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Anyone thinking about an VW ID.4 Instead?
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El joe
Active Member
No argument here, I almost never get close to advertised range. And again, they have to rely on EA charging (for the free charging, at least), which isn't very reliable. Personally, I'd rather get a used M3 or just spend more and get a MY. But for people looking for an entry-level EV SUV, this is a decent option.
Not a huge fan of Audi going back to the sedans. Every time we priced one of those versus BMW, BMW came out on top. Audi seemed to nickel and dime you to death. So you ended up paying a lot beyond the original price.
And the eTron seems to have very low range (204 EPA) and looks more station wagon than SUV like my X to me. The Jag looks similar and I don't know if they will be around long term.
Do you drive at the EPA speeds? Highway test tops out at 60 mph. I bet if you did driver these speeds would hate it, but you would match the sticker.
See Detailed Test Information and click the various tabs to see the speeds.
@DanDi58 Just read the blog. Similar thoughts. Also not sure how that fancy German engineering will hold up over time. Almost everyone I know that had a VW or Audi (the newer ones from the last 10-15 years) had some type of software or electrical gremlin that took a lot of money or never got fixed.
I agree people will buy them but I think that’s mostly the 27,500 price.
As I sit here waiting for my son’s baseball practice to end in Montclair, I can’t help but notice that I’ve seen about two dozen Teslas in the last hour, most Model 3’s. One Y.
CX-5 is neat. I am in a Forester lease right now. It’s a good car (2019) but not sure about long term. It is excellent in the snow though and that’s what attracted me to Subaru years ago. I have no experience from Mazda but reviewers say they’re fun to drive. I need something that will get me home or to work safely in snowy conditions over the winter.
I agree people will buy them but I think that’s mostly the 27,500 price.
As I sit here waiting for my son’s baseball practice to end in Montclair, I can’t help but notice that I’ve seen about two dozen Teslas in the last hour, most Model 3’s. One Y.
CX-5 is neat. I am in a Forester lease right now. It’s a good car (2019) but not sure about long term. It is excellent in the snow though and that’s what attracted me to Subaru years ago. I have no experience from Mazda but reviewers say they’re fun to drive. I need something that will get me home or to work safely in snowy conditions over the winter.
My father use to always say that competition was good, that it kept everyone on their feet and honest.
From what I have read, VW is bringing out the lower end models first. This is a little different than what other manufacturers including Tesla have done, not quite sure how much longer it will be until their "flagship" will be available. I don't think it is fair to say that Tesla owners will be switching over to a VW. I do think that a lot of newbies who have been considering an electric vehicle will buy a VW instead of a Tesla. With the base price that VW is offering, Gov Incentive and three years free charging (good luck), it makes the VW very attractive. Us Tesla owners know that our cars our powerful and well engineered, but a lot of people really don't care if their car can outperform a Porsche or not. All these customers care about is having an electric vehicle so that they can say they are saving the environment and saving on gas. They want a reliable vehicle that will take them from point A to point B and I am guessing a large percentage will charge at home.
So what this means to Tesla is continued growth from satisfied customers, but maybe a drop in new customer sales. People will have more options which means that Tesla will have to play the marketing game. Tesla will need to possibly adjust pricing or offer free charging for a while longer than they do now and if they do, I feel a small amount of those people will take advantage of that. Maybe it is time to bring back an aggressive referral program, which never really worked for me, even though I sure sold quite a few Tesla's. I don't have the answers, but I do feel that it will affect Tesla sales. Not everyone wants a car that is as fast as a Tesla and that has a computer monitor that replaces all the function buttons of the car.
Watch out Tesla, the competition is here and getting stronger, time for you to pickup your game. Gaps and paint mismatch seem to be two major complaints, why not start taking care of those and have less negative comments.
From what I have read, VW is bringing out the lower end models first. This is a little different than what other manufacturers including Tesla have done, not quite sure how much longer it will be until their "flagship" will be available. I don't think it is fair to say that Tesla owners will be switching over to a VW. I do think that a lot of newbies who have been considering an electric vehicle will buy a VW instead of a Tesla. With the base price that VW is offering, Gov Incentive and three years free charging (good luck), it makes the VW very attractive. Us Tesla owners know that our cars our powerful and well engineered, but a lot of people really don't care if their car can outperform a Porsche or not. All these customers care about is having an electric vehicle so that they can say they are saving the environment and saving on gas. They want a reliable vehicle that will take them from point A to point B and I am guessing a large percentage will charge at home.
So what this means to Tesla is continued growth from satisfied customers, but maybe a drop in new customer sales. People will have more options which means that Tesla will have to play the marketing game. Tesla will need to possibly adjust pricing or offer free charging for a while longer than they do now and if they do, I feel a small amount of those people will take advantage of that. Maybe it is time to bring back an aggressive referral program, which never really worked for me, even though I sure sold quite a few Tesla's. I don't have the answers, but I do feel that it will affect Tesla sales. Not everyone wants a car that is as fast as a Tesla and that has a computer monitor that replaces all the function buttons of the car.
Watch out Tesla, the competition is here and getting stronger, time for you to pickup your game. Gaps and paint mismatch seem to be two major complaints, why not start taking care of those and have less negative comments.
manitou820
Member
Bjorn performed charging and efficiency tests on the ID.3 with really good results. Odds are the ID.4 will be similar.
Our Etron gets the same efficiency as our Model X. As a result I get about 210 miles of range in the Etron on highway road trips and about 235 miles in the X. Etron crushes the EPA rating and our X falls way short. Also our X is a 2018 so it charges way slower than the Etron. As a result, if there are EA chargers along the route the Etron is actually faster for the road trip. Obviously it doesn't have the same storage space and etc, but the Etron is really impressive. It's sooooo much more quieter than the X even though it feels much less sporty.
In my opinion VW looks to have a hit on their hands. That price (especially with the tax credit) is really competitive. Agree it's not a cool and sporty as a Y, but for many people who want to buy an EV, that $10k-$15k difference is enormous.
Our Etron gets the same efficiency as our Model X. As a result I get about 210 miles of range in the Etron on highway road trips and about 235 miles in the X. Etron crushes the EPA rating and our X falls way short. Also our X is a 2018 so it charges way slower than the Etron. As a result, if there are EA chargers along the route the Etron is actually faster for the road trip. Obviously it doesn't have the same storage space and etc, but the Etron is really impressive. It's sooooo much more quieter than the X even though it feels much less sporty.
In my opinion VW looks to have a hit on their hands. That price (especially with the tax credit) is really competitive. Agree it's not a cool and sporty as a Y, but for many people who want to buy an EV, that $10k-$15k difference is enormous.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Well, if we compare the MY with the ID3/4:
Bjorn's test of the ID3 1st (the most efficient) he got about 170 miles of range @ 72mph. So, I have to assume the ID4 would be looking at 170 miles (or 70% rated range) in a similar scenario, all things being equal. It should really be less, considering the ID4 isn't going to be as efficient...maybe 155 of range?
Meanwhile, we have MY achieving 289 miles @ 70 mph (91% rated range). Now, the average speed was about 2 mph higher with the ID3, so the MY would be a bit less efficient at 72mph.
Personally, if I'm only interested in a grocery getter the ID4 is competitively priced. However, as a family of 5 we use the Model 3 MR for that purpose. I can't use 170-155 miles, via the EA network, as a replacement for our travel vehicle. Even our MX90D routinely achieved 190 miles @75 (in Fall/Winter) and we had access to the SC network.
Of course, the ID3 was rated on WLTP, so it possibly would have been rated for 220 miles EPA which would have given it 76% of rated range...which would mean the ID4 might see closer to ~180.
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Why would you assume the same range for the ID3 that Bjorn tested and the ID4?
The ID3 has a wltp range of 260 miles. The ID4 battery capacity is 33% higher (82kwh) and it has a wltp rating of 311 miles. That’s only 3 miles less than the estimated wltp range of the MY.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
The useable capacity is only 77kWh, and because the EPA rating is 250....which is totally in line with WLTP's average of 18% off of EPA.
Anyway, I think I already laid out my methodology...even if we factor in WLTP the ID4 isn't going to get above 200 miles at Hwy speed.
manitou820
Member
Bjorn's 120km/hr test are equal to 74.4mph which is a little higher than you were assuming. Also the range for the Model Y at 70mph is not equivalent. But regardless, yes the Model Y will probably go further. Yes Tesla has better charging infrastructure for the moment. But the same arguments you wouldn't buy an ID.4 are the same arguments people make everyday about not driving a Tesla. It might not work for you which is perfectly fine. Tesla's are amazing and the Model Y is an amazing car. I'm just saying that at $10k cheaper, plus qualifying for the $7500 tax credit, the ID.4 is in a completely different price category. No EV's in that price range compete with the ID.4 on the total package (size of vehicle, tech, charging speed, and range). So the ID.4 will open a new market for EV's which in my book is great. Anything to get people to stop buying ICE.
Edit: My father-n-law is on his third Rav-4. I've been trying to get him to get a Tesla and I was sure the Model Y would be it. But he can't afford a $50k SUV. I just told him about the ID.4 yesterday and now for the first time he's seriously considering an EV. For him, the range and everything else is perfect. He doesn't need a long road trip CUV.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Well, I wasn't really intending to talk up the MY. It was more an explanation of why the ID4 may not sell as well as the MY, even at the lower price point. Having practical Hwy range of 180 miles, in good weather, is going to be a limitation for many people. Many of the postings I saw in comments sections were from people that expected to get closer to EPA rated range on the highway, since "the Taycan does better than EPA."
I've been trying to get my father into a purely electric vehicle, but the best I've been able to do is get him into two consecutive CMAX Energis. The main issue is that he wants ~350 miles of Hwy range, access to a fleshed out charging network, and only spend around $30k. No Tesla, or any other BEV meets these conditions in one package.
Thanks. Without getting too far off topic, there seems to be a lot of concerns with the Skyactiv tech which I suppose is their version of Direct Injection. I don’t know if your CX5 has DI or not, but that’s one of the things with modern ICE’s that keeps me up at night. That and the fact they all use a CVT which is not really repairable upon failure. I really don’t want to have to deal with a $9000 CVT replacement bill (that’s the cost of the Subaru CVT) if it goes out after warranty.
The i3 is a great car, sorry you cant see that, do keep in mind that a lot of Tesla owners came from other EV's first or own other EV's along side their Tesla. Its the only Carbon Fiber car you can buy at a true consumer price, and when purchased used, insane value for money considering the materials of construction. Also, the frame is aluminum, so zero rust. The Tesla beloved Sandy Munro was BLOWN AWAY (in a good way) when they tore down the i3. If you only focus on the size of the vehicle and the range, especially 2013-2016, you lose sight of a true engineering marvel. I realize I am partial as we have owned 3.
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Snow Drift
[Off-Road Assist] Activated
On our 6th Subaru now (3 WRX, 1 STI, 2 Crosstrek Hybrids), and I would not let you look at Mazda if you care about snow capability. The Model 3 was good in snow and I'm sure the Model Y will be as well. I also use snow tires.
NY_Rob
Member
I seriously hope that first time EV buyers don't get a bad taste in their mouth's with the RWD ID4's pathetic acceleration and assume all EV's are that lame.
ID4 acceleration will probably be typical for that class of ICE vehicle. But I'm sure that the secondary reason the Model Y PUP upgrade was released by Tesla was to make a stark differentiation when the youtube drag races between ID4 and Y appear. You know the guys that post Tesla drag races will be hunting for a cooperative ID4 owner.
I suggest a model Y towing an ID4 while drag racing an ID4 would be a fun recast of the Top Gear episode.
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