Anyone have National Grid R-4 Off Peak Charging with Teslas?

[Driver Dave]

So I have two Tesla's charging and between that and a number of computers, I'm qualifying for R-4 Time of Use metering:
National Grid - Time of Use

Which I thought was good, but then after trying for weeks to find someone there who knew what R-4 time of use metering at National Grid was, I'm getting back this:

National Grid Customer Service -----------------

What is the rating of the batteries in your cars in kW?

The standard rate for the distribution charge is a little over 6 cents per kWh. Ont the R4 rate the On Peak Distribution Charge is 14.859 cents per kWh and the Off Peak Distribution Charge is 4.328 cents per kWh. So your on peak distribution cost more than doubles (about 8 cents per kWh more) and the off peak distribution cost is only about 2 cents less. So for every kWh used on peak to get any savings you need to use about 4 kWh off peak to break even and more than that to get any savings.
If you do change to the R4 rate it will take us some time to get the meter as we have to special order them and you have to be on the rate a minimum of 1 year.

National Grid Customer Service -----------------

Which kind of seems to be saying "Yeah, we'll let you access cheaper off peak electricity, but then we are going to increase your on peak electricity charges... because...because we say so."

Yeah, doesn't make sense. Unless they did a deal with regulators saying "We'll give citizens access to cheaper off peak electricity. (But we'll up their on peak costs! ha ha ha ha ha!!!)"

So my question is:

* Has anyone hooked up National Grid R-4 Time Of Use to Tesla Charging?
* Was it worth it?
* What's the deal with National Grid R-4? It doesn't really seem useful unless you only use electricity at night.
* How can we have our states allow citizens charging cars with cheaper off peak electricity, without dinged with an increase on peak.

 

[speedy]

That was the same conclusion I reached when I researched it a while ago. They jack up your day rate and only give a small break on the night rate. Plus you have to consume over 2500 kWh per month average to even qualify for the rate. They are clearly not serious about a real off-peak rate plan...

 

[Driver Dave]

Yep, looks like their Time of Use Off Peak plan is really only for a very narrow specific use case (where a person is only using electricity at night)

I imagine they use this to tell the state they have an Off Peak plan for "This rate is available for all domestic purposes in an individual private dwelling or an individual apartment" but in reality...

They price it so no one can really use it.

If you are a National Grid customer, be sure to mention to them that they need to get with the times and off a sensible off peak rate plan for electric vehicle customers that most states have (even Texas!)

Sad to see my electric company in MA is so behind the times and ignoring Electric Car drivers...

 

[David29]

For comparison --

I have Eversource Time of Use rates for my car charging, in eastern MA (rates vary by region).
The advantage I have is a separate meter for the car charging. So, it is pretty easy for me to use mainly the off-peak charging. the only time I really need peak charging is on a particularly cold or particularly hot day when I need/want to preheat or precool for a trip that starts after the peak period begins.
It looks as if the rate differentials are roughly the same for Eversource and for National Grid. The winter peak rate is 6.6 cents/kwh higher than the residential rate, and the winter offpeak rate is about 5 cents below the residential rate. There is a penalty to use the TOU rate in that the monthly fee is more ($9.99 vs. $6.43 for residential), so you have to use about 71 kWh in off-peak periods just to break even on the higher monthly fee.
In the year that I have had TOU rates, I have saved an average of (only) about 2 cents per kWh compared to what I would have paid with Residential rates. The differential between peak and offpeak increased for 2018, so I hope to save more this year.

And I can see that having normal household loads during the day on the same meter would certainly negate any possible savings from car charging at night.

What is too bad, of course, is that savings is only on the delivery portion of the bill, not the energy portion. (I assume it is the same with national grid, right?) Theoretically, the real savings potential for TOU rates is in the energy portion, because running efficient base-loaded plants at night is much cheaper than running less efficient peaking stations during the day.

 

[David29]

For comparison --

I have Eversource Time of Use rates for my car charging, in eastern MA (rates vary by region).
The advantage I have is a separate meter for the car charging. So, it is pretty easy for me to use mainly the off-peak charging. the only time I really need peak charging is on a particularly cold or particularly hot day when I need/want to preheat or precool for a trip that starts after the peak period begins.
It looks as if the rate differentials are roughly the same for Eversource and for National Grid. The winter peak rate is 6.6 cents/kwh higher than the residential rate, and the winter offpeak rate is about 5 cents below the residential rate. There is a penalty to use the TOU rate in that the monthly fee is more ($9.99 vs. $6.43 for residential), so you have to use about 71 kWh in off-peak periods just to break even on the higher monthly fee.
In the year that I have had TOU rates, I have saved an average of (only) about 2 cents per kWh compared to what I would have paid with Residential rates. The differential between peak and offpeak increased for 2018, so I hope to save more this year.

And I can see that having normal household loads during the day on the same meter would certainly negate any possible savings from car charging at night.

What is too bad, of course, is that savings is only on the delivery portion of the bill, not the energy portion. (I assume it is the same with national grid, right?) Theoretically, the real savings potential for TOU rates is in the energy portion, because running efficient base-loaded plants at night is much cheaper than running less efficient peaking stations during the day.

Amendment -- By coincidence, I got my electric bill today, not too long after writing this post. And in the course of looking into a question on my residence bill, I discovered that Eversource has just dropped the Residential TOU rates that I have been using for my electric vehicle charging! This is unsettling, not least because Eversource has not communicated that fact to me. I assume that I will be forced to go back on normal residential rates and lose the benefit i had had of off-peak rates for charging my car. the change appears to be effective February 1.

Eversource told the DPU that very few people use the TOU rates. I am not surprised, because Eversource does (did) its best to discourage anyone from getting the rate. Eversource did not publicize the rate, it was hard to get information on it if you inquired, and the differential between normal residential and the offpeak rates did not provide a strong enough incentive for most people to use the rate. You needed a special case like mine, with a separate meter for my car charging, to make the rate worthwhile. I saved about 10% compared to the residential rate. Which means I am about to have a 10% increase in my electricity costs, over and above what most customers experienced.

With EV adoption on the rise, and thus more potential for substantial loads to be satisfied at night, Eversource has dropped the TOU rate at

 

[canbonbon]

yes unfortunately, they dropped TOU as of Feb 1st, 2018. According the them DPU is working on creating a new TOU plan which will be implemented in the "coming years" (whatever that means). I happened to discover this as I was filling out forms to have them come and change my meter to a TOU meter. However, they responded back in January that a decision has been made by the state regulators to drop TOU until they come with another plan. So Eversource will not be able to install the requested meter. Here is the full DPU order if you are interested: Department of Public Utilities Announces Final Order for Energy Rates

 

[David29]

yes unfortunately, they dropped TOU as of Feb 1st, 2018. According the them DPU is working on creating a new TOU plan which will be implemented in the "coming years" (whatever that means). I happened to discover this as I was filling out forms to have them come and change my meter to a TOU meter. However, they responded back in January that a decision has been made by the state regulators to drop TOU until they come with another plan. So Eversource will not be able to install the requested meter. Here is the full DPU order if you are interested: Department of Public Utilities Announces Final Order for Energy Rates

There is a newer one, too, in case you are interested. this one sets lower rates because of the federal tax reduction. The adjusted rates apply starting February 1. Oddly enough, the January rate list on the Eversource web site still had the Residential TOU rate. But the February rate sheet does not.

Department of Public Utilities Reduces Utility Rates, Launches Further Investigation

I spent the morning writing a long letter to the Mss. DPU, trying to explain why elimination of TOU rates was a bad idea, especially just as EVs are becoming more popular, yadda yadda. I also tried to show that one reason Eversource could say there was little interest in TOU rates was that Eversource does nothing t promote them and indeed makes it hard to learn about them and to obtain them. I do not expect much if any response form the DPU but I felt better for making the effort.

 

[canbonbon]

Thanks for writing that letter. I would do the same even if (as you say in your post above) nothing comes out of it. As far the reduction is concerned, that is actually *NOT* a new rate that you can pick. Eversource *claims* that the new rates that they are offering now (starting Feb 1st) *already* has that cost reduction built in. I even called them to confirm. Here is the link if you want to read that in detail: Electric Distribution Rate Review | Eastern MA| Eversource

So from what I know there is nothing else to choose from in lieu of TOU. They are gone, until they come back at a future date. Let me know if I missed out anything here.

 

[David29]

Thanks for writing that letter. I would do the same even if (as you say in your post above) nothing comes out of it. As far the reduction is concerned, that is actually *NOT* a new rate that you can pick. Eversource *claims* that the new rates that they are offering now (starting Feb 1st) *already* has that cost reduction built in. I even called them to confirm. Here is the link if you want to read that in detail: Electric Distribution Rate Review | Eastern MA| Eversource

So from what I know there is nothing else to choose from in lieu of TOU. They are gone, until they come back at a future date. Let me know if I missed out anything here.

I agree. One of my complaints in my letter to the DPU is that Eversource has not yet informed me that the rate I had has been eliminated. It will be interesting to see if they do, presumably with the March bill (which will cover no days in which the TOU rate remained in place). (I only know it is gone because of this thread and because I looked at the new rate sheet. They cannot assume that everyone will have done that.)

 

[3mp_kwh]

And in the course of looking into a question on my residence bill, I discovered that Eversource has just dropped the Residential TOU rates that I have been using for my electric vehicle charging! This is unsettling

This is what I was getting at, in my post about TOU. It took effect, on 2/1/18 and I'm also looking at a bill that came today.
MA DPU striking TOU/TVR, adding commercial Demand Charges
The Eversource territory (4006) has wholesale price data that shows a similar pattern to the TOU. In order to offer TOU, a utility needs to split the average rate into peak and off-peak. It can't just give a discount for off-peak, and use the base rate for peak. I ran some numbers, and found that just like TOU, off-peak was lower than base where on-peak was much higher. Peak hours are fewer in number (wknds/holidays=off-peak), which impacts the math.

The biggest problem is getting to the current 12.9 cent (supply only) charge. Once you get past that, TOU's value relies on how steep the ratio of off-peak to peak use needs to be, to even beat that average base rate. That is where I believe TOU's design aims to fail. It's very hard to get past 3:1 off-peak use, in my experience. A "super-peak", or "super off-peak", would work better.

Stay tuned for more blow-back. New bills are just coming in. Mine went up 3-4 cents/KWh (w/o TOU, etc), and Eversource is looking to charge its $129/MWh "wholesale" rate through June. Nationwide, policies to protect revenue could get nasty (already have?).

For the OP, it's impressive you broke above Nat Grid's minimum consumption (2-2.5MWh/month).

Time to part ways with traditional utility business model - CommonWealth Magazine
Utility rate design needs reform - CommonWealth Magazine

 

[canbonbon]

Looks like the TOUs are coming back soon. I just attended a Webinar run by green energy consumers. Eversource person said they are bringing in TOU and other direct rebates or incentives for charging EVs. She said you can look at Connecticut Program that they recently rolled out to see what's coming for MA (which could be more). I interpret that more as TOU + charging incentives.

Here is the link to the Connecticut program: EV Charger Demand Response | Eversource

 

[canbonbon]

Here is the full slide deck as posted by GreenEnergyConsumers.org

https://260434.fs1.hubspotusercontent-na1.net/hubfs/260434/Smart%20Charging%20Webinar%20April%2026%202023%20v4.pdf

National grid already has a program where they can connect to your vehicle and get how much KW it charged. Most manufacturers are on their list except Kia/Hyundai. Not sure why.

Anyway, you can go to their website and read more about what they are dong for EV drivers in MA.

Anna Vanderspek | she/her
Electric Vehicle Program Director
Main Office: 617-397-5199
Green Energy Consumers Alliance
284 Amory St, Boston, MA 02130 | 188 Valley St Suite 221, Providence, RI 02909
www.greenenergyconsumers.org

 

[bjrosen]

I'm on the off peak program. They have two programs, an off peak and a demand program where they can disable your charging during periods of peak loading. You can only be on one or the other, I choose the off peak, seemed like the better deal.

 

[jlv1]

I choose the off peak, seemed like the better deal

That's what I did, too. They still only support 1 car.

Off-Peak Charging Program

The Massachusetts EV Off-Peak Charging Program allows customers to earn rebates with the Charge Smart MA app. Reduce your EV charging by earning an average of $100 annually when you charge your EV during designated off-peak times and getting a $50 enrollment incentive. By charging your EV during...

www.nationalgridus.com

 

[xcrunner41888]

They support 2 cars in one account. I am currently using that.

 

[jlv1]

They support 2 cars in one account. I am currently using that.

They show both of my cars, but they don't give the discount for the one car. Support has been telling me "coming soon" since I signed up in December.

 

[canbonbon]

Eversource gives nothing. Not Two cars, not one car and not even half a car. Just pure nothing.

 

[bjrosen]

Everyone on the National Grid program, check your Charge Smart MA app to see if understands when you are charging from home. All of my home charges were marked as Away from Home, I contacted them via e-mail [email protected] and they fixed the problem. BTW they responded in a few minutes, great service.