Anyone comparing the e-tron GT to the Model S

[Hurricane]

Audi seem to have everyone convinced of their quality ... members feedback to Which said something different:

"You’d think a luxury car brand would be reassuringly reliable, but in Audi's case you’d be wrong. Feedback from Audi’s owners reveals lacklustre reliability in its cars' first three years of life, and downright disappointing dependability for cars aged three to eight years. At first glance, Audi’s average fault rate of 26% among its 0-3-year-old cars doesn’t seem alarming. But the breakdown rate of 8.5% raises an eyebrow. It’s the third highest we’ve seen across cars this young. That means that one in 12 owners we heard from had their Audi break down at least once in the 12 months prior to filling in our latest survey."

Read more: Should I buy an Audi? - Which?

Quality and reliability are not the same thing. My point is that Audi knocks the socks off Tesla in terms of comfort and refinement and build quality in similarly priced vehicles. It’s not even close.

Everyone will have their own experience with reliability. I’ve owned eight new Audis and only had one warranty repair - a faulty bonnet release catch. It’s partly that reliability that has kept me faithful to the marque. I can’t comment on long term reliability because in 38 years of driving I’ve never kept a car more than 3 years and I’ve never had to get an MOT.

 

[Peteski]

Quality and reliability are not the same thing. My point is that Audi knocks the socks off Tesla in terms of comfort and refinement and build quality in similarly priced vehicles. It’s not even close.

Everyone will have their own experience with reliability. I’ve owned eight new Audis and only had one warranty repair - a faulty bonnet release catch. It’s partly that reliability that has kept me faithful to the marque. I can’t comment on long term reliability because in 38 years of driving I’ve never kept a car more than 3 years and I’ve never had to get an MOT.

Maybe the e-tron GT will be your ideal car then. I presume you are getting one?

I was disappointed with the e-tron SUV as a potential Model X replacement. But the GT looks like it could be a more focused EV effort, rather than a converted ICE mash-up like the SUV.

 

[Hurricane]

Maybe the e-tron GT will be your ideal car then. I presume you are getting one?

I was disappointed with the e-tron SUV as a potential Model X replacement. But the GT looks like it could be a more focused EV effort, rather than a converted ICE mash-up like the SUV.

Unfortunately there’s no such thing as an ideal car - there always has to be some compromise. Also, I really don’t want an SUV. I won’t be changing my car for another 18 months so too early to decide yet, so I’ll see what’s available at the time. Nor will I write Tesla off yet, but if they don’t improve refinement, still can’t get the wipers to work properly and don’t offer matrix headlights then it will be a definite no.

 

[Peteski]

Latest Model 3 does actually have matrix headlights, but they are not functional at the moment. It’s not a big deal for me either way, but I expect they will implement them in software at some point. Auto wipers I couldn’t care less about. Certainly wouldn’t make my top 100 priority list for choosing a new car.

Model 3 refinement may not be that great, but it rides better than many sporty Audis I’ve driven over the years. A friend of mine has a fairly new TT and that is a pretty harsh, crashy ride. Another friend has an A6 which is very comfortable, but totally dull and uninspiring. FWIW our MX is more refined than our M3, but less fun to drive.

I guess refinement is simply not a top priority for me beyond a certain point. But I do care about ride quality and handling and Tesla do a pretty good job in that regard right across their range. Not that far behind Porsche in terms of their ride/handling compromise. I’m sure that will get a few reactions, but I’ve owned enough 911s to make that comparison. Audi tend to make their cars either too anemic or too harsh for my taste. I’ve lost count of the number of Audi test drives I’ve had where I was disappointed with either the ride or handling. Porsche do a much better job, but it never seems to filter across for whatever reason.

 

[DJP31]

My point is that Audi knocks the socks off Tesla in terms of comfort and refinement and build quality in similarly priced vehicles. It’s not even close.

I don't agree. I've a household of Audi's and they are great cars, no argument about that. I'm on my second Model S and yes, Audi build quality is better but not that much better.

I really want to consider the GT and love the external looks. But, it has less range, is slower, is smaller, doesn't have the charging network and is more expensive. Much more expensive if I want the quick one. Then factor in the Tesla OTA updates and the refreshing lack of buttons and, for me, when I look at the Audi I'm left with an inferior overall package.

Luckily I don't have to think about it for at least a couple of years, but I'm not a fan of the landscape screen in the refresh S either .

 

[Hurricane]

I don't agree. I've a household of Audi's and they are great cars, no argument about that. I'm on my second Model S and yes, Audi build quality is better but not that much better.

I really want to consider the GT and love the external looks. But, it has less range, is slower, is smaller, doesn't have the charging network and is more expensive. Much more expensive if I want the quick one. Then factor in the Tesla OTA updates and the refreshing lack of buttons and, for me, when I look at the Audi I'm left with an inferior overall package.

Luckily I don't have to think about it for at least a couple of years, but I'm not a fan of the landscape screen in the refresh S either .

My emphasis is on comfort and refinement rather than build quality. The build quality on my M3P is adequate but not brilliant, but it isn’t nearly as refined as a car should be in this price range.

The Model S and X are into Audi A8 and Q8 territory on price, both superbly refined cars and in a completely different league to the Teslas. The GT will almost certainly be available at a substantial discount before too long. As I said earlier, you decide on your compromise and make your choice.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Unfortunately there’s no such thing as an ideal car - there always has to be some compromise. Also, I really don’t want an SUV. I won’t be changing my car for another 18 months so too early to decide yet, so I’ll see what’s available at the time. Nor will I write Tesla off yet, but if they don’t improve refinement, still can’t get the wipers to work properly and don’t offer matrix headlights then it will be a definite no.

I share you feelings. BMW not Audi in our case and my wife has a BMW. I get the feeling some people compare their new 50k Tesla to a BMW/Audi that they maybe owned in the past making the design 10 years old or a different make of car that cost half a much as their Tesla. Easy to stereotype but I repeatedly see comments about those makes which don't reflect the latest models.

The matrix headlights may be fitted but given they can't reliably apply auto full beam at the moment after 4 years of trying. the chances of them being able to blank out cars in front and do some of the tricks the latest gen headlights in other makes can do is some way off.

I'd love to know what the 100 features of a car are that some rank more highly than basics like auto wipers. It was a problem pretty much solved 40 years and has just gone backwards with Tesla.

 

[thegruf]

The e-tron is a no for me for these reasons:

range (efficiency)
awful Audi dealer experience
Tesla superchargers
and vs my P100D performance too, although I accept the base model is enough for many people.

and in all honesty I dont actually particularly like the look of it - it is fussy, overstyled like they didnt know when to put the pen down, and oddly proportioned from some angles. The original RS5 I had was the pinnacle of Audi styling for me, but the dealer experience was horrific. No way am I going back to that.

my personal opinion, even if it is not the same as others views, and definitely the more competiton the better.

I will certainly take a hard look at the EQS too.

Tesla might have my money but sadly they have done much to unnecessarily damage my brand loyalty, to be fair things are improving, but it will be open season when I need to replace it.

 

[Peteski]

I share you feelings. BMW not Audi in our case and my wife has a BMW. I get the feeling some people compare their new 50k Tesla to a BMW/Audi that they maybe owned in the past making the design 10 years old or a different make of car that cost half a much as their Tesla. Easy to stereotype but I repeatedly see comments about those makes which don't reflect the latest models.

The matrix headlights may be fitted but given they can't reliably apply auto full beam at the moment after 4 years of trying. the chances of them being able to blank out cars in front and do some of the tricks the latest gen headlights in other makes can do is some way off.

I'd love to know what the 100 features of a car are that some rank more highly than basics like auto wipers. It was a problem pretty much solved 40 years and has just gone backwards with Tesla.

I just get the feeling you chose the wrong car. Tesla obviously doesn’t care much about auto wipers and neither do I. The things I do care about eg performance, ride, handling, UI, style, practicality, space, range, charging etc. are all Tesla strong points and particularly so when comparing against direct EV competitors.
BMW don’t even make a comparable EV yet and I dislike their current styling and interior UI. A couple of years ago I very briefly considered buying an i8 (which I do like the exterior design). But once I sat inside one I soon changed my mind. It was like something out of the mid 80s compared to a Tesla.

I do know what you mean about people comparing against older cars, but you see that with Tesla too. I drove a pre-face lift S for the first time a few weeks ago and the interior was pretty awful compared to a current S. I was shocked at how poor the screen was and it looked terrible without a proper centre console. Interior quality and finish was also terrible and the plastics felt cheap and nasty. It was actually living up to the claims some people make about very poor Tesla fit and finish. But the current Model S is very nice inside and I would have none of these complaints.

 

[Type2]

Latest Model 3 does actually have matrix headlights, but they are not functional at the moment. It’s not a big deal for me either way, but I expect they will implement them in software at some point.

Latest Model 3 does actually have matrix headlights, but they are not functional at the moment. It’s not a big deal for me either way, but I expect they will implement them in software at some point.

Has this actually been confirmed? There is lots of speculation that the refreshed M3 has matrix headlights but I’ve not yet seen hard evidence. The headlights are certainly very much improved (from a very low starting point) but are they matrix? They are probably adaptive, but adaptive isn’t matrix.

In fact I thought that even the new model MS and MX only have bog standard LEDs. A bit of an omission on a £130k car.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I just get the feeling you chose the wrong car. Tesla obviously doesn’t care much about auto wipers and neither do I. The things I do care about eg performance, ride, handling, UI, style, practicality, space, range, charging etc. are all Tesla strong points and particularly so when comparing against direct EV competitors.
BMW don’t even make a comparable EV yet and I dislike their current styling and interior UI. A couple of years ago I very briefly considered buying an i8 (which I do like the exterior design). But once I sat inside one I soon changed my mind. It was like something out of the mid 80s compared to a Tesla.

I do know what you mean about people comparing against older cars, but you see that with Tesla too. I drove a pre-face lift S for the first time a few weeks ago and the interior was pretty awful compared to a current S. I was shocked at how poor the screen was and it looked terrible without a proper centre console. Interior quality and finish was also terrible and the plastics felt cheap and nasty. It was actually living up to the claims some people make about very poor Tesla fit and finish. But the current Model S is very nice inside and I would have none of these complaints.

I've been in a Tesla for 6 years so I don't think you can say I didn't pick the right car.. The first had a rain sensor, auto headlights and AP1 and was brilliant The second didn't and in some respects it was a backward step and still playing catch up in some areas to cars Tesla themselves were building 5 years ago. AP1 never phantom braked for an example. I can't even buy a new one now to replace what I've got. What I'm saying is there's nothing magical about it and I've spent all that time waiting for Tesla to deliver on some of the promises and I'm still waiting.

Ride and handling, Tesla aren't any better, not really much worse, but where are the different suspension modes where you tighten things up or waft a long at the press of a button? Lets hope the revised MS and MX have something better going on in that department. If it doesn't then other than a new interior then it seems essentially the same car.

I'd agree nothing about the BMW planned EVs looks particularly appealing, but the etron GT does look like a significant rival to the new Model S. I'm also not bothered about the charging network anymore, it's a comfort blanket but when you watch some of the videos posted on here, it seems increasingly easy to charge on third parties chargers when you need to.

I guess I'm saying the Tesla magic is wearing off and I'm very disappointed with what I've seen to far with the MS facelift not to mention the delays.

 

[Peteski]

Has this actually been confirmed? There is lots of speculation that the refreshed M3 has matrix headlights but I’ve not yet seen hard evidence. The headlights are certainly very much improved (from a very low starting point) but are they matrix? They are probably adaptive, but adaptive isn’t matrix.

In fact I thought that even the new model MS and MX only have bog standard LEDs. A bit of an omission on a £130k car.

Well they definitely have the XCERTV label on the front lens, so they have the potential to be adaptive at the very least. What makes me think they are matrix is the way the beam looks very sharp and pixelated. There was also a video showing some software mode where the beam pattern changed to something completely different. But I haven’t bothered to look into it any further. On a practical level they are plenty bright enough and wide enough, but auto dimming is still poor as before.

 

[Peteski]

I've been in a Tesla for 6 years so I don't think you can say I didn't pick the right car.. The first had a rain sensor, auto headlights and AP1 and was brilliant The second didn't and in some respects it was a backward step and still playing catch up in some areas to cars Tesla themselves were building 5 years ago. AP1 never phantom braked for an example. I can't even buy a new one now to replace what I've got. What I'm saying is there's nothing magical about it and I've spent all that time waiting for Tesla to deliver on some of the promises and I'm still waiting.

Ride and handling, Tesla aren't any better, not really much worse, but where are the different suspension modes where you tighten things up or waft a long at the press of a button? Lets hope the revised MS and MX have something better going on in that department. If it doesn't then other than a new interior then it seems essentially the same car.

I'd agree nothing about the BMW planned EVs looks particularly appealing, but the etron GT does look like a significant rival to the new Model S. I'm also not bothered about the charging network anymore, it's a comfort blanket but when you watch some of the videos posted on here, it seems increasingly easy to charge on third parties chargers when you need to.

I guess I'm saying the Tesla magic is wearing off and I'm very disappointed with what I've seen to far with the MS facelift not to mention the delays.

That’s all fair comment. But the things that clearly annoy you and others, such as auto-wipers and auto-lights simply don’t register on my radar. It’s not that I wouldn’t prefer them to be better, but they don’t factor into my choice of car.

The Tesla charging network is still very important for me (and free). I’m sure the public network will improve, but having access to both is still very appealing, especially as the EV population is likely to grow rapidly over the next 5 years. I’m still hearing too many stories about non-working chargers and issues with initiating a charge on ones that do work. It sounds like a pita at the moment. It’s something I would consider very closely before buying any EV other than a Tesla.

 

[Peteski]

My emphasis is on comfort and refinement rather than build quality. The build quality on my M3P is adequate but not brilliant, but it isn’t nearly as refined as a car should be in this price range.

The Model S and X are into Audi A8 and Q8 territory on price, both superbly refined cars and in a completely different league to the Teslas. The GT will almost certainly be available at a substantial discount before too long. As I said earlier, you decide on your compromise and make your choice.

I’m surprised you chose an M3P given your clear priorities. What car did you have before? I’m guessing it was more of a sofa cruiser, which the M3P really isn’t.

 

[thegruf]

I've been in a Tesla for 6 years so I don't think you can say I didn't pick the right car.. The first had a rain sensor, auto headlights and AP1 and was brilliant
...

I guess I'm saying the Tesla magic is wearing off and I'm very disappointed with what I've seen to far with the MS facelift not to mention the delays.

I'm in a similar situation.

AP1 was indeed very good for much of the time, except it was useless at seeing stationary vehicles ahead, and every crest of a hill AP1 would jerk hard right or left and scare the heck out of you, similarly with large painted arrows on the road it was a lottery which way it would go.

The wipers though, honestly this is the epitome of Elon's hubris. A dirt cheap LED/sensor that works reasonably well in every other vehicle on the road is replaced with a huge amount of AI DNN computing power that flat out doesn't work properly. On this one somebody should have told Elon not to try to fix something that wasn't broken. Auto headlights Tesla have never got to grips with properly either.
I have much praise for Tesla for grasping the mettle and building their own autopilot from scratch, but they really do have to iron out the kinks in some of the basic stuff.

I beleive the new raven suspension is tunable so they have addressed that.

This all does depend on your priorities of course, what Tesla is quite discreet about though is just how much is included as standard without resorting to an option list, each of which will be worth precisely zero at resale.

I am actually suspecting the new MS will be really rather good, and refined too with the new suspension and active anti-noise as standard.
Best of all with a way to go yet before changing, I will hopefully have a good few choices available to me.

 

[Peteski]

This all does depend on your priorities of course, what Tesla is quite discreet about though is just how much is included as standard without resorting to an option list, each of which will be worth precisely zero at resale.

It makes me laugh that some Porsche models until quite recently came with halogen headlights as standard. Obviously most were upgraded to LED, but it was a paid option. It's hard to spec a Porsche to a reasonable standard without adding at least £10-15k in options. Tesla is much better in this regard as long as you steer clear of FSD!

 

[Peteski]

I am actually suspecting the new MS will be really rather good, and refined too with the new suspension and active anti-noise as standard.
Best of all with a way to go yet before changing, I will hopefully have a good few choices available to me.

I think it will be very good too. The only issue I would have is that it's all still based on a 10+ year old exterior design. That's more of a psychological barrier for me because I don't think it looks dated at all. It's more that I would like to see an all-new Tesla design for their flagship car in 2022.

I'm due to replace my MX next year, but for the same reason I'm not going to consider buying the refresh MX. My plan at the moment is to downsize to a Model Y, but an all-new MX would have been my preference. I will also look at alternatives to a Tesla, but current offerings like the I-Pace, Polestar and e-tron SUV are not tempting me away. The MX has set the EV bar very high for me over the last 3 years, despite some of it's quirks and software glitches. MCU1 is now also struggling to run the latest software. If I was keeping this car long term I would upgrade it to MCU2 for sure.

 

[Mrklaw]

its all small pieces that build up - Tesla is supposed to be at the forefront of AI and autonomous driving. If they can’t even get reliable auto wipes/high beams working well which are ‘hygiene’ features on much lower priced cars, then I think its reasonable that people would give a bit of a side-eye at their other claims.

 

[Peteski]

its all small pieces that build up - Tesla is supposed to be at the forefront of AI and autonomous driving. If they can’t even get reliable auto wipes/high beams working well which are ‘hygiene’ features on much lower priced cars, then I think its reasonable that people would give a bit of a side-eye at their other claims.

Ironically it's probably Tesla's stubborn single-minded focus on fully autonomous driving that has caused these issues arising with "basic" systems in the first place. There is clearly zero development resource going on wipers and very little on headlights. But the other much more important "basics" of an EV are still very much class leading i.e range, efficiency, performance, charging. So I'm happy to take the compromise of having bog standard LED lights and effectively manual wipers. I'm not going to get overly obsessed over that sort of stuff unless other manufacturers start getting their "EV basics" totally nailed. Who really has got the right priorities here? Tesla have risen out of nowhere for a very good reason and it had nothing to do with wipers or headlights!

 

[gangzoom]

What I find amusing the design path Mercedes have choose for their flagship car.....

Kind of remind of me of my 4 years old Tesla.

I think you can pretty much bet the OS on the Mercedes system isn't going to change that much post delivery. As we know v11 software is around the corner, and something* from the FSD beta development will hopefully appear.

I'm using a laptop from 2013 but I can play Cyberpunk on in thanks to Stadia, my phone takes better pictures than my DSLR using computational software, we live in a world dominated by software progress much more than hardware. Tesla are in a different league when it comes to software integration in the car.