Anyone here anything about $14k rebate going? Tesla salespeople telling me it’s going

[Duckjybe]

All good information, however let's remember, I wasn't blaming electric cars or talking just about ontario . I was just saying when we look, generally at how we're charging the car and the source of the energy, it's not really all that clean. Certainly Ontario is moving along but look across the country and across the border...or if you're brave, have a look in Asia etc. One day we'll see. It's still early.

Still cleaner than gas cars and getting cleaner all the time. Most people don't understand the urgency of the climate change problem. We don't have 20 years or even 10 years. The time is NOW! A meaningful incentive is the only way to light a fire to change behaviour.

The Ontario Cap and trade program will fund the EV subsidies not your neighbour unless he continues to burn fossil fuels and then he deserves to fund EV subsidies. He doesn't have to buy a Tesla to get the $14K rebate and either did you. A Tesla just happens to be the most practical EV at this juncture which many people are stretching to afford.

 

[Duckjybe]

Assuming a pretty typical purchase price of $115k, the sale incurs $9,200 in provincial sales tax. I have no problem them giving this back to the purchaser, but yeah $14k is high at a provincial level.

And to further your point in defence of incentives for Tesla’s, the sale of a $50,000 Volt or Bolt incurs $4,000 in provincial sales tax. So net of sales tax and incentive a purchased Tesla costs the prov. government $4,800 and the Volt costs $10,000. The government and the taxpayer actually get a MUCH better deal on the Tesla in incentive cost and in terms of carbon reduction per dollar spent.

I propose they scrap incentives for lower priced EV’s

 

[sakimano]

Still cleaner than gas cars and getting cleaner all the time. Most people don't understand the urgency of the climate change problem. We don't have 20 years or even 10 years. The time is NOW! A meaningful incentive is the only way to light a fire to change behaviour.

The Ontario Cap and trade program will fund the EV subsidies not your neighbour unless he continues to burn fossil fuels and then he deserves to fund EV subsidies. He doesn't have to buy a Tesla to get the $14K rebate and either did you. A Tesla just happens to be the most practical EV at this juncture which many people are stretching to afford.

So you're agreeing with me then that the energy that powers electric cars is largely not all that clean today. Which is what I said. You clicked disagree, maybe by accident.

And I think most people don't understand economics. Your compartmentalization of funds argument is cute. The provincial government is he hemmorraging cash. Pretending these dollars go there and those dollars go here is funny. When they're borrowing to pay their bills it's all irrelevant.

The fossil fuels will all get used up whether you like it or not. Not everyone or every nation can afford to make a change so the fossil cars will be here for another 50-100 years unfortunately. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand and hoping everyone pays a 40% premium to reduce their greenhouse gases. Try telling that to emerging market countries struggling to pull themselves out of poverty and into the 20th century. Nevermind the 21st.

 

[Duckjybe]

So you're agreeing with me then that the energy that powers electric cars is largely not all that clean today.

When I said “still cleaner than gas cars” I meant even in coal fired electricity jurisdictions. I disagree with the blanket statement that “energy that powers electric cars is not all that clean”. It’s very clean in Ontario and Quebec and many other jurisdictions . I am looking at Gridwatch.ca right now as I charge our cars and the CO2e intensity of 19 g/kWh translates into less than 10 gCO2/km for a Tesla compared to a BMW 5 series at 236 gCO2/km (24 x more). I would say the Tesla is pretty clean!

Even in coal using Kentucky a Tesla Model S100D emits 30% less CO2/mile than a BMW 5 series (see fuel economy.gov). So still cleaner than gas cars by a good amount.

And I think most people don't understand economics. Your compartmentalization of funds argument is cute. The provincial government is he hemmorraging cash. Pretending these dollars go there and those dollars go here is funny. When they're borrowing to pay their bills it's all irrelevant.

I think forward thinkers understand the economics of having cities and entire countries destroyed by extreme weather due to Climate Change (as we saw last fall). Those kinds of societal costs will dwarf any budget downfall the likes of our provincial gov. has.

fossil fuels will all get used up whether you like it or not. Not everyone or every nation can afford to make a change so the fossil cars will be here for another 50-100 years unfortunately. It's not as easy as waving a magic wand and hoping everyone pays a 40% premium to reduce their greenhouse gases. Try telling that to emerging market countries struggling to pull themselves out of poverty and into the 20th century. Nevermind the 21st.

For the sake of my grandchildren and this planet I hope you are wrong. For a Tesla owner you sure seem pessimistic about sustainable energy. If you haven't already, I would suggest reading this very excellent piece about Elon Musk, Tesla, and why fossil fuel has to stay in the ground: How Tesla Will Change The World - Wait But Why

By the way the Ontario Liberal government announced they intend to have a balanced budget this year. We’ll see.

 

[SmartElectric]

The provincial government is he hemmorraging cash. Pretending these dollars go there and those dollars go here is funny. When they're borrowing to pay their bills it's all irrelevant.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/ontario-budget-basics#section-3

Ontario's biggest expenses are related to education, health care and infrastructure like roads and bridges.

Suggest you determine how to evaluate the healthy, professionally cared for and well educated population of Ontario in the context of where your tax money is spent.

Without investments in these areas, Ontario would be more like some of our US neighbors in states where only those with good paying jobs can afford health care for their family, or have opportunities for their kids to have sufficiently good education to lift themselves out of poverty.

Ontario voters chose this path, and while arguments can be made, the policies enacted over the past decade have had pros and cons, but there is no denying that we have cleaner air and improved health care in that time.

I myself did not vote for this government, but I do like many of the environmental outcomes, even if I disagree with the private for-profit based FIT program, a system which disallowed our public OPG entity from bidding on renewable energy.

 

[wayner]

I would say that the probability of EV subsidies still being around a year from now has gone way up given the developments in the Ontario political landscape in the last twenty four hours.

 

[Nikkin]

I would say that the probability of EV subsidies still being around a year from now has gone way up given the developments in the Ontario political landscape in the last twenty four hours.

That's so funny, its the first thing I thought when i saw this news in the morning.

The Ontario Cons once again snatch defeat out of the gaping maw of victory! Unbelievable.

 

[insaini]

I would say that the probability of EV subsidies still being around a year from now has gone way up given the developments in the Ontario political landscape in the last twenty four hours.

the chance of liberals winning even after all this is about 20% .... poll this morning still sees PC as winning ... I don't think the EV subsidies will be around as of 2019

 

[sakimano]

For the sake of my grandchildren and this planet I hope you are wrong. For a Tesla owner you sure seem pessimistic about sustainable energy. If you haven't already, I would suggest reading this very excellent piece about Elon Musk, Tesla, and why fossil fuel has to stay in the ground: How Tesla Will Change The World - Wait But Why

By the way the Ontario Liberal government announced they intend to have a balanced budget this year. We’ll see.

I won't get into the politics. All I will say about these socialist hopes and dreams of taxing the hell out of the wealthy individuals and countries to pay for the world's problems run into the problem Margaret Thatcher reminded us of...and that is that sooner or later, the problem with socialism becomes the fact that you run out of other people's money. It's noble, but not very sustainable.

As for being pessimistic, I'm more realistic. I'll use Chicago as an example for you. Chicago has a ban on guns. Yet Chicago has an incredible gun violence problem. Why? They're banned...shouldn't it be safe? Well no, because the rest of America is full of guns, and guns make their way into Chicago all the time. Despite the best intentions of the ban, it doesn't matter if the rest of the country allows guns all over the place and there's no way to fence Chicago off to keep them out.

In the case of electric cars, there are a few nations who would love to ban fossil fuels and who can move forward with clean energy. But there are many more countries who frankly just don't have the choice and will be forced to use up all the fossil fuels till they're gone. Despite the best intentions of some countries on earth who want to stop using fossil fuels, the pollutants from the poor countries will make their way into the affluent countries' environment...we can't fence off Canada, the UK, the US and France in a big greenhouse and pretend we're protected from fossil fuels because we did the right thing with our policies. China, India and a few other less wealthy countries make up over half the world's population and they're not going to be anywhere near banning fossil fuels.

Also, if you ban fossil fuels...Canada and the USA will be in a lot of financial trouble as we are two of the largest oil producers (and reserve holders) in the world. So as much as we like to be progressive, we're the biggest suppliers of the problem that you think is going to wipe out the planet. Russia is another one...these are powerful entities.

 

[Duckjybe]

I won't get into the politics. All I will say about these socialist hopes and dreams of taxing the hell out of the wealthy individuals and countries to pay for the world's problems run into the problem Margaret Thatcher reminded us of...and that is that sooner or later, the problem with socialism becomes the fact that you run out of other people's money. It's noble, but not very sustainable.

As for being pessimistic, I'm more realistic. I'll use Chicago as an example for you. Chicago has a ban on guns. Yet Chicago has an incredible gun violence problem. Why? They're banned...shouldn't it be safe? Well no, because the rest of America is full of guns, and guns make their way into Chicago all the time. Despite the best intentions of the ban, it doesn't matter if the rest of the country allows guns all over the place and there's no way to fence Chicago off to keep them out.

In the case of electric cars, there are a few nations who would love to ban fossil fuels and who can move forward with clean energy. But there are many more countries who frankly just don't have the choice and will be forced to use up all the fossil fuels till they're gone. Despite the best intentions of some countries on earth who want to stop using fossil fuels, the pollutants from the poor countries will make their way into the affluent countries' environment...we can't fence off Canada, the UK, the US and France in a big greenhouse and pretend we're protected from fossil fuels because we did the right thing with our policies. China, India and a few other less wealthy countries make up over half the world's population and they're not going to be anywhere near banning fossil fuels.

Also, if you ban fossil fuels...Canada and the USA will be in a lot of financial trouble as we are two of the largest oil producers (and reserve holders) in the world. So as much as we like to be progressive, we're the biggest suppliers of the problem that you think is going to wipe out the planet. Russia is another one...these are powerful entities.

All political solutions to tackling climate change are on the table not just socialism. Resisting climate change solutions all in the name of resisting socialism is short sighted. As much as the right wing think tanks would have you believe , climate change action is not a conspiracy to spread socialism. Climate change knows no political affiliation but there is probably no getting around the need for some government intervention. Nobody says climate change solutions are going to be pleasant but sticking our heads in the sand is not a prudent option if you understand the gravity of the problem facing our great grandchildren.

It is because we are an oil producing nation that we should have a moral obligation to act on climate change to offset the damage of the carbon we are extracting. Look at Norway as an example. At the very least we should be decarbonizing the transportation sector and setting examples for the rest of the world all the while building a valuable clean tech industry that can lead is into the new energy economy.

I hope people understand that if we burn all the fossil fuel reserves in the ground that at worst much of this planet will be uninhabitable and the rest will suffer from unprecedented food supply changes. There is a debated range of atmospheric carbon budget concentration at which we cannot go over. Carbon taken from the ground and added to the atmosphere increases total carbon content increasing warming or climate change. The carbon doesn't dissipate. The more each of us in Canada decreases our carbon output the more time we all have before permanent damage is done. And the longer we don't reduce our carbon output the more drastic and costly the necessary changes are going to be to our economy when we approach that critical carbon budget.

We cannot keep saying it is someone else's problem. If we aren't part of the solution then we are part of the problem.

Sorry for my diatribe I have just read a lot about the science of climate change and I think many don't realize what a critical issue it is and that it requires meaningful action right now...if we morally care about our Children.

 

[Vawlkus]

Funny that you say that China won’t stop using fossil fuels, considering they just built a fairly sizable solar farm over a closed coal mine.
I think China is a lot more invested in getting rid of fossil fuels than most people think.

 

[wayner]

Nobody is going to stop using fossil fuels, even if the car fleet goes 100% electric and that is a big if and is going to take a long time. EVs have just hit 1% of sales in Canada so we have a long, long way to go to replace ICE vehicles, never mind other big users of hydrocarbons.

 

[Phillip L]

Nobody is going to stop using fossil fuels, even if the car fleet goes 100% electric and that is a big if and is going to take a long time. EVs have just hit 1% of sales in Canada so we have a long, long way to go to replace ICE vehicles, never mind other big users of hydrocarbons.

But we have to start somewhere. A few years ago it was 0.1% of sales. Before that it was 0.01%. Before that 0%. I have thought for a while now that in a hundred years time people will look back and say what a shame we wasted all that oil and natural gas burning them, when we could have it now to continue making such useful things as plastics, etc

 

[wayner]

But we have to start somewhere. A few years ago it was 0.1% of sales. Before that it was 0.01%. Before that 0%. I have thought for a while now that in a hundred years time people will look back and say what a shame we wasted all that oil and natural gas burning them, when we could have it now to continue making such useful things as plastics, etc

I completely agree, that's why I bought a Tesla, installed solar PV panels on my house and solar pool heating panels as well. In the developed world we have probably reached peak hydrocarbon demand and getting rid of coal and gradually converting the auto fleet to EVs (and improving CAFE) will really help us curb our emissions, but they will not go to zero.

But then there is the Emerging world where demand is still growing quickly. It is hard to tell them that you can't have electricity or cars because of "our" historical CO2 emissions.

 

[Phillip L]

I completely agree, that's why I bought a Tesla, installed solar PV panels on my house and solar pool heating panels as well. In the developed world we have probably reached peak hydrocarbon demand and getting rid of coal and gradually converting the auto fleet to EVs (and improving CAFE) will really help us curb our emissions, but they will not go to zero.

But then there is the Emerging world where demand is still growing quickly. It is hard to tell them that you can't have electricity or cars because of "our" historical CO2 emissions.

Spot on. We can only hope that in the case of developing world we can get the prices down enough that the inherent advantages of ev’s can start to make a difference... like low maintenance, hopefully lower operating costs (keeping in mind the awful state of the grid in some countries at the present time), etc

When you realize that most developing countries are in the part of the globe where solar panels make most sense, maybe the continued drop in solar panel prices might eventually make a big difference.

 

[wayner]

Spot on. We can only hope that in the case of developing world we can get the prices down enough that the inherent advantages of ev’s can start to make a difference... like low maintenance, hopefully lower operating costs (keeping in mind the awful state of the grid in some countries at the present time), etc

And non-carbon energy sources. Going to EVs won't help as much if the electricity is generated primarily from coal, particularly the "brown coal" in places like India. I know that even coal powered EVs are better than gasoline cars, but in places like India these are net new additions - it isn't like you are replacing ICEVs with EVs, you are adding incremental cars to the road so that is a new source of CO2.

 

[sakimano]

I completely agree, that's why I bought a Tesla, installed solar PV panels on my house and solar pool heating panels as well. In the developed world we have probably reached peak hydrocarbon demand and getting rid of coal and gradually converting the auto fleet to EVs (and improving CAFE) will really help us curb our emissions, but they will not go to zero.

But then there is the Emerging world where demand is still growing quickly. It is hard to tell them that you can't have electricity or cars because of "our" historical CO2 emissions.

this is what I was saying above. Telling the have nots what to do because the have countries are doing it won't go so well. They don't have a choice.