales volume of the mass market while asking mass market buyers to only consider niche aftermarket suppliers. You're going to need to sell your product based on quality or functionality (and they are really good products!) instead of claiming that everything is a copy of your product and that you somehow have a unique right to the aftermarket for EV's and anyone that dares look elsewhere is an enemy of "the movement".

Also, If you are really focused on the "EV Movement" then you should probably sell some stuff for non-Teslas. Right now it looks like you are pretty much focused on a single make, not broad support of the EV drivetrain or lower impact transportation.

We'll ask that if you support companies that duplicate our ideas, you don't bother buying any MPP components.

This is a really destructive attitude and isn't going to serve you well as Tesla continues to expand. It's also clear that you don't just care about parts that you think are direct copies of yours- but you want to protect the very idea of an adjustable control arm, even ones that are in no way a copy of yours and have been a product for cars since the JC Whitney catalog was the new hotness.

I bought some brake pads from RB, sways from Eibach, and coilovers from KW over the years. Where would you like me to send my MPP FUCAs, Lower Control arm bushings and brake lines for a full refund since all those companies stole your ideas and I "supported them" despite these being their core businesses?

Make good products at a reasonable price and people will buy them. Don't try and make the Tesla aftermarket a cult and insult your customers that dare look elsewhere as if they are enemies. Cults are always small, niche, and implode when they get too big. You want your company to scale with Tesla's success, not be limited by your protectionist attitude.

Think about what you said in the general sense of EV's: Should everyone else only ever buy a Tesla because they had the idea for an EV and now nobody is ever again allowed to improve on it or sell a similar product?

 

[MountainPass]

Sorry that you're so upset about it.

I'll just make a few bullet points and leave it alone:

• The link you posted is to big brake kits with different calipers - OE caliper relocations are very rare in their offering. Making the 365 work with the OE Tesla caliper was not easy, there is hardly enough room. It wasn't an obvious product. It is very much not a normal bracket, and if you look at their bracket and ours side by side, it will be clear.
• The question we ask internally is "would this product have been developed if MPP didn't do it?" If the answer is no, then I think we have a right to be frustrated and I'm pretty confident you would be too if you were in our position! We try not to be biased in doing the evaluation, and I honestly think we do a pretty good job of being non-biased.
• We only take issue with companies that duplicate our parts, so your Eibach and KW coilovers are great. RB also copied our 365 kit directly after we made it, which yes we also take issue with.
• You're right, the market will grow. As it does, I feel it is important to make sure it's known who came up with the ideas, and who copied the ideas. No, it's not rocket science. We're not fusing atoms. But nonetheless, we have and always will hate the idea that in the automotive aftermarket you can just duplicate any idea you see, make it in China, and win because you sell it for less. While at the same time offering worse support, next to no specialized knowledge, and often with little to no testing.
• The above is the main item of concern for us, and is the reason we bring this sort of thing to light. At the risk of sounding petty, we feel it is important to lay out the facts when our homework is being copied.
• Your example of the Stoptech calipers is confusing. We spec'd out every aspect of that kit - the piston sizes, rotor sizes (including hat drawings), did all of the adapter design and machining here, and we did all of the testing - well in excess of what is normal for an aftermarket big brake kit. Even OEMs don't manufacture their own calipers.

So basically all we are asking is that others develop their own products without using ours as a reference. It's extra frustrating when our products are used as a template and then the supplier will claim "innovation."

And once there is another EV that is fun to drive on track that needs some upgrades, you'll be sure we'll be all over it. We were hoping more of the Ioniq range but it's still not quite inspiring enough.

Long story short, I think you're reading into what was posted a little bit too much - we're not sitting here asking for no competition, we have won many racing championships against the competition and it's quite enjoyable. We take no issue with great competition - you'll never see us saying anything bad about a whole range of aftermarket products for Teslas!

 

[MountainPass]

I'll expand with one more thing. I fully support other companies making EVs and DESPERATELY want the climate crisis to get under control for my children's sake. It's a constant source of anxiety for me personally.

With that being said, I do not think this is acceptable:

 

[gearchruncher]

And once there is another EV that is fun to drive on track that needs some upgrades, you'll be sure we'll be all over it. We were hoping more of the Ioniq range but it's still not quite inspiring enough.

Porsche Taycan?

Long story short, I think you're reading into what was posted a little bit too much - we're not sitting here asking for no competition,

We'll ask that if you support companies that duplicate our ideas, you don't bother buying any MPP components.

You literally told people to not bother buying your products at all if they "support" other companies that duplicate your "ideas." That's pretty agressive.

The question we ask internally is "would this product have been developed if MPP didn't do it?" If the answer is no, then I think we have a right to be frustrated and I'm pretty confident you would be too if you were in our position!

So at what volume do you do that analysis? Just because someone wouldn't develop it in 2018 with 200K cars on the road doesn't mean it wouldn't happen today with 2M. Do you think Tesla runs around being frustrated that tons of cars can be controlled with apps now? That's just progress, and it was a temporary sales advantage that will always fade over time.

As it does, I feel it is important to make sure it's known who came up with the ideas, and who copied the ideas.

Are you confident none of your products copy any ideas from any other products out there? Ohmmu was selling lightweight, custom, LiFEPo4 12V batteries about 6 months before you introduced your EarthX ETX680 based kit for example. Who created something is a very grey line, and I really don't see how your sales are going to increase by supposedly educating the market that it was your "idea" first. Do you acknowledge all the companies involved in getting to amazing modern disc brake technology or damper design as you advertise your products?

Sell on the quality, performance, or value. I notice that the only thing you had to say about the Paragon kit was that it is a supposed copy, not that it is inferior to your product in any way. That's a pretty weak product story.

 

[gearchruncher]

With that being said, I do not think this is acceptable:

And Tesla didn't put WiFi into their wall chargers until 2020, while other companies have been doing it for about a decade. It's a really good "idea".
Is that acceptable? Or is it more important how something looks than how it actually functions?

What about the flush door handles on a 2008 Nissan GTR that are basically identical to the handles on a 2017 Model 3?

It's particularly funny to not like Ford's marketing of their EV charging when Tesla literally just used someone's name for their company because of what it evokes in the mind due to that person's history.

 

[tm1v2]

I should really stay out of the parts / ideas copying discussion (especially because I don't have a broad or deep knowledge of the aftermarket parts world), but I want to chime in on a tangential point that's been on my mind anyways:

Also, If you are really focused on the "EV Movement" then you should probably sell some stuff for non-Teslas. Right now it looks like you are pretty much focused on a single make, not broad support of the EV drivetrain or lower impact transportation.

And once there is another EV that is fun to drive on track that needs some upgrades, you'll be sure we'll be all over it. We were hoping more of the Ioniq range but it's still not quite inspiring enough.

I believe "needs some upgrades" is just as key to this as "fun to drive on a track."

By all accounts a Taycan is fun and handles itself well on a track or anywhere else, at least with the right options ticked. (I can't say firsthand, the Porsche dealer made me feel lucky just to sit in their Taycan Turbo. ) However...it's a Porsche. If there's something Porsche is known for, besides farty flat sixes in the butt, it's sweating the details on suspension, braking, and other aspects of the driving experience.

Sure maybe a base 911 isn't all that special on the track vs other good sports cars (I don't know), but if you're serious in your Porsche tracking and start off with a GT3 or GT3 RS or whatever, you're basically getting a car that's kitted out from the factory like a good aftermarket tuner special. Sure there's no EV GT3 or GT2 Porsche yet, but the writing is on the wall there, and even the not-so-track-focused Porsches are usually not bad at all in the suspension and braking departments right from the factory, especially for street use. If you're not doing serious track time in your Taycan, it doesn't sound like there's much need or use for a better suspension or brakes or stuff like that. That is VERY DIFFERENT from a Model 3 or most Teslas to date! And let's be real, people looking for a Porsche to track aren't buying Taycans.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a big Porsche fan or anything, I've never owned one and the few I've driven over the years didn't really called to me (though I haven't driven any of their "best" cars either). But it's clear Porsche sweats a lot of details that Tesla frankly doesn't, and there's much less need or use in attempting to upgrade your Taycan with a bunch of aftermarket handling and braking parts than your Model 3.

Now I know the Porsche sports car aftermarket is plenty strong, in no small part because they're popular to track and race, and everything wears out or could use upgrading when get serious on the track. Obviously there are upgrades to be done, especially if you bought a regular 911 or Cayman or such but what you actually wanted was a GT4/GT3/GT2. But the Taycan is new, not many built yet even if 2021 sales were good for a Porsche, and it's definitely not the Porsche someone looking to build a track weapon is likely to buy.

.....

Elsewhere in the sporty EV market, there's also less modding upside than with a Model 3. The Mach-E GT thermal throttling looks so serious, nobody wants to touch that for a track or performance build, not to mention the crossover-ish height. Granted if someone managed to unleash its power there would be huge upside, but it sounds like there might be bottlenecks in the battery pack design itself...that's a tall order for the aftermarket to overcome. And you'd also have to reprogram or fool the software to remove its hardcoded time and speed based limits. Some companies have done software fooling on Teslas (MPP Party Box, Ingenext Boost, etc) but I suspect working around the Mach-E's thermal throttling programming would be another level. And most Mach-Es built are the much slower boring ones, the volume of potentially interesting ones (GT and GT PE) is still tiny.

The Polestar 2 Performance is actually pretty sporty for a family-friendly 4 door, but it's much more well-rounded from the factory than any Model 3. There's just not as much upside to modding it, especially for any street use. Also Polestar 2 sales volume seems tiny in North America (or at least in the USA), though I understand it's doing relatively better in Europe at least.

Are there any other non-Teslas even worth mentioning for sheer EV driving fun yet? Ioniq / EV6 are brand new now and I haven't driven them yet, but by all accounts MPP's take is right...it seems they drive well for what they are, but not competitive with the Model 3 as a platform for sheer EV driving fun.

.....

Last point I'll make is that Model 3 sales have dwarfed all these other cars right out of the gate. There's a variety of obvious reasons for that, but the result is not a single other truly sporty and fun EV is anywhere close to approaching the Model 3's sales rate or trajectory. Yes occasionally the aftermarket has really contributed to a car's popularity growth in a symbiotic way (e.g. Acura Integra, Subaru WRX), but I don't think that potential is there for any EVs currently. Model 3 was going to take off like a rocketship with or without the aftermarket. And sales of every new EV (and just about every car) are basically production-limited. The aftermarket isn't going to help sell more of them, the car makers can't even build more to sell.

.....

Why am I rambling on about this? Because I like EVs and I like fun-to-drive 4 door cars, and I'm looking forward to lots more coming on the market eventually. The Model 3 really impressed me at a fundamental level despite all the weak aspects as it comes from the factory. Tesla hit home run with it even if they did so with a cheap bat, squishy gloves, and a crack in their helmet. It's a very worthy platform to mod and no other EV seems close in that regard yet. Maybe if/when we start seeing EV equivalents of the WRX, Supra, etc there will be worthy competition for EV aftermarket parts development.

 

[gearchruncher]

If you're not doing serious track time in your Taycan, it doesn't sound like there's much need or use for a better suspension or brakes or stuff like that. That is VERY DIFFERENT from a Model 3 or most Teslas to date!

The Model 3P is insanely capable on the street, way more than 99% of drivers can handle. The brakes are way more than you need, and the suspension is just fine. There's no rational need to upgrade a Model 3 if you're driving it only on the street. Yet enthusiasts upgrade anyway, and the vast majority of upgrades for all cars don't get tracked. Porsche is no different. People will pay to make their car "better" or "different". The smart people that track their Porches buy aftermarket brake rotors to *save* the stock PCCB ones for the eventual weekend cruiser that will buy the car after them and cares about the dust on their wheels.

The reality here is that there aren't enough Taycans to make it profitable yet. Kind of like how MPP doesn't support the Model S except for some simple brake rotor kits once Plaid came out- they're basically a Model 3/Y shop. It's not actually about the track-ability of the car. It's about the volume. Which is a double edged sword- it's rare you are the only one with an idea, so you're gonna have competition. But yeah, the 3/Y is a great platform to sell stuff for, because in a few years a bunch of 24 year olds with some disposable income are going to start buying them used and wanting to change them "because racecar." It's this generation's BMW 3 series. It's a good business plan.

 

[Motion122]

I'll expand with one more thing. I fully support other companies making EVs and DESPERATELY want the climate crisis to get under control for my children's sake. It's a constant source of anxiety for me personally.

With that being said, I do not think this is acceptable:

View attachment 758034

Unfortunately, those screaming global warming is a crisis are still rolling around in ICE SUVs and fly around in private jets. I personally don't think it will ever get under control but can certainly be slowed.

 

[cdub715]

@MountainPass didnt mean to strike an old chord as I know this Paragon copy cat situation has been already addressed in another thread.

Still a huge fan of everything MPP does for the Model 3 platform and community. With that being said, I disagree with your notion that all Paragon buyers not to ever purchase/support MPP products… so what does that make me as your long-time customer? What are you trying to achieve? To lose out on more rev? Unless you guys took legal action to prove that they “carbon” copied your design, there really nothing you can do - adding salt to the wound isn’t helping. I want MPP to succeed. Hope you don’t take this the wrong way. Still love and appreciate you, Jesse.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

So......any experience with Paragon Brakes / BBKs?

 

[Motion122]

So......any experience with Paragon Brakes / BBKs?

On M3P only. High quality and well made.

Autocrossed with AX6 and 1521 Carbotech pads and can't be happier with the results. Porterfield R4S for street duty.

 

[tm1v2]

Just a note with my experience using Carbotech pads, since it seems relevant:

I'm a BIG fan of Carbotech's XP series track pads. I highly recommend them (for track use only of course). I was using XP10 I think on a past car (~ 350hp 3375lbs) and they were fantastic for my track day driving. Hand-of-god stopping power, never a hint of fade. Re-bedding between them and street pads was ridiculously trivial. That car was my daily driver and only car, so admittedly I wasn't pushing the absolute limits of late braking as I very much wanted to drive it home after each track day, but I was easily braking hard enough to very quickly fade supposed dual use street+track pads I tried (not Carbotechs) - hence moving to dedicated track pads (Carbotech XP series).

HOWEVER...when I tried the Carbotech 1521 as my street pad, I was disappointed. Bite, feel, and overall braking force felt weaker than the stock Brembo pads that car came with - which were actually pretty excellent street pads, aside from being very dusty. (Note: I think that car's stock Brembo pads were better / more aggressive than the M3P's stock Brembo pads.) The 1521's certainly weren't the worst street pad I've used but not the best either, for my taste/preferences. I ended up going back to that car's stock Brembo pads as my street pads.

I never used the Carbotech AX6 or did any autocross, but if I were to take up autox I'd definitely shortlist the AX6 as a pad to try, based on how good Carbotech's track pads were for me.

 

[Aggmeister2010]

Thanks for the insights. I’m pretty disappointed with the pedal feel from the factory S brakes, and figure braided lines and bigger calipers may help firm that up, of course with added stopping power on such a big car.

 

[tm1v2]

Thanks for the insights. I’m pretty disappointed with the pedal feel from the factory S brakes, and figure braided lines and bigger calipers may help firm that up, of course with added stopping power on such a big car.

@Aggmeister2010 The one time I switched out a car's brake lines from factory rubber to braided stainless steel, in an attempt to improve its pedal feel, the SS lines made basically no difference in daily driving. The brakes on that car (a different car from the one I referenced in my brake pads post) were mushy and remained so with the SS lines. Maybe SS lines make more difference in racetrack driving? I only ever did one track day in that car, my first track day ever, so I can't really say.

On my next car, that I did a bunch more track days in, I never bothered replacing the factory rubber lines and never felt any need to. It had good pedal feel right from the factory despite rubber lines, and once I started using good track pads for track days (the aforementioned Carbotech XP series) its brakes felt great on track too (using DOT4 fluid too of course).



So based on my experiences, I feel like replacing good-condition rubber lines with braided SS is a waste of money for a street car, and questionable even for a car that sees occasional track days but is still primarily street-driven.

 

[Motion122]

@Aggmeister2010 The one time I switched out a car's brake lines from factory rubber to braided stainless steel, in an attempt to improve its pedal feel, the SS lines made basically no difference in daily driving. The brakes on that car (a different car from the one I referenced in my brake pads post) were mushy and remained so with the SS lines. Maybe SS lines make more difference in racetrack driving? I only ever did one track day in that car, my first track day ever, so I can't really say.

On my next car, that I did a bunch more track days in, I never bothered replacing the factory rubber lines and never felt any need to. It had good pedal feel right from the factory despite rubber lines, and once I started using good track pads for track days (the aforementioned Carbotech XP series) its brakes felt great on track too (using DOT4 fluid too of course).



So based on my experiences, I feel like replacing good-condition rubber lines with braided SS is a waste of money for a street car, and questionable even for a car that sees occasional track days but is still primarily street-driven.

SS lines are mostly for abrasion resistance and for moisture permeation. SS lines use PTFE lining to stop moisture permeation. Although the PTFE lining may have less expansion properties, it's not something you will feel by making the switch. More critical in pedal feel is the reduction of any master cylinder movement with the paper thin firewalls in modern cars, stiffness of the calipers and pad material selection.

 

[kylenater]

Posted on another thread but I wanted to get the word out:

I just tested out the Paragon rotors for my Model 3. These rotors look nice on the street, but perform like garbage when they get hot. I installed these rotors this past weekend and began the bed-in process for the pads/rotors. When the rotors got up to track temperatures, the brakes began to grind in the front and rub in the back. I worked with Paragon the whole week to help diagnose the problem. They kept on insisting it was my calipers, pads, fitment, etc. I KNOW I INSTALLED THIS KIT RIGHT, but I still tore everything apart again and verified everything was functioning properly. It is the identical to the install process of the MPP rotors. And I doubted my $800 Endless pads were the cause of the problem, I just bought them new on 10/7.

When I got back home after some hard driving, I discovered that the rotors were expanding so much under high heat that they no longer cleared the inner caliper. The rotors were shaving off my inner caliper and damaging them!!! See attached pictures.

I could maybe recommend these rotors as an aesthetic upgrade for the street, but they completely fail for performance driving. Having grinding/shuttering brakes while in race conditions is not only unacceptable, but just plain unsafe. Definitely will be stepping into the MPP BBK rotors once I get my coins from Paragon.

I wasted my time, energy, and money on these and can only be disappointed in myself for trying to save a few hundred bucks. I learned my first and last lesson with budget performance parts, never again. Buy quality, either MPP or get a full on BBK.