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Anybody still bother with Ecotricity chargers with the new 6GBP tariff?

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use a high-availability £60,000 machine

... subsidised by the tax payer. The tax payer made that subsidy to promote electric car usage. Now the price of electricity is the same as petrol the incentive is gone and without competition to drive the price down the subsidy will become a complete waste of public money and delay the introduction BEVs with huge longer term consequences e.g. pollution, loss of momentum on reducing carbon footprint, etc.

I'd be happy for government to subsidise the charge at these machines - assuming that operator does need that level of fee (although I suspect that "machines are paid for already, make whatever £ you can, don't care if they are barely utilised" may well apply, but I have no knowledge on which to base that)

It would have prevented this sense of entitlement from those people who seem to think they can rock up and use a high-availability £60,000 machine in a premium location for less than the cost of a medium latte.

I expect you are right in how some people perceive it, my issue is purely that a price level same-as-petrol this will delay BEV uptake
 
... subsidised by the tax payer.

Not really.

The 74 chargers installed by the EU RCN were subsidised by EU tax payers and the RCN partners.

The rest were paid for by Nissan/Renault and Ecotricty.

You might find the final RCN report enlightening, but one key point in the summary is:

Under the lowest, most conservative growth scenario (10% market share in 2030), investors could either sell the recharging service at a minimum variable price of 3.5 times their kWh purchase price or at 5.5GBP per charge. They would recover their investment in 10 years. Setting their price levels at either 5 times their energy purchase price or at 7.8GBP per charge will achieve a return of 15% and pay back the investment costs in circa 8 years.

I expect you are right in how some people perceive it, my issue is purely that a price level same-as-petrol this will delay BEV uptake

Funny thing about Petrol. The less we use, the more oversupply, the cheaper it will be.

Most people only charge away from home as an exception, which means that it is unreasonable to say that high prices at motorway services will prevent EV adoption. In a 90D, you have already driven 200 motorway miles for <£10 (home charging) before you need to spend £18 (with Ecotricity) to get a full battery. In an M5, you would be looking at a £50-ish petrol bill for the same 200 motorway miles, plus another £50-ish at the MSA for the next 200 miles.
 
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The less we use, the more oversupply, the cheaper it will b

Yes, that's a big worry. I can't see the price going back up again. Renewables must be 10% - 20% (whatever, we are installing more over time - and USA mining for Shale / Facking etc., and currently friends with all oil producing states ...), so demand for Crude is reducing, plus efficient use of oil has improve (although low incentive to keep doing that, or installing more renewables, if Crude price is low / falls)

I'm disappointed that with falling Crude price government didn't introduce a variable Green tax - which kept the consumer price constant. It would make us less competitive internationally I suppose ...

Most people only charge away from home as an exception, which means that it is unreasonable to say that high prices at motorway services will prevent EV adoption

For Tesla owners ... perhaps in a year or two's time all BEVs will be 200+ mile range, but right now all the Leafs (particularly those that are a couple of years old with seriously depleted batteries) are presumably frequent away-from-home chargers, and if they are telling all their mates "now costs a fortune to charge up" that's bad PR.

I have no idea how often Tesla's charged at Type-2 etc. public chargers (i.e. compared to Leafs etc.). I presume "not much" if there was a Supercharge en route, nor if the car was within striking distance of home charging. Can't see Type-2 etc. being any use until they beef the current - does that carry the requirement that all the existing Kit will have to be scrapped? or has it [hopefully!] all been installed "high-AMP-ready?"

In an M5, you would be looking at a £50-ish petrol bill for the same 200 motorway miles

I think you are being unfair to the M5 :) at a motorway cruise it, and other reasonably like-for-like sedans similar to Model S, should be 30+ MPG - so £30-35 for fuel for 200 miles. Personally I stopped driving fuel-hungry vehicles more than a decade ago, so I'm coming from 60 MPG Eco vehicles, thus great for me to have a high performance sedan again, the like of which I have not owned for quite a while.
 
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I am sorry J1mbo, I guess we will have to agree to differ. I can see no reason why any company should be prevented from installing Charging points at Motorway services to encourage take up of Electric vehicles. Motorway services in general have huge amounts of space in the car parks. I don't require the Tesla charger to be outside the front door. I don't mind if its the far away. I just don't see why we cant have multiple power vendors at the services. They can all run there own models and decide what to charge or not.

I really resent the comment on the value of the Tesla vehicle. I spent 25 years saving up so I can have the car of my dreams. The car company Tesla that I am passionate about kindly includes charging in the price of my car SO I AM PAYING FOR IT IN THE PRICE of purchase. This entitles me to charge now and into the future for free from any Tesla superchargers. Of coarse as a Tesla owner I am biased towards Tesla, because it works!!! If owners of other brands are bothered ask your car company why they are not investing in providing a charging network for their cars, no doubt they might also respond that they are also prevented in providing charging points on the UK tax payer,paid for Motorway network by these stupid exclusivity contracts. Lets also not forget that we are going to need more and more chargers as the electric revolution takes place over the coming few years so why o why would anyone want to prevent more charge points at key places is beyond me.
 
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I am sorry J1mbo, I guess we will have to agree to differ. I can see no reason why any company should be prevented from installing Charging points at Motorway services to encourage take up of Electric vehicles. Motorway services in general have huge amounts of space in the car parks. I don't require the Tesla charger to be outside the front door. I don't mind if its the far away. I just don't see why we cant have multiple power vendors at the services. They can all run there own models and decide what to charge or not.

I really resent the comment on the value of the Tesla vehicle. I spent 25 years saving up so I can have the car of my dreams. The car company Tesla that I am passionate about kindly includes charging in the price of my car SO I AM PAYING FOR IT IN THE PRICE of purchase. This entitles me to charge now and into the future for free from any Tesla superchargers. Of coarse as a Tesla owner I am biased towards Tesla, because it works!!! If owners of other brands are bothered ask your car company why they are not investing in providing a charging network for their cars, no doubt they might also respond that they are also prevented in providing charging points on the UK tax payer,paid for Motorway network by these stupid exclusivity contracts. Lets also not forget that we are going to need more and more chargers as the electric revolution takes place over the coming few years so why o why would anyone want to prevent more charge points at key places is beyond me.

Yep. let's agree to differ.

You resent the comment on the value of the Tesla? Why? If you want to use the Supercharger network, you have to buy a Tesla. That will cost you at least £50,000.

Ecotricity customers get free access to the Electric Highway. This is because Ecotricity customers (not the taxpayer!) have been paying for it to operate and grow.

Tesla have shown that it is possible to come to an agreement with Ecotricity (and the MSA landlords) to provide an alternate charging service. No other charging network has even bothered to try, and Nissan\Renault - who already partner with Ecotricity - have stopped investing. Why do you think that is?

Better check your facts about what the tax payer has paid for. You will be disappointed.
 
J1mbo I am very clear that the UK Tax payer pays for the UK road network in its entirety unless its a toll road. I have made no comment on subsidies to companies that place the chargers as I don't have all the information. Why don't you just respond to my comment of

"I can see no reason why any company should be prevented from installing Charging points at Motorway services to encourage take up of Electric vehicles. Motorway services in general have huge amounts of space in the car parks. I don't require the Tesla charger to be outside the front door. I don't mind if its the far away. I just don't see why we cant have multiple power vendors at the services. They can all run there own models and decide what to charge or not."

Do you have some connection to Ecotricity that would prevent you from supporting open access to any companies wishing to offer charging facilities at this countries motorway network. The reason why I focus on the motorway network is that most long distance driving in this country utilizes these networks. Also most of the high powered chargers are placed on these routes. I doubt many people would op for a low powered charger if a high powered was available. Assuming that Tesla is at least helping to drive the uptake of modern electric vehicles and assuming the number on the road will considerably increase in the coming 2 - 5 years we need remove any barriers that discourage increasing the numbers and diversity of these on are countries main arteries. Thus I return to my reply to the orginal post that showed support for. I agreed that we cant allow one company to control such an important commodity and as I see it right now IN MY OPINION Ecotricity are being allowed to operate a monopoly with no chance of competition where they have exclusive deals at the majority of uk services. I also agree that any sites that tesla have exclusivity should also be open to other companies including ecotricity. We all know this is important for the future and I cant understand why anyone wouldn't support that????
 
J1mbo I am very clear that the UK Tax payer pays for the UK road network in its entirety unless its a toll road. I have made no comment on subsidies to companies that place the chargers as I don't have all the information.

Then I don't understand why you keep mentioning tax payers money at all? MSAs are privately owned retail parks, so do you want the Government to install Rapids on the hard shoulder..? :eek:

Why don't you just respond to my comment of

"I can see no reason why any company should be prevented from installing Charging points at Motorway services to encourage take up of Electric vehicles. Motorway services in general have huge amounts of space in the car parks. I don't require the Tesla charger to be outside the front door. I don't mind if its the far away. I just don't see why we cant have multiple power vendors at the services. They can all run there own models and decide what to charge or not."

Since settling with Ecotricity, Telsa have installed superchargers at a number of MSAs, and more are planned. Here's a map.

The owner of Welcome Break drives one and is apparently passionate about their success.

Nothing to stop another company from negotiating with Ecotricity and the MSAs as Tesla had to. They also would have find a way of supplying power to the site, as Tesla are having to.

All this costs shed loads of money, especially if they have to upgrade the power from the grid coming into the MSA. So the third party would want to be sure of getting a return on their investment. Based on the RCN report I linked to above, that would be at least £5.50 for half an hour, for a 10 year payback.

Maybe it is this that is stopping them? Otherwise, why haven't we heard the other providers complaining? Especially when Ecotricity were giving it all away for free - surely that is pretty uncompetitive - premium locations, free to customers? You would have expected some robust complaints, right? But, nothing.

Do you have some connection to Ecotricity that would prevent you from supporting open access to any companies wishing to offer charging facilities at this countries motorway network.

No connection, other than being a happy customer for a couple of years.

Am happy for others to operate. Always thought that BP would want to get into it, as they have done in France. But so far, none have stepped up to the mark. There are huge parts of the A-road network where others could be building their own networks, but where are they? Ever been to Cornwall, East Anglia, or North Wales? You can count the number of rapid chargers there on one hand. Maybe that should be more of a priority than trying to screw a few pennies more out of Ecotricity?

The reason why I focus on the motorway network is that most long distance driving in this country utilizes these networks. Also most of the high powered chargers are placed on these routes. I doubt many people would op for a low powered charger if a high powered was available. Assuming that Tesla is at least helping to drive the uptake of modern electric vehicles and assuming the number on the road will considerably increase in the coming 2 - 5 years we need remove any barriers that discourage increasing the numbers and diversity of these on are countries main arteries.

The only barrier for Tesla owners is the speed that Tesla can build out their network.

Thus I return to my reply to the orginal post that showed support for. I agreed that we cant allow one company to control such an important commodity and as I see it right now IN MY OPINION Ecotricity are being allowed to operate a monopoly with no chance of competition where they have exclusive deals at the majority of uk services. I also agree that any sites that tesla have exclusivity should also be open to other companies including ecotricity. We all know this is important for the future and I cant understand why anyone wouldn't support that????

Walk into an Apple shop and try to buy an HP laptop. You can't. Do Apple have a monopoly? No. They decide what goes in their stores. In the same way, MSA operaters get to decide who can operate which services in their retail parks.

Ecotricity do not have a monopoly. As a Tesla owner you are lucky enough to have a choice between Tesla and Ecotricity at many MSAs. Very handy when the Superchargers are all full.

As a Leaf owner on a tight budget, you can normally plan to bypass the MSA and leave the the motorway network to get your charge. This takes a little planning and generally costs more (unless you find a Nissan dealer). But if you have a massive problem with Ecotricity then why not.

I can't understand why you want competiton just for charging in a place where there is no competiton. Or why you think £6 is too much when the alternative suppliers are more expensive, despite being Government funded!

Let's agree to differ and move on.
 
Motorways Service Area are exactly that public places for people to take a rest, est food and drink and take on fuel. They are only there because of the motorway. You can't get to most of them without driving up or down the motorway. To do that you need energy, either petroleum,gas or electricity. Your very good at twisting what I said to make many unhelpful comments. You keep making out tesla and ecotricity have sorted there differences but everything I read in the press suggest a very unhappy and negative relationship. With various subsequent legal actions following there court settlement whose terms were not made public. I just looked at the map for super chargers that are actually placed at motorway services and I can count them on my hand. I then looked at the ecotricity one and I could hardly find a motorway services there isn't one. If tesla could build them at these services they would but as we know most have exclusivity contracts with ecotricity which prevents it. Until I see it announced by ecotricity that they welcome competition and that they are not blocking tesla or any other company offering services of their own at these sites I will like most view this as anti competitive and as such they should be considered to be operating a monopoly. Why should you care your already an ecotricity customer and thus get free charging so you of coarse really objective on this subject. Yes let's not agree, to be honest I am amazed your even a tesla owner.
 
Whilst details have not been made public, it's fairly clear that:
  • Ecotricity have negotiated exclusive rights to install EV charging with most of the site operators that they deal with - notably the large motorway service operator groups.
  • The settlement of the legal actions has resulted in the exclusivity being lifted specifically at sites operated by Welcome Break.
  • Exclusivity at at least some other sites remains in place.
 
All this costs shed loads of money

Tesla has 34 cars [on the road] per supercharger stall, and back when the price was optional it was US$2,000 for unlimited Supercharger use. Putting to one side the cost of electricity (not very expensive compared to installation capital cost and, in future, to be funded by pay-per-visit, or whatever, Model 3 owners) and assuming an average of 10 stalls per site there's US$680,000 to help fund the installation.

Very handy when the Superchargers are all full.

It would be quicker for me to park up and wait 10 minutes IF all stalls were full, rather than to charge at lower power. Tesla will have 10 - 20 stalls, so one will come free within a few minutes - whereas Ecotricity is likely to have only a couple - and if there is a huge queue then the Ecotricity ones are going to be already occupied for some multiple of 30 minutes (I presume nothing to stop someone paying twice?)
 
Tesla has 34 cars [on the road] per supercharger stall, and back when the price was optional it was US$2,000 for unlimited Supercharger use. Putting to one side the cost of electricity (not very expensive compared to installation capital cost and, in future, to be funded by pay-per-visit, or whatever, Model 3 owners) and assuming an average of 10 stalls per site there's US$680,000 to help fund the installation.

The $2000 was a marketing number to make the 60 look cheaper, and the 85 look like better value. It had nothing to do with the cost of installing and running a supercharger. FWIW, Tesla now account for the superchargers in the marketing budget.

If you ever get to West Drayton, ask them how much the 1MW cable cost to install for the superchargers there.

It would be quicker for me to park up and wait 10 minutes IF all stalls were full, rather than to charge at lower power. Tesla will have 10 - 20 stalls, so one will come free within a few minutes - whereas Ecotricity is likely to have only a couple - and if there is a huge queue then the Ecotricity ones are going to be already occupied for some multiple of 30 minutes (I presume nothing to stop someone paying twice?)

Maybe, maybe not. The biggest UK supercharger has 12 stalls, and not all 12 stalls are powered at the moment.

Some sites have only 2 stalls.

If someone else is already charging at the "A" stall when you arrive, there is a very high chance that you will get less power from the "B" stall than you would have got from a CHAdeMO point, at least until the "A" car is nearly finished.
 
It had nothing to do with the cost of installing and running a supercharger. FWIW, Tesla now account for the superchargers in the marketing budget.

Sure, the analogy was mine. The $2,000 became built into the price AFAICR (rather than just "dropped" I mean), so there is $2,000 in the price of each car sold that originated as a Supercharger-fee. Marketing money comes from sales of course ... I don't think its unreasonable to put some sort of calculation on how much that might be, but its my speculation. I don't doubt that a 1MW cable is expensive, other sites will already have suitable supply, so its swings and roundabouts.

at least until the "A" car is nearly finished.

Tapering starts a lot sooner than "nearly finished". In practice if the first car has been there for 10 minutes, and given that its unlikely that the first car arrived bone-dry, then the second car will get little or no reduction. It works well in practice, on average.

There is talk of some popular superchargers in California being full on public holidays etc. I don't read of it happening much elsewhere, so its currently a non-event; certainly I've never arrived at a supercharger that was full - I have taken the last slot, but all the other cars were gone within 5 - 10 minutes, which would be about right on average if there are half a dozen stalls, or more, and average stay is 30 minutes or so.

Some sites have only 2 stalls

Ones built recently? I daresay where this is little demand, and space is very tight, that might (not unreasonably) be the case even for new installs, but in practice Tesla is building bigger and bigger sites as time goes on. I have no idea how many stalls Ecotricity sites have (I see plenty on Plugshare with 2 stalls but I have no personal knowledge), or how easily they can be expanded when there is more demand; it will be disappointing if Ecotricity has a monopoly [at a given location] and doesn't either upgrade their hardware to higher power chargers as the standard evolves, nor installs more chargers as demand increases. Time will tell on those points of course.
 
Tapering starts a lot sooner than "nearly finished". In practice if the first car has been there for 10 minutes, and given that its unlikely that the first car arrived bone-dry, then the second car will get little or no reduction. It works well in practice, on average.

Not sure who this anecdote was intended for? I've been doing this for over 2 years so have the benefit of real life experience...
 
I was wondering if tesla uk have a list of sites for super charger deployments for 2016 - 2018 or places they have already decided upon or is it a more organic thing. Does tesla have their own people install the superchargers or is it farmed out . Finally anyone tried suggesting sites and been successful. I recommended a couple of sites in Southampton will be interested to see if it comes to anything.
 
I was wondering if tesla uk have a list of sites for super charger deployments for 2016 - 2018 or places they have already decided upon or is it a more organic thing. Does tesla have their own people install the superchargers or is it farmed out . Finally anyone tried suggesting sites and been successful. I recommended a couple of sites in Southampton will be interested to see if it comes to anything.

Tesla don't publish anything about new sites until they open. This has been explained to me as arising from the fact that sites very often fall through at the last minute for myriad reasons or are subject to unpredictable delays (legal sign-off from multiple parties involved, uncertainties of timescale for electrical supply etc), and they have to persue multiple possibilities for each location - not wanting to close the door to negotiations with "plan B" until "plan A" has actually worked out.

Tesla subcontract the actual construction work for supercharger sites (civil works, electrical wiring), but I believe their own people are involved in final commissioning.
 
The Ecotricity chargers at MSA's, well, ICE drivers pay a premium for filling up so I guess I can understand that. Premium at ALL Ecotricity chargers, that's another matter. No doubt it's going to cost them to have them sitting idle, but not as much as when they were free to use. Market forces will win out eventually.
 
If an Ecotricity site is in a location where you need it, it's worth spending the £6 per 30 minutes so you can get where you're going. The fee is less than what the largest CHAdeMO network in the US charges for occasional users. NRG eVgo charges $10.95 for 30 minutes ($4.95+$0.20/minute). A plan is available for frequent users with a $15/month fee, no session fee, and $0.10/minute charging.
 
I no longer use the Ecotricity Rapids and have no intention of doing so. We are a 3 EV household but when replacement time comes we will be reconsidering. It's simply not worth £6/30min to be stuck waiting for a charge when we can take another car. I'm also bored of the lack of alternative models, all EV looks boring compared to my roadster, really expected some attractive alternatives by now.