Anyone else tired of the "anti" selling of M3?

[dhanson865]

Damn! I've never had a supermodel ask me for a ride in my Roadster. One young girl (the daughter of a friend) got a ride at the request of her dad, and all the others who've asked for rides have been guys. If I was gay the Roadster might have gotten me something that way, but my experience is that the whole idea of cars as "chick magnets" is a bunch of hooey. Well, supermodels are too skinny anyway, so there's that.

On another topic, another bunch of hooey is the idea that Tesla is removing features from the Model 3 to anti-sell it against the Model S. They're selling the car for half the price, people. They cannot put $70,000 worth of features into a car they're selling for $35,000! They're doing what they have to do to get the car down to that price.

Three parts I'd give two ratings to:

1. chick magnet, agree "informative", Gotta be some shallow girls out there that like cars, just not as many as needed to satisfy all the guys that wish that buying a car is all they had to do to get their dream woman.

2. supermodels, disagree (90% of the VS runway models I'd put in my wouldn't kick out of bed for eating crackers list). I do agree that there is a sub category of runway models that are too thin (either anorexic or can be confused for such) but I don't consider the aneorexic models "supermodels".

3. decontenting model 3, agree "informative"

but on decontenting it's the spin that gets people going. We know decontenting in the absolute literal sense needs to happen to hit a price point, most of us even understand the spin needs to happen, we just want to get past the Osbourne effect period so we can enjoy full details.

 

[stopcrazypp]

There's another angle to the anti-selling. Previously before Elon's rude awakening, there were too many people who literally think of the car is a mini-Model S (basically all the features for half the price, just in a smaller size). That's setting up the car to be a huge disappointment after the unveiling.

With the current anti-selling, it's lowering the expectations. There's been criticism before that Tesla had too much overpromising and underdelivering, but maybe they will flip it this time.

 

[frozenpenguin]

Don't forget the goal posts can move on $35k. Sure they promised a 35k starting price, Tesla never said what that includes, i think you will find many standard features from other companies are going to be options and some will be flat out missing at launch, this with the sparse interior will put Tesla's brand "Electric so it's better" to the test.

Tesla needs to make the model s and 3 better not rely on its dominate position in EVs and call it a day. Good news is they got a great lead and some time before traditional car manufacturers catch up.

I distinctly remember Elon saying that "you won't be able to buy a better car even with no options for $35K"

 

[Runt8]

I distinctly remember Elon saying that "you won't be able to buy a better car even with no options for $35K"

While I tend to think this is true, a large part of "better" is "electric." I think of pretty much any ICE car as worse regardless of the available amenities. And I certainly don't see any better BEV in the near future available for $35k.

 

[Big-T]

While I tend to think this is true, a large part of "better" is "electric." I think of pretty much any ICE car as worse regardless of the available amenities. And I certainly don't see any better BEV in the near future available for $35k.

I"m sure I'll get my share of down votes, but frankly the statement that any ICE car is worse simply because it's ICE is not shared by the majority of the world, or probably even by a decent percentage in this forum. There are plenty of amazing ICE cars out there, and people are buying them in droves. In fact folks are buying ICE cars to the tune of over 80 million last year, compared to a few hundred thousand electrics.

Aside from who's opinion is right. Elon was very clear in his original reveal that you will not be able to buy a better CAR for 35k even with no options (17:38 into the presentation). Not that it was the best electric for 35k. I think all of us are hoping, despite all the anti-selling, despite the sparse interior, and despite the announced lack of options that he sticks to this statement.

 

[AceSkywalker]

I don't have a Model 3 reservation. I'm gonna wait until there's several hundred thousand on the road, accumulating millions of miles, and issues arise and are fixed.

That being said, I'm not the biggest fan of the recent revelations about the Model 3. I'm reserving my judgement, but I'm starting to think that the Model 3 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C Class, Lexus IS, etc. It won't be as luxurious or have the fit and finish that the entry-level luxury German & Japanese compact sedans have. I'm more inclined to believe that the Model 3 is competing with higher trim Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas (with the additional EV cost added).

 

[Runt8]

I"m sure I'll get my share of down votes, but frankly the statement that any ICE car is worse simply because it's ICE is not shared by the majority of the world, or probably even by a decent percentage in this forum. There are plenty of amazing ICE cars out there, and people are buying them in droves. In fact folks are buying ICE cars to the tune of over 80 million last year, compared to a few hundred thousand electrics.

Aside from who's opinion is right. Elon was very clear in his original reveal that you will not be able to buy a better CAR for 35k even with no options (17:38 into the presentation). Not that it was the best electric for 35k. I think all of us are hoping, despite all the anti-selling, despite the sparse interior, and despite the announced lack of options that he sticks to this statement.

I didn't say everyone would think that way. But I'd be willing to bet that Elon does. "Better car" is an opinion no matter how you look at it.

 

[daniel]

I"m sure I'll get my share of down votes, but frankly the statement that any ICE car is worse simply because it's ICE is not shared by the majority of the world, or probably even by a decent percentage in this forum. There are plenty of amazing ICE cars out there, and people are buying them in droves. In fact folks are buying ICE cars to the tune of over 80 million last year, compared to a few hundred thousand electrics.

Aside from who's opinion is right. Elon was very clear in his original reveal that you will not be able to buy a better CAR for 35k even with no options (17:38 into the presentation). Not that it was the best electric for 35k. I think all of us are hoping, despite all the anti-selling, despite the sparse interior, and despite the announced lack of options that he sticks to this statement.

As Runt8 points out, "better" is a judgement, and therefore a matter of opinion. So, no, the majority of drivers do not consider electric to be better. They're concerned with things like looks, comfort, features, price, and for some, cost of operation or lifetime cost of ownership, though few really think about that last one.

Objectively, my Zap Xebra was probably the worst P.O.S. ever to be sold in North America for the purposes of transportation, but I absolutely loved it, just because it was electric.

... I'm starting to think that the Model 3 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C Class, Lexus IS, etc. It won't be as luxurious or have the fit and finish that the entry-level luxury German & Japanese compact sedans have. I'm more inclined to believe that the Model 3 is competing with higher trim Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas (with the additional EV cost added).

I disagree. The Tesla cars (all of them) are competing with gasoline and diesel cars as a class, not with any single segment of the ICE market. People are coming from the high-end German luxury cars to Tesla. People are coming from the sensible Japanese cars to Tesla. People are coming from sports cars to Tesla. Tesla is too new to have a wide enough selection of cars to really satisfy all types, and yet people who would prefer all those different types are coming to Tesla. Why? Because for a small segment of the driving public, the quiet, clean, carbon-neutral, torque monster that is the electric motor is more important than power trunk doors or 25-way adjustable seats or a television for the kids in the back seat.

A proper comparison with other cars has to start by adjusting for the cost of that electric powertrain, understanding that the car will only appeal to people who value the electric powertrain enough to pay the very significant cost of it. And Elon wants buyers to understand that the Model 3 will not have the golly-gee features of a $35K ICE car. It will have solid build quality and a 5-star safety rating in every category and (for those who value all the many benefits of an electric drivetrain) will be the best car for the price. If you don't value that drivetrain, you'd be better off buying a Honda or a Toyota for that money. And that's okay, because for the time being, Tesla could not meet the demand if everyone preferred electric.

 

[SageBrush]

I"m sure I'll get my share of down votes, but frankly the statement that any ICE car is worse simply because it's ICE is not shared by the majority of the world, or probably even by a decent percentage in this forum.

Perhaps, but Musk was giving his opinion, not channeling your estimate of the world at large.

 

[Sonny Daze]

Not sure if this updated comparison is less anti-selling or more anti-selling.

 

[SageBrush]

A proper comparison with other cars has to start by adjusting for the cost of that electric powertrain, understanding that the car will only appeal to people who value the electric powertrain enough to pay the very significant cost of it. And Elon wants buyers to understand that the Model 3 will not have the golly-gee features of a $35K ICE car. It will have solid build quality and a 5-star safety rating in every category and (for those who value all the many benefits of an electric drivetrain) will be the best car for the price. If you don't value that drivetrain, you'd be better off buying a Honda or a Toyota for that money. And that's okay, because for the time being, Tesla could not meet the demand if everyone preferred electric.

My opinion to a tee, but just to be perverse I'll mention that Elon has said many times that EVs have to successfully compete as cars and not rely on the electric drivetrain per se as a selling point. That is a high bar that Tesla is approaching but has probably not yet reached.

I say probably because each customer values the assortment of features in each car differently. E.g., I value the superCharger network, aerodynamics, a quiet effortless ride, design, and safety very highly and could not care less about cup holders and most electric doo-dads. The Hyundai Ioniq may cater very well to the other side of the consumer spectrum.

 

[JeffK]

Not sure if this updated comparison is less anti-selling or more anti-selling.

Besides the HEPA filter, Coil suspension, and the wheel size, we knew everything else.

The lack of an air suspension option is a bit of a disappointment, but not as much as lack of a HEPA filtration system.

 

[jelloslug]

I don't have a Model 3 reservation. I'm gonna wait until there's several hundred thousand on the road, accumulating millions of miles, and issues arise and are fixed.

That being said, I'm not the biggest fan of the recent revelations about the Model 3. I'm reserving my judgement, but I'm starting to think that the Model 3 is not a competitor to the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C Class, Lexus IS, etc. It won't be as luxurious or have the fit and finish that the entry-level luxury German & Japanese compact sedans have. I'm more inclined to believe that the Model 3 is competing with higher trim Honda Civics and Toyota Corollas (with the additional EV cost added).

Have you been in a base model 3 series? It's nothing more than a basic car with a vinyl interior.

 

[AceSkywalker]

Have you been in a base model 3 series? It's nothing more than a basic car with a vinyl interior.

Yes, but no one drives the fully basic, stripped down 3 series. You'd have to special order it and the dealership will give you a funny look. What I'm looking at cautiously is the option list - will I be able to option a Model 3 to have similar luxuries as its German and Japanese counterparts? If not, a good amount of luxury car buyers (myself included) will take pause. That's the reality - there will be a decent amount of people that will pass if the car doesn't have enough cup holders, for example.

 

[sandpiper]

I refuse to give up hope!

Uh.... I've had a model S for a couple of years. If that's the goal, you might look for a Ferrari or something.

 

[jelloslug]

Yes, but no one drives the fully basic, stripped down 3 series. You'd have to special order it and the dealership will give you a funny look. What I'm looking at cautiously is the option list - will I be able to option a Model 3 to have similar luxuries as its German and Japanese counterparts? If not, a good amount of luxury car buyers (myself included) will take pause. That's the reality - there will be a decent amount of people that will pass if the car doesn't have enough cup holders, for example.

Yea, about that. Every time I took my i3 in I was given a stripped down 320i with nothing more than metallic paint. Most 320i models in the US are stripped down with nothing more than metallic paint or leather seats.

 

[daniel]

... just to be perverse I'll mention that Elon has said many times that EVs have to successfully compete as cars and not rely on the electric drivetrain per se as a selling point. That is a high bar that Tesla is approaching but has probably not yet reached. ...

To reach that point, the economics of batteries vs. gasoline will have to change. And things will inevitably move in that direction: Batteries will continue to become cheaper and lighter, photovoltaic electricity production will continue to become cheaper, and petroleum will eventually get more expensive. Ending government subsidies for gasoline will help also, as will improved pollution laws and limits on carbon release. But as long as the lifetime cost of ownership for a BEV is greater than for an ICE car, ICE cars will be able to have more features for the money.

But it's not necessary for Elon's goal to be reached overnight. As long as there's more demand than production capacity for EVs, we will continue to see adoption at the maximum possible rate.

It's not even desirable for everyone to want an EV tomorrow, since charging infrastructure needs to grow, and can do so only at limited speed. We need more highway charging infrastructure, more destination charging infrastructure, and infrastructure for charging for people who don't have a garage. All these things, as well as the grid to support it, will grow organically in concert with the production capacity and the demand, which in turn will grow as the economics move in favor of electric.

The demand for the Model 3 is already too big. If Tesla had not promised a $35K entry point, they could sell the base Model 3 for $40K or maybe even $45K and still sell every car they can build for the next year or two. So they're doing something right as regards the features, compared to gasoline cars.

 

[Runt8]

But as long as the lifetime cost of ownership for a BEV is greater than for an ICE car, ICE cars will be able to have more features for the money.

Why is the lifetime cost of ownership higher for BEVs? I expect to save over $100 a month in gas, and maintenance should be reduced as well (no complicated transmissions, oil, etc that ICE cars have). Am I missing something?

 

[jelloslug]

Why is the lifetime cost of ownership higher for BEVs? I expect to save over $100 a month in gas, and maintenance should be reduced as well (no complicated transmissions, oil, etc that ICE cars have). Am I missing something?

Don't you know? You have to replace the $30,000 battery ever three years.

 

[SageBrush]

Why is the lifetime cost of ownership higher for BEVs?

I don't know that it is, but then we don't really know long term reliability of EVs or depreciation.

In any case, mainstream America appears for now to only look at purchase price. I've always said it is because arithmetic is an increasingly rare talent in the US, but the less cynical side of me admits to the rationality of discounting future uncertainty.

So Daniel's point can be viewed as price parity when battery+inverter = ICE+transmission
If streamlined assembly is possible in a Tesla not available to ICE cars, that may tip the scale but it is beyond my ability to estimate.