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AP 2.0 So much negativity!

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Why are we falling into two categories (again) here? Isn't it possible that Tesla has done wonderful things, exceeded expectations on some items, and over-promised and under-delivered on other items? Must their past successes translate to future success on every promise, or must their past failures translate to future failures on every new promise? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

At the risk of sounding older than I am, and receiving the age-hammer, I do recall a time when there were moderates. That time was when people would meet face to face and discuss things. Once we get online, there's something about written medium that's too task intensive to explain a middle position, so people often just fall into one side or the other.

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of the timeframe on AP 2.0 software implementation. It's also reasonable to be skeptical of whether or not that hardware is going to be sufficient, once they have some experience with it. But that doesn't mean we can't assume they're actually intent on doing it, and that there are skilled personnel working very hard every day at making that a reality. I also don't understand why anyone would hope for the failure of this technology.
 
Yes, Elon is "Salesman in Chief". Not "Provider In Chief" but just a cheap salesman. I mean come on now, all he's done in a few short years is provide us with a long range EV that goes 0-60 in 2.7 seconds, superchargers for long distance travel, best AP of any automaker and a US automaker outselling Mercedes, BMW, Audi, And Porsche In US.

I agree. It's all hype by that "Salesman in Chief." And what a fool I am since I still haven't caught on - AT ALL.

But you? You're a genius. You saw him as that swine "Salesman in Chief" he is! You nailed him right on with your description of him In fact, he will go down in history exactly as you described him:

"Salesman in Chief"
0-60 in 2.5 seconds not 2.7.
You challenged us to provide examples of hyperbole and you got them and didn't refute any of them. Yes he's in the business of selling cars if you don't think so you're being naive. I never said I didn't love my car, the SuperCharger network or that he's a "swine" (those are your words not mine) so no need to create a straw man to support your argument (yes I saw what you did there).
 
Why are we falling into two categories (again) here? Isn't it possible that Tesla has done wonderful things, exceeded expectations on some items, and over-promised and under-delivered on other items? Must their past successes translate to future success on every promise, or must their past failures translate to future failures on every new promise? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

At the risk of sounding older than I am, and receiving the age-hammer, I do recall a time when there were moderates. That time was when people would meet face to face and discuss things. Once we get online, there's something about written medium that's too task intensive to explain a middle position, so people often just fall into one side or the other.

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of the timeframe on AP 2.0 software implementation. It's also reasonable to be skeptical of whether or not that hardware is going to be sufficient, once they have some experience with it. But that doesn't mean we can't assume they're actually intent on doing it, and that there are skilled personnel working very hard every day at making that a reality. I also don't understand why anyone would hope for the failure of this technology.
You're absolutely correct. Thanks for being the voice of calm and moderation.
 
"You are a fool"

Jeez, I never expected to be called names on this forum :(

@Canuck can clarify but FWIW I understood his comments to be sarcasm -- a response to statements by others that Elon is a huckster.

I did not read his statement to be directed to you at all (sarcasm can be a little tricky on the internet ....)
 
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"You are a fool"

Jeez, I never expected to be called names on this forum :(

It was sarcasm. I have the utmost of respect for you!

0-60 in 2.5 seconds not 2.7.
You challenged us to provide examples of hyperbole and you got them and didn't refute any of them. Yes he's in the business of selling cars if you don't think so you're being naive. I never said I didn't love my car, the SuperCharger network or that he's a "swine" (those are your words not mine) so no need to create a straw man to support your argument (yes I saw what you did there).

Yes, you're right. I just like to be the contrarian sometimes (most of the time?). To tell you the truth, I really enjoy reading your posts and what you contribute to this forum. So please don't take me wrong when I challenge you. Life's too boring if we all get along.

Why are we falling into two categories (again) here? Isn't it possible that Tesla has done wonderful things, exceeded expectations on some items, and over-promised and under-delivered on other items? Must their past successes translate to future success on every promise, or must their past failures translate to future failures on every new promise? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Damn voice of reason! How much time do I have to spend in the principal's office?

That time was when people would meet face to face and discuss things. Once we get online, there's something about written medium that's too task intensive to explain a middle position, so people often just fall into one side or the other.

You need to come to my house when me and my family/friends get together. There's no middle position and we all believe WE are right. And I don't think I'd want it any other way. (Have you ever been to an Italian family dinner?)
 
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You need to come to my house when me and my family/friends get together. There's no middle position and we all believe WE are right. And I don't think I'd want it any other way. (Have you ever been to an Italian family dinner?)
I accept your invitation. Especially if there's going to be beer involved.

And yes, my father came from Italy, so I grew up with very, very loud Italian family dinners. As a kid, I somehow could fall asleep to the loud droning - almost like white noise at the time.
 
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<snip>

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of the timeframe on AP 2.0 software implementation. It's also reasonable to be skeptical of whether or not that hardware is going to be sufficient, once they have some experience with it. But that doesn't mean we can't assume they're actually intent on doing it, and that there are skilled personnel working very hard every day at making that a reality. I also don't understand why anyone would hope for the failure of this technology.

Here is my attempt at a translation of the @ohmman viewpoint on AP2.0:

65079239.jpg
 
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It was sarcasm. I have the utmost of respect for you!



Yes, you're right. I just like to be the contrarian sometimes (most of the time?). To tell you the truth, I really enjoy reading your posts and what you contribute to this forum. So please don't take me wrong when I challenge you. Life's too boring if we all get along.



Damn voice of reason! How much time do I have to spend in the principal's office?



You need to come to my house when me and my family/friends get together. There's no middle position and we all believe WE are right. And I don't think I'd want it any other way. (Have you ever been to an Italian family dinner?)


Totally missed the sarcasm, it's hard to tell on the forum, some people are really upset with Tesla. Glad you know it was in jest.
 
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Why are we falling into two categories (again) here? Isn't it possible that Tesla has done wonderful things, exceeded expectations on some items, and over-promised and under-delivered on other items? Must their past successes translate to future success on every promise, or must their past failures translate to future failures on every new promise? Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

At the risk of sounding older than I am, and receiving the age-hammer, I do recall a time when there were moderates. That time was when people would meet face to face and discuss things. Once we get online, there's something about written medium that's too task intensive to explain a middle position, so people often just fall into one side or the other.

I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of the timeframe on AP 2.0 software implementation. It's also reasonable to be skeptical of whether or not that hardware is going to be sufficient, once they have some experience with it. But that doesn't mean we can't assume they're actually intent on doing it, and that there are skilled personnel working very hard every day at making that a reality. I also don't understand why anyone would hope for the failure of this technology.

Part of it likely has to do with the way the Full-Self driving capability package is being advertised. It runs counter to our expectations when it comes to the way a product is presented.

When we talk about the Enhanced Autopilot everything is grounded in terms of what our expectations are for it. The only thing that really gets debated is the aggressive timeline given for it to reach parity with AP 1.0. If I was buying the car today there would be no question that I would get that package. With a reasonable level of confidence it will do what's claimed. In the unlikely event that I don't end up getting the meat and potatoes part of it I have some recourse.

The Full driving capability package is completely different though. From the very beginning the description of the package starts off bad where it doubles the number of activate cameras with no mention of which cameras those are. It also doesn't give any indication of when they get activated. Do they get activated now or at some later date sometime down the road? What kind of weather can these cameras handle since I presume they're the outside ones. In the current car the backup camera isn't even useable during parts of the year without first wiping it off. Then it talks about the automatic charge connection which is really exciting, but there is no indication of the timeline of the rollout for this. Then it talks about a Tesla taking an optimal route, but to do this it's going to need a greatly improved nav because what it has right now will simply not work.

At this point in reading the description my mind is spinning because the expectation for this stuff is years away. There has been some ground work for this, but it's not nearly there yet. Nothing in my experience with AP 1.0, computers, AI, or really anything in the tech industry or in the driving world prepares me for this. I'm constantly having to reboot/power-cycle things, or remembering what gotcha's and glitches they have. I constantly have to remain vigilant on the road not just for other drivers, but for terrible road designs. There is all kinds of crap constructions crews pull. Like "Hey, lets see what happens when we don't bother painting any lines before a sudden shift in direction", and they leave it like that for months before going back to finish the job.

I'm in full agreement with the journey that Tesla is taking towards self-driving. But, I can't get behind the approach Tesla is taking to the Full Self-Driving capability package.

The way it is comes across more as fantasy than anything within the realm of reality for the next couple years. That might work well for Kickstarter, and investors but not for end customers. For luxury cars you typically see ownerships of 3-4 years (due to leasing). They could very well not have anything from that package during the entire 3-4 years of their lease. So if they opt for it they're really just giving money to Tesla to fight the good fight. Which is okay if that's your intention.
 
I'm 49, in the best shape of my life, and love to compete against the 20+ year olds when doing CrossFit. To me, age is just a number but I'm very young at heart. I listen to electronic music, alternative, gothic, old school, rock, etc. and I frequently travel the country to see concerts and shows. When people as me my age and I tell them, their reply is almost always, "No Way"! I always respond with, "I'm 49 going on 30". :)

Life's what you make it and so is aging, I prefer youthful at heart and always look for the positive in any given situation. ;)

Oh, here's the proof and pic attached. Yep, 49! ;)

SG.jpg
 
0-60 in 2.5 seconds not 2.7.
You challenged us to provide examples of hyperbole and you got them and didn't refute any of them. Yes he's in the business of selling cars if you don't think so you're being naive. I never said I didn't love my car, the SuperCharger network or that he's a "swine" (those are your words not mine) so no need to create a straw man to support your argument (yes I saw what you did there).

Thank you! Don't rob me of those 0.2 seconds! :rolleyes:
 
I'm in full agreement with the journey that Tesla is taking towards self-driving. But, I can't get behind the approach Tesla is taking to the Full Self-Driving capability package.

The way it is comes across more as fantasy than anything within the realm of reality for the next couple years. That might work well for Kickstarter, and investors but not for end customers. For luxury cars you typically see ownerships of 3-4 years (due to leasing). They could very well not have anything from that package during the entire 3-4 years of their lease. So if they opt for it they're really just giving money to Tesla to fight the good fight. Which is okay if that's your intention.

I can understand why some customers might choose not to pay $3000 upfront for the Full Self Driving Capability package, especially customers who are skeptical about Tesla's timeline for rolling out this capability. But I don't see a problem with Tesla offering a customer the option of saving $1000 by ordering it upfront.

Tesla plans to demonstrate a fully autonomous drive from the streets of LA to Central Park or a similar location in NYC in late 2017. That's only one year away. So if a customer who is excited by the technology and sees Tesla's timeline as achievable wants to save $1000 and help fund development of the technology (and the Model 3) in the meantime, I don't see how that hurts anyone. I expect the take rate on this option will be relatively low compared to Enhanced AP at first and then grow as Tesla adds features to Enhanced AP and it becomes easier for customers to visualize that the self-driving capability is real. Over time, the customer can enjoy the new capabilities as they roll out, and have a better car than when he or she bought it. I think that's fantastic -- something no other manufacturer offers.

To look at it another way, if Tesla did not announce a pricing plan for Self-Driving, and 1 or 2 years from now announced it would charge $4000 to enable it, people would be up in arms. This way, Tesla provides options, and customers can choose which path they want to follow.
 
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