anyone familiar with the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act?

[crackers8199]

i had my FM tuner replaced by service today, and there's a note on the invoice that if the problem happens again i will have to pay to have it fixed because of my portable XM Onyx unit.

Customer has aftermarket XM radio wired inside center console. If issue occurs again it will fall under customer pay as modifications were made to system.

seems to me this is a BS response, considering the issues with the FM tuner are well document both on this forum and elsewhere on the internet...and it's clearly not my portable XM unit that caused any issues (not to mention i had seen the issues before ever installing XM). people use antenna adapters to wire the XM FM direct adapter into cars all around the world of many different manufacturers without any issues, all it's doing is inserting the XM signal in on an FM frequency and cutting out the regular FM frequency. there's no reason that should be causing any issues with anything in the car. i had disconnected the adapters before taking the car in for service, so i'm not sure how they even can say i had ever modified anything to begin with.

my understanding of magnuson-moss is that they can't void the warranty unless they can prove that your modifications caused the issue, which in this case i think it's pretty clear they did not. i'm trying to get my ducks in a row to be prepared in case this happens again and i have to take it back to have them replace the tuner again...anyone have any insight on how to handle this?

 

[Idkorcare]

But you told me you uninstalled it completely after this :wink wink:

id just yank it all out if it messes up again and say it was either removed after this, never in there, play dumb, if it can do wireless do that before bringing it in.

is the power hardwire or just plugged in?

 

[crackers8199]

But you told me you uninstalled it completely after this :wink wink:

id just yank it all out if it messes up again and say it was either removed after this, never in there, play dumb, if it can do wireless do that before bringing it in.

is the power hardwire or just plugged in?

the power is plugged into the center console. the only thing that was hard wired to anything in the car is the FM direct adapter that runs into the FM tuner via antenna adapter...which is necessary here in so cal because it's impossible to find a clear FM station otherwise. that being said, i disconnected it before taking the car in for service...so when they worked on it, there was nothing hard wired to anything.

regardless, there's no way the FM direct adapter caused the issues with the FM tuner, since like i said they've been well documented here and elsewhere. even if they hadn't been, it's not possible for that to have done anything to the tuner since all it does is cut the regular FM signal and insert the XM signal onto whatever frequency you select. if it were frying radios XM would be getting sued left and right...

 

[ry-ballz]

I'd be willing to bet that it is in fact your adapter that is causing the problem, but that's another discussion.

I've sued auto-manufactures a few times, sometimes they settle, some times they've taken it to court. With civil court, the burden of proof is going to be on you that the issue wasn't caused by your modification. The manufacturers stance is going to be that they have trained technicians and engineering support, and that they determined the issue was your fault. The court will accept that as expert testimony. You'll need to provide evidence to the contrary. Remember in civil court the proof needs to be to the preponderance of the evidence, they don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, only that it's more likely they're right.

There's good and bad news here, some states don't allow lawyers in small claims, check your laws or better yet call an attorney. If attorneys aren't allowed you're going to be on your own, but this means it'll also be cheap for all parties. If attorneys are allowed, the loser is going to pay the winners fees. This can add up to a lot. One of my suits was for a $1200 air conditioning part, when it was all said and done the settlement was north of 5 figures because of attorney's fees.
Some states have very consumer friendly courts, one time I sued a manufacturer who declined to settle, and on the day of trial they showed up with a settlement offer. The judge rejected their offer and found them at fault and used the fact that they tried to settle last second as a sign of bad faith. He then had his clerk go line by line with me over my costs and even included things like the stamp I used to mail the warranty request in. The judge wasn't taking any *sugar* from anybody that day, and I was happy to be on his good side. On the inverse, had I made a mistake in filing or paperwork, I could have just as easily seen myself getting crushed by the judgement.

I don't know specifics about Tesla, but from what I've heard they are very aggressive at defending themselves and have an unofficial never settle take everything to court policy.

 

[crackers8199]

I'd be willing to bet that it is in fact your adapter that is causing the problem, but that's another discussion.

how can this be possible? given that 1) as i've said, there are numerous reports of this issue with the FM tuner on multiple tesla forums, 2) i had the issue before i had even installed XM, and 3) the adapter causes no issues with any other cars (or they wouldn't be selling it to begin with)...

literally all it's doing is cutting the FM antenna and inserting the XM signal. how could that do anything to the tuner other than tell it to play what's coming from the XM instead of what's coming from the antenna?

that being said: there was no way they could have known i had even ever hooked it up, i disconnected it all prior to taking it in. it seems they're making this claim based on simply having a portable XM unit in the car.

 

[ry-ballz]

how can this be possible? given that 1) as i've said, there are numerous reports of this issue with the FM tuner on multiple tesla forums, 2) i had the issue before i had even installed XM, and 3) the adapter causes no issues with any other cars (or they wouldn't be selling it to begin with)...

literally all it's doing is cutting the FM antenna and inserting the XM signal. how could that do anything to the tuner other than tell it to play what's coming from the XM instead of what's coming from the antenna?

that being said: there was no way they could have known i had even ever hooked it up, i disconnected it all prior to taking it in. it seems they're making this claim based on simply having a portable XM unit in the car.

Like I said, that's another discussion from this thread. I would imagine that Tesla is going to say something along the line of "the customer installed an aftermarket modification that sent an electrical signal directly into the failed part. This aftermarket part was operating at a voltage or frequency that is different than the OEM part was designed and tested for, and thus caused or accelerated it's failure. We've brought along the 200 pages of engineering information on how this specific part was designed, if the court would like further information, we also have the technician from the service center here, as well as statements from Tesla engineering."

If you take this to court, you should A) retain an attorney B) plan to have an answer that's better than 'some other people on the internet said the same thing happened to them'

 

[crackers8199]

Like I said, that's another discussion from this thread. I would imagine that Tesla is going to say something along the line of "the customer installed an aftermarket modification that sent an electrical signal directly into the failed part. This aftermarket part was operating at a voltage or frequency that is different than the OEM part was designed and tested for, and thus caused or accelerated it's failure."

it really isn't another discussion though, it's completely relevant to this particular question. this question is about the warranty on the FM tuner and how it relates to installing the FM direct adapter. if there's a particular reason you think that the radio in the model 3 is materially different from the hundreds of other radio tuners on the planet that have the FM direct adapter installed, it's entirely relevant to this discussion because it could help someone not find themselves in a bad spot warranty-wise.

If you take this to court, you should A) retain an attorney B) plan to have an answer that's better than 'some other people on the internet said the same thing happened to them'

and yes, obviously i wouldn't go to court just saying that...my question was more along the lines of am i understanding the act correctly (in that they have to prove my modification caused the issue in order to void the warranty)?

this leads to two other questions / points though:

1) without the antenna adapter being connected (and not even in the car) at the time, they have no way of knowing that i had ever hooked it up that way to begin with. they seem to be making the claim simply based on there being an XM unit in the car, which is obvious BS.

and 2) if it was in fact the antenna adapter that was causing the issue, why would they replace it under warranty this time? they didn't replace it as goodwill, it says right on the invoice that it was replaced under warranty.

 

[Zer0t]

i had my FM tuner replaced by service today, and there's a note on the invoice that if the problem happens again i will have to pay to have it fixed because of my portable XM Onyx unit.



seems to me this is a BS response, considering the issues with the FM tuner are well document both on this forum and elsewhere on the internet...and it's clearly not my portable XM unit that caused any issues (not to mention i had seen the issues before ever installing XM). people use antenna adapters to wire the XM FM direct adapter into cars all around the world of many different manufacturers without any issues, all it's doing is inserting the XM signal in on an FM frequency and cutting out the regular FM frequency. there's no reason that should be causing any issues with anything in the car. i had disconnected the adapters before taking the car in for service, so i'm not sure how they even can say i had ever modified anything to begin with.

my understanding of magnuson-moss is that they can't void the warranty unless they can prove that your modifications caused the issue, which in this case i think it's pretty clear they did not. i'm trying to get my ducks in a row to be prepared in case this happens again and i have to take it back to have them replace the tuner again...anyone have any insight on how to handle this?

why not just stream XM from your mobile phone? That’s what I do.

 

[jjrandorin]

People like to trott out that act when discussing modifications they make to their cars, but I believe it works the way @ry-balls states it does. As a matter of fact, since he states he has direct experience with pursuing these types of things, I would consider his response to be one that we should pay attention to.

In general, they cant deny a claim for your seats, or your engine, because you installed an FM tuner, but they absolutely can deny a warranty claim for anything FM related if you do anything that changes anything related to the FM radio, including cutting anything in.

That act is to prevent a manufacturer from denying a claim on an engine because someone modified a non related part (as an example). If you modify anything related to the part that has issues, that act does not apply as far as protection. If someone puts a boost on an engine, and the engine fails, its not up to the manufacturer to prove the boost caused the engine to fail ( for example).

 

[1.21GW]

If you have an XM tuner hardwired into your FM tuner, then the FM tuner fails. You will lose in court.

Whether it actually caused the issue or not, it would be hard to refute. Plus, this is the first time I have heard of a Tesla FM tuner failing (Disclaimer - there could be many, I just have not heard of them)

Tesla has warranty data. If yours is the only failure of an FM tuner and also has an XM tuner attached... the story looks even worse for you. (Especially if you have 2 failures per your fear) Now, if you have evidence that many FM tuners are failing, then that would help you.

In the end, if it is the FM tuner that had a warranty issue, you are very unlikely to experience it again with the new FM tuner.

 

[CyberGus]

I've sued auto-manufactures a few times

I think you’ve been watching too much “Matlock”

 

[Sam1]

Why is no one asking the question...

XM is still a thing? And, why would anyone use it?

 

[crackers8199]

If you have an XM tuner hardwired into your FM tuner, then the FM tuner fails. You will lose in court.

Whether it actually caused the issue or not, it would be hard to refute. Plus, this is the first time I have heard of a Tesla FM tuner failing (Disclaimer - there could be many, I just have not heard of them)

Tesla has warranty data. If yours is the only failure of an FM tuner and also has an XM tuner attached... the story looks even worse for you. (Especially if you have 2 failures per your fear) Now, if you have evidence that many FM tuners are failing, then that would help you.

In the end, if it is the FM tuner that had a warranty issue, you are very unlikely to experience it again with the new FM tuner.

There are plenty. Here's one thread on it (there are many more but I'm on my phone and don't have time to link them all, a simple Google search for model 3 FM issues will find them though):

FM radio stopped working

 

[crackers8199]

why not just stream XM from your mobile phone? That’s what I do.

How well does that work with no cell signal?

 

[ry-ballz]

it really isn't another discussion though, it's completely relevant to this particular question. this question is about the warranty on the FM tuner and how it relates to installing the FM direct adapter. if there's a particular reason you think that the radio in the model 3 is materially different from the hundreds of other radio tuners on the planet that have the FM direct adapter installed, it's entirely relevant to this discussion because it could help someone not find themselves in a bad spot warranty-wise.

I would plan on bringing an expert with you if you plan on arguing that point, because Tesla will.
I don't know enough about the subject to say for sure, you'll want to contact someone with experience about that.
As far as what the judge will look for it's going to be 'this guy installed something that messes with the radio, the radio failed, the company says it's related, the guy says it's not' He or She will make a judgement on what the think is the most likely cause.

and yes, obviously i wouldn't go to court just saying that...my question was more along the lines of am i understanding the act correctly (in that they have to prove my modification caused the issue in order to void the warranty)?

You should retain an attorney for legal advice. In a civil suit the burden of proof will be on whomever is suing the other party. In this case Tesla has no obligation to prove why they denied the warranty claim, it will be up to you to prove to a preponderance of the evidence that they were wrong.
I won a suit where a company declined a differential replacement because the customer didn't save oil change receipts. They made the argument that maintenance on the vehicle wasn't done, so that's why the part failed. The differential had a service recommendation of like 60k miles, and the car only had 30 on it. So there was no required maintenance up to that point.
It was still on me to show to the court how that even if the engine oil was never changed, the differential wouldn't be effected. I had to hire a 3rd party technician to testify that there's no way possible an unmaintained engine could cause a differential to fail.

 

[crackers8199]

It was still on me to show to the court how that even if the engine oil was never changed, the differential wouldn't be effected. I had to hire a 3rd party technician to testify that there's no way possible an unmaintained engine could cause a differential to fail.

That seems to indicate the burden is on us to prove that the mod did not cause failure. I thought it was the other way around. Thank you for this, that's what I was trying to get an answer to...

I don't know enough about the subject to say for sure, you'll want to contact someone with experience about that.

Ok, so you don't have any specific knowledge on it...you just think it did. That's why I said it's a relevant question for this post... I thought you were saying you had specific info that would lead you to say the antenna adapter caused the failure.

 

[ry-ballz]

That seems to indicate the burden is on us to prove that the mod did not cause failure. I thought it was the other way around. Thank you for this, that's what I was trying to get an answer to...


Ok, so you don't have any specific knowledge on it...you just think it did. That's why I said it's a relevant question for this post... I thought you were saying you had specific info that would lead you to say the antenna adapter caused the failure.

In civil court they don't have to prove anything, it'll be up to you to prove they're wrong.

I don't know anything about Tesla's infotainment stuff, and I suspect not many people do. I do know that from an outside prospective if someone installs something that directly messes with something else, it's not a logical leap to think a failure in that OEM part is related.

 

[crackers8199]

People like to trott out that act

I'm not trying to trot out any sort of act...there have been many instances of the FM tuner having issues, similar to what I had the tuner replaced for and similar to what I experienced before even installing xm. I'm not just pulling that out of thin air or making it up. The only reason i even bothered to get it fixed is because after installing xm it was more noticeable since I was using FM more often (prior to that I was either streaming from my phone or from the car's built in streaming)...

 

[Knightshade]

Unless he opted out of the arbitration clause within 30 days of purchase of the car, he's not gonna be taking anyone to court anyway.

 

[crackers8199]

Well, this thread has jumped the shark since the Tesla fanboys or xm haters (or both lol) have started disagreeing with all of my posts without giving a reason...so I'm out. I got the answer I needed, which is apparently that I was interpreting the act backwards (it's on us to prove the mod didn't cause failure, not on Tesla to prove that it did).