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Anyone in Canada have solar panels?

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Yes this is what I was using. The overall costs are (in USD):

720$ Titanium Heat Exchanger -4-5 tons
399$ AC Heat Recovery Valve
800$ Professional Refrigeration mechanic work including 10lb of R-22, breakout is 1/3 parts 2/3 work
variable$ pool tubing, adapters, valve etc..

You can get the two first items from Hotspot, they are located in VA if I recall well. I did the controller work and hookup of the pool, just had the refrigeration work done professionally.

Is there any reason why the above wouldn't work in Canada? Presumably you would have to drain the water out of the exchanger when you winterize the pool.

Here is the attic heat exchange that works on a similar principal, although the web page looks pretty old: http://www.solarattic.com/pools.htm#sthash.8DdCspYh.dpbs

Yes you just need to drain the water like for the rest of the pool, its not that more complicated. Did two winter so far.
 
I don't have a pool... LOL

I've been waiting for my PV panels to arrive... for about three months now. I've been promised the install will begin on Wednesday (next week - I made them specify an actual Wednesday, not a random TBD Wednesday - ha!).

It will only be 5.3 kW (20 - 265 Watt panels) because that's all I can get on my roof on the sunny side... it's a complicated roof line and while it looks nice, isn't exactly optimized for solar! I will be grid tied, but that simply means I'll be net metered as there is no incentive program in BC. Payback is going to be long, but the point of the exercise was to generate at least as much as what my MS consumes on an annual basis. The fancy panel design software says I'll manage to make about 28,000 km of driving annually, which is acceptable to me.

The next steps will be to find a way to measure the REAL power consumed by the car. The inverter system will give me a web interface to watch generation, but given the losses in the charging process, I'll likely install a dedicated meter of some type on the HPWC supply line. I've seen some cheap Chinese units on eBay - I might give one of them a try.

The BC Hydro smart meters program gave me the option to buy a Rainforest device to watch my power consumption. It talks to Bidgely and keeps track of my consumption. (aside: the Rainforest program was apparently brought about to appease those people who thought the smartmeters were screwing them on consumption... but all they do is sniff the data going to BC Hydro - no way to confirm the meter is actually correct! LOL). Bidgely evidently has some algorithms that identify major power consumers in the house, with a little help from the account holder. However, it hasn't allowed me to identify my geothermal unit or HPWC - so far - and I don't think it's advanced enough to sniff the outbound power from the PV array. I'll see I guess... but it would sure be nice to be able to consolidate all the data in one place.
 
The next steps will be to find a way to measure the REAL power consumed by the car. The inverter system will give me a web interface to watch generation, but given the losses in the charging process, I'll likely install a dedicated meter of some type on the HPWC supply line. I've seen some cheap Chinese units on eBay - I might give one of them a try.

This is what I use. This is what I'd probably go with if I had to do it over again.

The BC Hydro smart meters program gave me the option to buy a Rainforest device to watch my power consumption. It talks to Bidgely and keeps track of my consumption. (aside: the Rainforest program was apparently brought about to appease those people who thought the smartmeters were screwing them on consumption... but all they do is sniff the data going to BC Hydro - no way to confirm the meter is actually correct! LOL). Bidgely evidently has some algorithms that identify major power consumers in the house, with a little help from the account holder. However, it hasn't allowed me to identify my geothermal unit or HPWC - so far - and I don't think it's advanced enough to sniff the outbound power from the PV array. I'll see I guess... but it would sure be nice to be able to consolidate all the data in one place.

I did a little work with Bidgely. In fact, they used my EV circuit to try and figure out the signature of EVs since I have meters on both my whole home consumption as well as a dedicated MTU on the EV circuit. The last time I looked at my Bidgely account, it was showing my EV, but they were still saying that the EV capability was in development. I think the state of the art in sniffing out appliance signatures (Bidgely, PlotWatt etc.) is still not quite there yet. But then, I do some weird stuff like turning my water heater completely off during On and Mid-Peak times. When it comes back on, it probably looks like an EV!

I didn't know Rainforest was working with Itron's OpenWay smart metering system. I'd looked into their technology for our Sensus FlexNet systems used in about 1/3 of Ontario.
 
This is what I use. This is what I'd probably go with if I had to do it over again.

Both systems look fairly comprehensive. The trick would be getting hardware into all the locations I'd need it and having all the parts communicate properly. I'd like to measure at a minimum:
  • solar power generated
  • solar power going out to the grid
  • power used by geoexchange HVAC system
  • power used by hot water tank
  • power used by HPWC
  • total power used in the house (of course!)
  • (possibly) electric clothes dryer

It couldn't be done at one panel though. I have a subpanel that I expect will have the solar tied in, located in the mechanical room (HVAC, hot water). It has a breaker for the electric backup element in the geoexchange unit (I'm not sure it's ever been used) and some other miscellaneous circuits. The main panel in the garage has the breakers for the actual geoexchange pumps and blower. Why these circuits don't come from the subpanel in the furnace room I don't know...! My HPWC is fed from the main panel.

The house is newish construction (2001) but wasn't wired with Ethernet cable, so data would have to be transferred wirelessly. It feels like it would be a complicated and expensive system to put together....?

I did a little work with Bidgely. In fact, they used my EV circuit to try and figure out the signature of EVs since I have meters on both my whole home consumption as well as a dedicated MTU on the EV circuit. The last time I looked at my Bidgely account, it was showing my EV, but they were still saying that the EV capability was in development. I think the state of the art in sniffing out appliance signatures (Bidgely, PlotWatt etc.) is still not quite there yet. But then, I do some weird stuff like turning my water heater completely off during On and Mid-Peak times. When it comes back on, it probably looks like an EV!

I didn't know Rainforest was working with Itron's OpenWay smart metering system. I'd looked into their technology for our Sensus FlexNet systems used in about 1/3 of Ontario.
The unit I have is this one. I tried another cloud solution prior to Bidgely but wasn't impressed... everything of use was at an additional cost. Bidgely seemed better so I've stuck with them, but in honesty, haven't really leveraged the data too much as of yet. Without the ability to identify the loads, it's of questionable use.

Interesting that you've worked with them. I sent them a message offering to be a guinea pig for geoexchange and EV testing and heard exactly *nothing* back from them. They seem to have the skeleton of a good system assembled but it needs some TLC to become as useful for everyone as I'd like it to be. I guess that echoes your comment about signatures not being quite there yet.
 
I don't have a pool either; they are rare in Calgary; the nights are too cool would be a never ending battle keeping the water warm.

I have a tiny PV system compared to a lot of the guys out there; just a 3kWh that I had installed mid May. This time of year it does provide more power than the house is using, (don't have the Tesla yet which will likely push consumption MUCH higher).

I would highly recommend going for solar for many reasons; it's also fun to track, here is my public page if anyone wants to poke around feel free.

https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pv/public_systems/pp7a634318?preview=1

The power company, (Enmax), installed free of charge, (excuse the pun), the bi-directional meter which shows how much energy is delivered by the grid, (del) vs how much goes back, (rec). Enmax pays me the going rate for whatever I send back into the grid - unfortunately Calgary doesn't have TOU or anything else fancy that I'm aware of anyway.

Apologies for the ICEs in the picture - they aren't mine !!!

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The house is newish construction (2001) but wasn't wired with Ethernet cable, so data would have to be transferred wirelessly. It feels like it would be a complicated and expensive system to put together....?

The biggest issue I had with the TED is that is uses PLC (powerline carrier) to communicate between the metering unit in the panel and the gateway device that is connected to your internet router. I also have an Insteon-based HA system that also uses PLC (and some wireless) and I was having an awful time with interference. I ended up having to completely isolate the branch circuit between my panel and the router with filters, and inject the TED signal there.

The unit I have is this one. I tried another cloud solution prior to Bidgely but wasn't impressed... everything of use was at an additional cost. Bidgely seemed better so I've stuck with them, but in honesty, haven't really leveraged the data too much as of yet. Without the ability to identify the loads, it's of questionable use.

Interesting that you've worked with them. I sent them a message offering to be a guinea pig for geoexchange and EV testing and heard exactly *nothing* back from them. They seem to have the skeleton of a good system assembled but it needs some TLC to become as useful for everyone as I'd like it to be. I guess that echoes your comment about signatures not being quite there yet.

I was responsible for my utility's smart meter implementation and for our conservation programs, so I had a lot of the vendors reaching out to me. The Bidgely folks came up from California and we met a few times. We were kind of pioneers in the early days with Canada's first deployment of our particular AMI technology (that BC Hydro, based partly on my experience, almost went with) as well as with some innovative conservation programs that relied on devices like the Rainforest module that could interface with smart meter data. We are currently running Canada's first pilot program with NEST thermostats and a custom demand response program. I've also worked with Ontario's regulator and Ministry of Energy on these programs as well.

I actually don't live in the service territory of the utility I work for, so Bidgely interfaced via my TED. One of the sticking points with devices like the Rainforest is that it relies on a separate Zigbee radio in the smart meter. Our regulator initially didn't allow the incremental cost of the Zigbee module to be recovered through rates, so most of our meters don't have it. It then becomes an economic question (i.e. who pays?) around replacing the smart meter with a Zigbee enabled meter and provisioning the energy monitoring solution. Most Ontario utilities ened up going with this device because it has a clip on module that will work with existing meters. I felt it was a bit clunky and wanted a more integrated solution.
 
@Hugh - what rate do you pay for electricity? It looks like the rate in Alberta is about $0.05-$0.07/kWh. That must lead to crappy economics for a solar system in the province. The RoR is pretty good when you can sell your electricity for $0.384/kWh as we can do with MicroFIT in Ontario, but even at Toronto's current peak rate of about $0.21/kWh leads to poor RoRs. That must especially be the case with a smaller system since some of the costs are fixed.

On the plus side you are displacing far more CO2 emissions than in Ontario since Alberta's generating stations are primarily coal and natgas. It is kind of funny but Alberta should be the province with a MicroFIT program rather than Ontario, at least when it comes to reducing CO2 emissions.
 
@Hugh - what rate do you pay for electricity? It looks like the rate in Alberta is about $0.05-$0.07/kWh. That must lead to crappy economics for a solar system in the province. The RoR is pretty good when you can sell your electricity for $0.384/kWh as we can do with MicroFIT in Ontario, but even at Toronto's current peak rate of about $0.21/kWh leads to poor RoRs. That must especially be the case with a smaller system since some of the costs are fixed.

On the plus side you are displacing far more CO2 emissions than in Ontario since Alberta's generating stations are primarily coal and natgas. It is kind of funny but Alberta should be the province with a MicroFIT program rather than Ontario, at least when it comes to reducing CO2 emissions.

you are right the financial implication of going solar doesn't make sense in Calgary, the rate is very low like you've pointed out and ROI will take forever; silver lining is they also back off the admin fees and other BS charges on the hydro portion of the bill so that is good to see. My raison d'etre for the install was pretty much all to be e friendly ;-)

Speaking of Alberta check out this install that they did just before coming to my place - WOW !!

http://www.skyfireenergy.com/solar-...tric-systems/2-mw-solar-farm-bassano-alberta/

2MW-Solar-Farm-Alberta_Main-Photo.png
 
That brings up an interesting point that I have wondered about - how much do economies of scale matter in solar projects? Does it make sense to do a large project, like in Bassano, or should it be distributed and every home have solar panels? I have to think that it is a fair bit cheaper to have a few large projects as the labour is less and the fixed hardware costs, like inverters, can be spread across more generation capacity. Rooftop solar installs in Ontario are roughly $30k for 10kWh. I wonder how much the Bassano system cost?
 
That brings up an interesting point that I have wondered about - how much do economies of scale matter in solar projects? Does it make sense to do a large project, like in Bassano, or should it be distributed and every home have solar panels?

I don't have numbers, but my "gut" says that larger solar farms would have the benefit of economy of scale, and a single connection to the transmission or sub-transmission system seems a lot more practical than thousands of connections at the distribution level. One thing to remember about the electrical distribution system is it was designed for one way power flow and tends to get "skinny" when you're out at the end of a distribution line. Often connection impact assessments won't allow solar to be connected, and that is always a difficult conversation to have. Large solar farms can also employ sun tracking systems to keep the panels aligned with the sun, also increasing efficiency.

I honestly thought we would see more "co-op" type larger projects, kinda like those community gardens, that people could buy in to rather than going it alone on one's own roof.

I see rooftop solar more as a "load displacement" technology not unlike some conservation measure you may take. If you "conserve" 10 kWh in your home or "offset" 10 kWh through rooftop solar, what's the difference? A large farm connected to the transmission system would be a true form of generation, just like any other albeit with its inherent intermittent nature.
 
You're right - if you are just selling the power into the grid then it really doesn't matter if it is on your roof or somewhere else. It is kind of a environmentally friendly investment that you just happened to make. But it does feel more personal to have 10kW of panels on my roof rather than saying that I own 0.5% of a 2MW solar array on the outskirts of town.

But if you move to net metering that changes and also diversifies one's source of power - you can still have power during a blackout, although if your house is large you may not have enough power to drive your whole house and, obviously, that will only help while the sun is up - unless you have batteries. I don't think I could drive my house as my average consumption during July was 198kW/day and on a good day I think I will be able to generate something like 60-70 kWh (I have a very large house and I have a pool, hot tub and two Air Conditioners). And with net metering you don't have the issue that you raised of sending power back to the grid.
 
But if you move to net metering that changes and also diversifies one's source of power - you can still have power during a blackout, although if your house is large you may not have enough power to drive your whole house and, obviously, that will only help while the sun is up - unless you have batteries. I don't think I could drive my house as my average consumption during July was 198kW/day and on a good day I think I will be able to generate something like 60-70 kWh (I have a very large house and I have a pool, hot tub and two Air Conditioners). And with net metering you don't have the issue that you raised of sending power back to the grid.

Net metering does provide for two way power flows, and energy does get pushed back on to the grid. Many folks talk about the grid being their "battery". They generate more than they use during the day while they're out at work, then suck it back in at night. You can have net negative months and net positive months, but over the course of a year, you won't be paid for more than you consume (even if you did generate more than you used). At least the way the rules are now. Because of this, you have to have the same interlocks that disconnect the inverter from the grid in the event of a grid outage. You would have to do some fancy switching or employ batteries to remain self-sufficient in a power outage and most net metered installations I've seen don't have this capability. If microFIT does go away, I can see PowerWall-type systems becoming more prevalent because you can suck up off peak power, then use it during on peak, and if you have solar... even better for charging the battery. Then you have a true backup system in the event of a grid outage.
 
The biggest issue I had with the TED is that is uses PLC (powerline carrier) to communicate between the metering unit in the panel and the gateway device that is connected to your internet router. I also have an Insteon-based HA system that also uses PLC (and some wireless) and I was having an awful time with interference. I ended up having to completely isolate the branch circuit between my panel and the router with filters, and inject the TED signal there.

Duh! I should have dug into the web link further as I'm sure this would have been explained within... it's the logical way to deal with the minimal amount of data flowing. But also a clunky way of doing it as you noted.

I was responsible for my utility's smart meter implementation and for our conservation programs, so I had a lot of the vendors reaching out to me. The Bidgely folks came up from California and we met a few times. We were kind of pioneers in the early days with Canada's first deployment of our particular AMI technology (that BC Hydro, based partly on my experience, almost went with) as well as with some innovative conservation programs that relied on devices like the Rainforest module that could interface with smart meter data. We are currently running Canada's first pilot program with NEST thermostats and a custom demand response program. I've also worked with Ontario's regulator and Ministry of Energy on these programs as well.
The potential complexity of these sort of systems is really open-ended, isn't it! I went into Bidgely again today and I see some (I think) new possible signatures that can be detected. I went through them just now and added the EV (experimental!) and my geo system as 'AC'. I'll be interested to see if they are detected from now.

I'm curious about the level of detail the signatures contain though... I assume they simply look for a bump of an approximate amount of power consumption and look for the nearest number/appliance on the account list? Or is there enough resolution of the power curve to actually watch how a device comes on line? I'm thinking that the EV circuit (for example), ramps up a little as it checks the circuit, then down and back up to full draw. Or so the display in the car suggests. As well, with my geo system, the pumps come on line, blower speeds up... it's not a binary jump. I remember years back talking to some radio guys about how you could - in theory - identify 'repeater chunkers'. The idea was that every radio had a slightly different look to the signal as the transmitter activated and the PLL stabilized and it was a bit of a fingerprint for each radio. In a similar way, if there was enough resolution on the power detection, different appliances could be identified more accurately. I doubt the Rainforest system and smart meter have the ability to poll often enough to do this, but it's an interesting idea. The extrapolation I'm thinking about extends to how you could identify more appliances with better accuracy. A current transformer as the detection source might manage it.

And maybe if I read further into those sites I'd find that this is already in action...

I'm also thinking about how to *neatly* aggregate the data from the smart meter, inverter and perhaps current transformers elsewhere into one data set to work with. But I think it's beyond my limited coding abilities, even though I have enough basic Linux smarts and servers around to handle it in theory... LOL

- - - Updated - - -

you are right the financial implication of going solar doesn't make sense in Calgary, the rate is very low like you've pointed out and ROI will take forever; silver lining is they also back off the admin fees and other BS charges on the hydro portion of the bill so that is good to see. My raison d'etre for the install was pretty much all to be e friendly ;-)
I have a relative in the High River area who has an offer on 80 acres of what I would call 'a field of weeds'. He wants it for his horses (well a good piece of it) and plans to build a small house and barn etc. Natural gas is a distance away and he's been told it'll cost around $10k just to bring it to his frontage. My thought was 'go with a closed loop geo-exchange system instead'. That idea was too green for him because it's your duty as an Albertan to burn natural gas... ;-) So he indicated the electrical costs would be too high. Never one to be outdone, I countered with 'build a solar farm on part of the land'. But hearing him spout off his electrical bill numbers, I got the feeling that although he was paying a dollar figure close to what I'd expect here in BC, his bill was filled with all sorts of charges that weren't entirely consumption-dependent. The cents per kWh were lower than here, but a pile of charges added on.

So my question, since I couldn't analyze the bill closely is, with a net metering system in Alberta, do you just save on the pennies per kWh, or do you also cut into the additional fees?

I'm always into the higher rate level in BC, so the rate I'm working with is about 12 cents a kWh. A long payback for panels. But his numbers were about half of that as I recall - which would make it even more difficult to justify if the other costs didn't drop as well.
 
We installed a 54kW system at our business in St. Albert, AB in November last year using SolarEdge optimizers and inverters. The system over produces in the summer and under produces in the winter to provide close to Net Zero power to the building. In Alberta we are not allowed to produce more electricity than we consume, so the system has to be sized accordingly. The charges for kWh delivered to the grid is the same as received from the grid.
Both kWh consumption (approx $0.070 / kWh ) and distribution charges ( approx $0.055 / kWh ) are adjusted because the kWh received is offset by the solar generation. Although you get a credit off the kWh delivered to the grid at the same rate, you do not get a credit for the distribution charges even though that electricity flows directly to the nearest consumer as mknox mentioned. ( a big benefit to the utility co. - they still charge your neighbor for it and use minimal grid wire)
A big cost unique to a commercial service ( vs residential) in Alberta is the peak demand kW charge ( 20-30% of the bill ). This is where the TESLA Power Wall (when available) can be used to peak shave our peak power demand. We have interlocked our A/C units so they do run at the same time but we also have a 24/7 public Sun Country 90 charge station at our office and usage when the solar is not producing sets the peak demand for the month.

On distributed solar I see 3 benefits:
1) Personal independence ( if grid goes down, transfer switch to isolate from the grid)
2) Equipment redundancy
3) Less cloud cover effect vs at large solar farm

Update:
BTW in SoCal, Edison credits $0.03 / kWh and charges $0.25
 
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Both kWh consumption (approx $0.70 / kWh ) and distribution charges ( approx $0.55 / kWh ) are adjusted because the kWh received is offset by the solar generation. Although you get a credit off the kWh delivered to the grid at the same rate, you do not get a credit for the distribution charges even though that electricity flows directly to the nearest consumer as mk...
Surely you meant $0.070 and $0.055 / kWh?
 
Both kWh consumption (approx $0.070 / kWh ) and distribution charges ( approx $0.055 / kWh ) are adjusted because the kWh received is offset by the solar generation. Although you get a credit off the kWh delivered to the grid at the same rate, you do not get a credit for the distribution charges even though that electricity flows directly to the nearest consumer as mknox mentioned. ( a big benefit to the utility co. - they still charge your neighbor for it and use minimal grid wire)
So if I'm understanding this correctly, solar power you use in your home when the sun is shining saves you 7+5.5 = 12.5 cents per kWh, but any power you export to the grid over and above what you are consuming in the house is benefiting you at the rate of only 7 cents per kWh.

It doesn't make much sense to install solar capacity in excess of that needed to supply your typical daytime base load then, right? It would take the additional panels a very long time to pay for themselves at 7 cents...
 
In Alberta that is correct. However if you want be Net Zero (kWh not cost) the system has to be oversized to compensate for the lack of sunshine and snow cover in the winter.
I calculated that there is a 4-5% ROI so payback is 20-25 years at current energy prices on our system. Still better return than the banks if you have the capital
 
In Alberta that is correct. However if you want be Net Zero (kWh not cost) the system has to be oversized to compensate for the lack of sunshine and snow cover in the winter.
I calculated that there is a 4-5% ROI so payback is 20-25 years at current energy prices on our system. Still better return than the banks if you have the capital
Yeah, I'm looking purely at the economics of working to offset the 12.5 cent power, recognizing that the 7 cents slows/extends your payback time. I'm installing as much as my roof can fit and because of my high-ish power usage, I'll be working in the 12 cent range pretty much every month... so all my savings will be at that rate (in and out are the same price). Not doing the installation myself means the up front cost is higher than a DIY system and I've estimated the break even period is pushing 20 years. That's OK, since my installation is to prove a point and generate enough power to make my car solar-powered. If a purely clinical economic analysis had determined whether to install or not, the answer would likely be 'not'. The rate system in Alberta makes a solar system on my relative's land a tough sell - unfortunately - since it's less economically sound than in BC. He's not... shall we say... 'visionary' enough to do it unless it's going to put real dollars in his pockets today.
 
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