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  • The final cut of TMC Podcast #34 is available now with topics timestamped. We covered Tesla's rollercoaster prices, Toyota pushing junk science, Mike's new Model 3, Optimizing track mode for snow driving, FSD V11 apparently coming by the end of this week, and more. You can watch and check out the chat replay on YouTube.

MdlYYY

Member
Oct 13, 2022
26
10
US
Thanks for the input — you might be right about being overly cautious. Do you find Autosteer provides relief for the arms similar to cruise control for the legs?
I thank I pay more attention the little I do use auto steer. I don’t live in a city with perfect lines on the roads. When I’m on the highway and the lines move a little, so does the car! Don’t get me started on the phantom braking. I should not have to have my foot over the accelerator in case the car sees a bridge and decides to hit the brakes! If there was a way to get normal cruise without a following distance, I would definitely pay for that!
 
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Mikecm1

Mike
Supporting Member
Oct 17, 2020
139
169
San Diego
I thank I pay more attention the little I do use auto steer. I don’t live in a city with perfect lines on the roads. When I’m on the highway and the lines move a little, so does the car! Don’t get me started on the phantom braking. I should not have to have my foot over the accelerator in case the car sees a bridge and decides to hit the brakes! If there was a way to get normal cruise without a following distance, I would definitely pay for that!

Phantom braking events still happening often for you? I’m still on the software version that keeps radar activated and would obviously like to update, but I’m not interested if it’s gonna nerf AP in any way.
 
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I can't speak for others, but phantom braking continues to be an issue for our 2021 Model Y. During our trip across Canada in November we had long sections — entire days — with no phantom events. Night and bad weather were mostly fine. But across the Prairies in clear sections phantom braking could happen several times per hour (and, yes, there were some mirages present during the phantom events but not always). Some of the braking events were minor — little blips. Some were stronger where you might lose 20-30 km/h speed (12-19 mph). But occasionally, the braking was hard enough to cause the seatbelts to catch us and our speed was cut down significantly — like a rapid drop from 120 to 70 km/h (75 to 44 mph). For this reason I don't use cruise control if there's anyone behind me.
 
I can't speak for others, but phantom braking continues to be an issue for our 2021 Model Y. During our trip across Canada in November we had long sections — entire days — with no phantom events. Night and bad weather were mostly fine. But across the Prairies in clear sections phantom braking could happen several times per hour (and, yes, there were some mirages present during the phantom events but not always). Some of the braking events were minor — little blips. Some were stronger where you might lose 20-30 km/h speed (12-19 mph). But occasionally, the braking was hard enough to cause the seatbelts to catch us and our speed was cut down significantly — like a rapid drop from 120 to 70 km/h (75 to 44 mph). For this reason I don't use cruise control if there's anyone behind me.
What software version? This seems like what we experienced prior to the latest we are on (2022.36.6)
 
@OxBrew, I saw your post earlier and checked and I believe we were running 2022.36.6 or above for the whole trip across Canada in November. Of course I can't say for sure that our phantom events were due to mirages, but many of the phantom events we did have at least coincided with mirages. It's also possible some hardware/software combinations produce different results. Would be interesting to hear either way how it is for you going forward — if you think it's been eliminated for you.

I assume there's just a very long list of things that can lead to phantom braking including mirages. Hopefully it's true that Tesla will be using high res radar or some other technology to resolve this issue and add redundancy to the system. In the meantime, every time my wipers go off for no apparent reason I'm left wondering how anyone can think any car will be capable of driving itself (safely) anytime soon. I remember being able to talk to my Power Mac back in 1994 thinking we'd soon solve speech, but here we are in 2022 and Siri can't parse IF or AND statements. To be fair, I'd strongly prefer the existing FSD to guide my car off the road than to leave it to chance if I were to fall asleep — it's way better than no driver!
 
@OxBrew, I saw your post earlier and checked and I believe we were running 2022.36.6 or above for the whole trip across Canada in November. Of course I can't say for sure that our phantom events were due to mirages, but many of the phantom events we did have at least coincided with mirages. It's also possible some hardware/software combinations produce different results. Would be interesting to hear either way how it is for you going forward — if you think it's been eliminated for you.

I assume there's just a very long list of things that can lead to phantom braking including mirages. Hopefully it's true that Tesla will be using high res radar or some other technology to resolve this issue and add redundancy to the system. In the meantime, every time my wipers go off for no apparent reason I'm left wondering how anyone can think any car will be capable of driving itself (safely) anytime soon. I remember being able to talk to my Power Mac back in 1994 thinking we'd soon solve speech, but here we are in 2022 and Siri can't parse IF or AND statements. To be fair, I'd strongly prefer the existing FSD to guide my car off the road than to leave it to chance if I were to fall asleep — it's way better than no driver!
I don't know, I have low confidence that I'll continue to have good results after updating.

I half wonder if there's a buried bug in my configuration that's biasing our set up too far toward false negatives (the opposite of phantom braking, not stopping when it should).

Either way, I'm happy on 36.6, and I'll stay here as long as possible.

Going on another road trip this weekend, Spokane to Seattle and back, should be really challenging for AP, we'll see how it goes.

(I don't think anyone solves FSD in 15 years, TBH. I just want a solid AP/TACC).
 
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I'm currently driving across Canada in light winter conditions and have had to fight with cruise control a lot more than I'd like.

When you activate cruise control you are also engaging Autopilot even if you don't have the Full Self Driving package. And because Autopilot depends on the car's cameras, the wipers are necessarily under the car's control. So what happens if your windshield is smeared with gunk from other vehicles? What happens is your wipers go hyperactive and cannot be stopped or slowed unless you disengage cruise control (Autopilot). You can blast wiper fluid, sure, but that only goes so far when there's a stream of oncoming trucks and the smears are sticky. At every stop I've wiped down the forward cameras but it isn't long before the windshield is smeared again and the wipers invoke Apeshit Mode.

Secondly, there's the well documented phantom braking issue. In my case I'm not comfortable using cruise control if there's anyone behind me because the car may suddenly panic brake. So this is a second instance where I often feel compelled to disengage cruise control/Autopilot.

I love my Model Y, don't be me wrong, but driving 4400 km would be a lot less painful with properly functional (and safe!) cruise control. It's a little shameful that a car costing $80,000 CAD can't handle basic cruise control when other, cheaper vehicles do it without skipping a beat. A simple solution would be to offer old-fashioned dumb cruise control where you set an adjustable speed and the system doesn't depend on camera visibility and a capricious neural net to get the job done. Or, perhaps — just maybe — removing radar has had some predictable consequences?

Bottom line: If the car can't handle basic cruise control, how can anyone expect the vehicle to drive itself safely anytime soon?
Tesla's decision to disable radar on existing vehicles and remove it from new one's was one of the worst decisions they could make. That's the sole reason for why the traffic-aware cruise control is now trash. A vehicle from the 80's would have better cruise control than what's available on today's Teslas. This problem will only solve once Tesla brings back radar to autopilot.
 
Despite my 2018 M3 LR RWD having downloaded seven software updates since I installed v2022.20.8, I’ve installed none of them and remain on v2022.20.8, supposedly the last version to NOT disable my radar, NOT lower autopilot speeds by 5mph, NOT eliminate the “1” following distance, and NOT make auto wipers and high beams mandatory on my EAP/FSD-equipped car. I’m very pleased with how the car operates, and can forego the, to me, immaterial enhancements in subsequent releases.
 
Tesla's decision to disable radar on existing vehicles and remove it from new one's was one of the worst decisions they could make. That's the sole reason for why the traffic-aware cruise control is now trash. A vehicle from the 80's would have better cruise control than what's available on today's Teslas. This problem will only solve once Tesla brings back radar to autopilot.
Neither of my two 2022 M3LR have any issues detecting and reacting with only vision.
 
Autosteer actually works pretty well in my experience, and if you encounter a situation that makes you nervous, you can always disable it. Never using it because you might get into a bad situation seems overly cautious.
This just goes to show how Tesla is losing the faith and confidence of previously staunch believers. They are acting in ways that hurt the customer relationship. They’ve got to care more about the customer experience than cost cutting or any other internal-facing issue alone. Do right by the customer, do not make things worse for them in the name of progress for science or supply chain efficiency or any other BS. Without a happy customer base that feels confident in your products, you will easily get to a point where you do not need to worry about any of the production problems as every day will be a bad day at that time.
 
Yeah, @enemji, it’s the same for me — I don’t have FSD and just use TACC. What I’ve noticed is the car behaves almost flawlessly in some cases — crossing through Northern Ontario in bad weather, say. But in other areas, like traversing the Prairies where it’s very flat and straight (often with sun and mirages), I can get so many hard braking events that it’s best to just switch TACC off. So I suspect both camps are correct — it can be both excellent and awful — and some areas are just more prone to phantom events than others.
 
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Yeah, @enemji, it’s the same for me — I don’t have FSD and just use TACC. What I’ve noticed is the car behaves almost flawlessly in some cases — crossing through Northern Ontario in bad weather, say. But in other areas, like traversing the Prairies where it’s very flat and straight (often with sun and mirages), I can get so many hard braking events that it’s best to just switch TACC off. So I suspect both camps are correct — it can be both excellent and awful — and some areas are just more prone to phantom events than others.
You're absolutely right about the situations where it happens. However, this didn't happen when radar was used. So we've basically lost functionality. That too in situations where autopilot is most needed - roadtrips outside the city.
 
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Despite my 2018 M3 LR RWD having downloaded seven software updates since I installed v2022.20.8, I’ve installed none of them and remain on v2022.20.8, supposedly the last version to NOT disable my radar, NOT lower autopilot speeds by 5mph, NOT eliminate the “1” following distance, and NOT make auto wipers and high beams mandatory on my EAP/FSD-equipped car. I’m very pleased with how the car operates, and can forego the, to me, immaterial enhancements in subsequent releases.
Wise choice - I am jealous. I wish I had never updated my software. I've lost all the great functionality of autopilot in a single update.
 
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They’ve got to care more about the customer experience than cost cutting or any other internal-facing issue alone. Do right by the customer, do not make things worse for them in the name of progress for science or supply chain efficiency or any other BS.
Yeah, that ship sailed about five years after Tom Peters’ hugely successful tome “In Search of Excellence” in which he espoused the customer is truly king. Today, not so much. It is all about delivering that which is just good enough to not piss off more than a given chunk of the customer base, and that chunk has gotten larger with time. My favorite example: the delightful customer experience flying coach on an overseas flight. For that matter, even flying business class overseas is no longer the experience it once was not that long ago. And with a few exceptions, first class has all but disappeared. Need more examples? Could be a new thread.
 
If you're driving mostly in the city, you won't have this issue. This typically happens when: 1) No cars in front of you, and 2) Direct Sun. Go on a roadtrip outside the city and see if you feel the same way.
What do you know. Even before owning a Tesla, I made sure my commute does not get that sun in the eye situation. Traffic is terrible on those roads especially rush hours due to the ☀️ making everyone blind. So fortunately because of my past decisions, I have yet to experience that situation on my Tesla.
 

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