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Anyone have time for a newbie question?

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by mikeg561, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. mikeg561

    mikeg561 Member

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    Hi everyone-

    I have just ordered my Tesla 85D!!!! Can not wait for it to arrive.
    I am really digging into the charging research now and planning some trips.

    I need some help with understanding a lot of the posts here.
    Can someone clarify what a L2 charger? What is a chademo charger/adapter?

    Right now, my plan is to have a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed in my garage. Easy to understand and use- the correct adapter comes with the car.
    Seems like the ChAdeMo adapter is a separate item that can be ordered, if needed. Is this what I will need to charge at every public (non Tesla Supercharger) charge location?

    Sorry for sending all of you back to the basics!

    Mike
     
  2. CatB

    CatB Member

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    I think there are some charging FAQs somewhere, but quick answer: j1772 adapter will let you charge at most public chargers (and many require a chargepoint card, even if charging is free). Level 2 means you will get about 17 miles of range per hour of charging. Chademo allows you to charge at Nissan's fastest proprietary charger, which may not be that useful to you. Suggest you pull down PlugShare app and get a feel for where and when you will want to recharge, that will help. And yes, good call on 14/50 in garage :).
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #3 TEG, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015

    Semantical (but annoyingly pedantic) item to get out of the way first:
    The public J1772 sites are "charging stations" (not chargers) as the AC charger is in the car itself.
    CHAdeMO and Tesla Supercharging stations (on the other hand) are DC charging where the charger is external to the car and they feed DC power directly to the battery pack in the car.

    When you say "L2", you are typically talking about 240V (or 208V) AC charging. Either from the 14-50 at your house, or a J1772 plug at a public charging station. At home, one could use a HPWC ("High Power Wall Connector") to get the AC line power to your vehicle so that the on-board charger can convert it to DC and recharge your battery pack. The HPWC can go up to ~80amps which is at least double charge rate compared to what you would normally get from J1772 or 14-50. Since you mentioned that you installed a 14-50 socket, then you probably plan to use the UMC ("Universal Mobile Connector") to go from the NEMA 14-50 socket to the Tesla proprietary charge port on the Model S. On the road, you could use the "J adapter" to connected a public J-plug to your Model S and use the vehicle's charger. Typically those are usually 30amp stations (and the charging station sends a signal to the car telling it how much max current it can pull from the line.) As far as the car is concerned, the experience of charging from a UMC on your home 14-50 is basically the same as getting the same AC current from a public J station. In those cases, you are probably talking about some hours charging to get full again, so it is best for overnight charging or maybe all day while at work type charging. If you want a quick fill-up then you want high speed DC charging, the fastest of which is at a Tesla supercharging station. The big CHAdeMO adapter can get you somewhat slower speed DC charging by letting the Model S battery pack connect to a Japanese standard DC charging station similar to those found at Nissan dealers (since LEAF is the most popular vehicle to feature CHAdeMO ports.) The adapter is a bit bulky/expensive, and not all CHAdeMO spots are Tesla friendly, so I think CHAdeMO charging is really a "plan B" option compared to supercharging. (Besides Supercharging is likely free, and CHAdeMO locations will probably want to charge you $ to charge there.)

    Also, you can take your UMC with you to campgrounds and other locations that have semi-public 14-50 sockets available...
    Also, most Tesla service centers have an HPWC on site so you could talk to them about stopping to charge there if you couldn't find a nearby Supercharger.
     
  4. SteveS0353

    SteveS0353 Member

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    #4 SteveS0353, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on the car purchase! You'll find this forum is quite newbie friendly. Back to basics...

    Power (the product of voltage times current) comes in two forms; AC (alternating current) and DC (direct current). The most common form of power available in the U.S. is AC, ranging in voltage and current, depending on wiring.

    • 120V is available from a common power outlet in your home; and
    • 250V is commonly used for cooktops, ovens, clothes dryers, and other heavy power appliances.
    The Model S is capable of consuming both types of power. The battery in the Model S is a high voltage beast, but it's only capable of consuming and delivering DC. The model S has what is called a charger (or two) installed under the back seat, and it's function is to interface to the charge port where you plug in, and convert AC to DC to charge the battery.

    • A normal power outlet in your home is capable of 15A, so at 120V, is capable of delivering 1.8kW of power. In EV nomenclature, this is Level 1. Plugging a Model S into a regular power outlet (there is an adapter supplied with the car for that too), will give you 3 to 4 miles of range per hour of charging -- pretty slow, but sometimes helpful.
    • The common residential high power circuit at 250V is typically capable of up to 40A, so up to 10kW of power (NEMA 14-50 supplied with the car), will charge the Model S at ~28 miles of range per hour. In EV nomenclature, this is Level 2. The J1772 adapter (also supplied with the car), allows you to charge from a Blink, Chargepoint, and other commercial L2 chargers at various current levels. The Tesla High Power Wall Connector (HPWC) will support up to 80A with the appropriate wiring, and with a dual-charger enabled Model S, will charge ~58 miles per hour of charge. This is the fastest / highest power L2 charger you can install at home.
    • The Tesla Supercharger delivers high voltage (and very high current) DC, presently up to 135kW. When the model S is plugged in to a Supercharger, the on-board chargers are not required to convert AC to DC, and they are bypassed. CHAdeMO is a Japanese standard DC charger of less power than a Tesla Supercharger, but with the CHAdeMO adapter (purchased separately), is capable of charging a Model S at up to 50kW. DC fast charging is often referred to in EV nomenclature as Level 3.
    That's the basics. I highly recommend a really helpful FAQ from FlasherZ (member on this forum) HERE.
     
  5. Mnlevin

    Mnlevin Member

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    You will probably never charge on the street. Your car should be charged every night to 90% so you have almost a full range every day. As far as traveling, living in S Cal from what I know you can go anywhere using the Supercharger system. The Chademo is a waste of money having all those Superchargers all around. I have 2 Teslas and have only charged on the street to validate that I can. Get a Chargepoint card, keep it in the glove box for JUST IN CASE. But you will probably never need to charge the car away from home.
    Congrats and Enjoy
     
  6. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    We always have time for newbies! Welcome aboard. You will never regret it.

    The above explanations are excellent, especially SteveS0353. The only thing I'll add is that you can expect 23-28 MPH of charge from your home 14-50 outlet. Plenty for a full charge overnight. It meets 100% of my daily needs for commute, etc. I have also found that using a level 1 (ugh, normally) when I visit my relatives for the weekend can give me all the juice I need to get back home after a 150 mile drive. Even with modest forays around town when visiting. So it's not all that bad, as long as you can keep her plugged in. But it is certainly is not my first choice. Go for the Superchargers. Fast and you can meet other owners who are almost always willing to chat about their love for the MS. Lastly, if you can't find a SC near you, CA is littered with Level 2's everywhere. Check out Plugshare.com and ChargePoint.com. Sign up so that you are all set.
     
  7. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    Another semantical item to get out of the way:
    Tesla does not have dealers. There are Tesla stores and Tesla service centers, and in states where direct sales are not allowed there are Tesla galleries. We've been conditioned to call the place where you buy a car a dealer or dealership because that had been the only business model for decades. One of the best things about Tesla is stores rather than dealers.
     
  8. Nevek

    Nevek Overt Member

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    #8 Nevek, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
    As a relative newbie myself, I have a story to put two forms of charging in context.

    My charging epiphany came when on a 3500 mile trip from Seattle through Las Vegas, San Diego and Palm Springs just after taking delivery of my 85D. (The best way to get to know a new car is a road trip).

    I decided to charge at a convenient Level 2 charger that would save me a couple of hours of SoCal traffic in getting to and from the infamously crowded San Juan Capistrano CA supercharger on my way to Palm Springs. Sitting in a high school parking lot, watching my projected mileage increase at 14 mph, I suddenly "got" what the Superchargers I had used on the way down were all about.

    When you can get 300+ mph charging and you don't have all night/day, grab it! I disconnected, took the LA traffic penalty, supercharged and got on with my day.
     
  9. mikeg561

    mikeg561 Member

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    Wow wow wow.

    Thank you everyone! Such great information. I now "get it." You all filled in the missing pieces in my Tesla charging education.

    I appreciate such a supportive group and can not wait to share information once I gain first-hand experience.

    Mike
     
  10. LoL Rick

    LoL Rick Like Buttah

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    This stuff gets incredibly confusing, so I have found that it is easiest to compare the charging options in terms of kW. These are approximations but should be close enough for illustrative purposes and are the common stations that I know of in the US.

    110V Household - 1.4 kW
    J1772 @ 30 amp - 6.2 kW
    NEMA 14-50 - 10 kW
    J1772 @ 70 amps - 17 kW *
    Tesla HPWC @ 80 amp - 20 kW *
    CHAdeMO - 25-50 kW +
    Supercharger - 120-135 kW

    * These two require dual chargers to be installed in the car
    + This requires an adapter purchased from Tesla, currently $450
     
  11. tga

    tga Active Member

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    To avoid confusing the new guy - "These two require dual chargers to be installed in the car" really should say "These two require dual chargers to be installed in the car to use the full current".

    If it isn't obvious, you can plug into an 80A J1772 or HPWC even if you only have 1 charger in the car. Your car just won't pull more than 40A with a single charger. The current rating of the charging station is the max you can draw, but the car can pull anything from 0 to the max advertised by the station.

    Also, the J1772 spec goes up to 80, not 70A. ClipperCreek sells an 80A station, the CS-100. The HPWC is just a J1772 EVSE with a custom plug. Electrically, Tesla uses J1772 for AC (L1/L2) charging. The J1772 adapter is just a physical adapter; there's no "smarts" in it (unlike the Chademo).
     
  12. Cyclone

    Cyclone Active Member

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    And to further the clarifications tga mentioned, the above also assumes max voltage. So 110v (or maybe Rick meant 120v) for the first entry, and 240v for the next four. However, at work, I get J1772 @ 30 amp with 200v (not even 208). That cause reduce the amount of power I can get from the charge.
     
  13. davewill

    davewill Member

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    A couple more corrections. CHAdeMO is NOT proprietary, it is a standard used by a number of manufacturers. In the area of charging it is Tesla that has gone proprietary, at least in North America. There are a quite lot of CHAdeMOs installed, but the coverage is spotty. There are more CHAdeMO locations than Supercharger locations, but might be more Supercharger plugs than CHAdeMO plugs since there tends to be only 1 or 2 CHAdeMOs at a location. If they are convenient in your area, or on longer routes you want to travel, then the CHAdeMO adapter could prove very useful.

    The most common J1772 public charging is 30a, but there are public stations as fast as 80a, the same as the HPWC and the max that a Model S can use.
     
  14. roblab

    roblab Active Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong (I know you will :smile:) but in my understanding, Tesla had their charging solution developed BEFORE the other "plugs" were developed. Why SAE and CHAdeMO chose the large format huge plug instead of the sleek, highly efficient and capable Tesla design leaves many of us still shaking our heads. I hear that CHAdeMO will have to redesign to up it's DC fast charging above 50 amp. Really Dumb. While Teslas continue to charge at 135 kW and beyond.

    I would guess, operative word here, that there was some mental competition going on between Tesla and GM and Nissan. Most Old Era auto manufacturers are really not interested in making electric vehicles easy to use or charge. They don't care if a car, such as Toyota's RAV4EV, can only charge at 3.3 amps (not even 7 kW) when Tesla can do 20 times that amount. I can hardly wait for them to go out of business.
     
  15. jbcarioca

    jbcarioca Active Member

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    My only quibble is that the more manufacturers begin to offer competitive EV product the better off we will all be. For whatever reason only tesla has actually stepped up to deliver very fast charging, widespread availability of charging and enough battery capacity to allow us to do trips. If others would to that too we'd all have a better EV driving life. Despite those who detest CHAdeMO I have found it very useful, especially because the nearest Supercharger is 1 1/2 hours from me, while several CHAdeMO are within five-ten minutes from my house.

    I was a Newby two months ago, so I probably still am one. However, I have driven 3000 miles so far in my Model S. The side effect of all those Superchargers and our stupendous cars is that we desperately want to take road trips!:biggrin: The OP will discover that. While we are waiting for more Superchargers insurance is nice. I recommend one of every type of charger, including CHAdeMO, so that you know you'll always be able to plug in whatever you find. I have used CHAdeMO, level 1 (a 110v plug in a hotel garage), various J1772's as well as Superchargers. Within a road trip or two all this nonsense becomes second nature and you'll begin to read Plugshare and CXhargePoint as if it were your native language. That, and you'll discover taht Wazw is a miraculous way to avoid traffic congestion, even if you haven't done so already.

    Being a Tesla newby was the most exciting experience since I learned to fly, a long long time ago. Oddly, I have been an avid pilot, but I'd rather drive my Tesla than I would fly. (I'll admit that here, maybe not so much in an aviation forum.
     
  16. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    #16 brianman, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
    I hope Rick doesn't mind me reformatting his post and editing the footnotes.




































































    Description AC/DC Power (max)! Voltage (max) Amperage (max)
    110V Household AC L1 1.44 kW 120V 12A
    J1772 "Low" AC L2 7.20 kW 240V 30A
    NEMA 14-50 ("RV") AC L2 9.60 kW 240V 40A
    Tesla HPC (Roadster)^ AC L2 16.80 kW* 240V 70A*
    J1772 "High" AC L2 19.20 kW* 240V 80A*
    Tesla HPWC (Model S) AC L2 19.20 kW* 240V 80A*
    CHAdeMO "Limited" (Nissan)+? DC L3 25.00 kW 400V 62.5A
    CHAdeMO "Strong"+ DC L3 50.00 kW 400V 125A
    CHAdeMO "Theoretical"+ DC L3 80.00 kW 400V (500V station) 200A
    Tesla Supercharger DC L3 120.00 kW 400V 300A
    ! For the AC chargers, the amperage and power tend to be steady after the first minute of the session. For the DC chargers, the rate will fluctuate -- typically with a taper (downwards) as the SOC (state of charge) level rises.

    * These rates require dual chargers to be installed in the car (retrofit available for US$2000). The station will charge at a lower rate without them.
    Tesla Gear Shop Dual Charger with Installation

    ^ Charging at these locations requires an adapter (US$650) purchased from Tesla.
    Tesla Gear Shop Roadster High Power Wall Connector to Model S Adapter

    + Charging at these locations requires an adapter (US$450) purchased from Tesla.
    Tesla Gear Shop CHAdeMO Adapter

    ? More info on charge limiting at some Nissan CHAdeMO stations can be found here:
    Nissan manufactured CHAdeMO 25kW limitation


    Can someone confirm the "Amperage (max)" for CHAdeMO "Limited" (Nissan)?


    Edit: Current version is now a wiki @
    Model S Charging - Tesla Motors Club - Enthusiasts & Owners Forum
     
  17. TexasEV

    TexasEV Active Member

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    That may be true, but except for isolated pockets a high percentage of them will either be out of service, located at a Nissan dealer, or both.
     
  18. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Active Member

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    You got the Amps and Volts reversed in the Supercharger row...
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Fixing. Thanks.
     
  20. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    J1772 "High" should really be 80A (I have two of them installed at my office). In fact J1772 "Low" could be 24 amps because I'm aware of some of those too.
     

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