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AP/phantom braking.

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Well that explains phantom braking for me; Tesla’s software takes breaks then brakes.
Ha ha

But seriously, the fact that Tesla's auto drive system seems to have little or no connection between what happened a second ago, what's likely to happen during the next couple of seconds and what's happening in the current vision frame isn't very encouraging.

There must be an element of prediction working in FSD Beta but it doesn't look smoothly linked together. And for those of us with no hope of FSD Beta in the foreseeable future, you'd at least hope that the necessary smooth and connected processing needed for FSD Beta would be filtered down to good old FSD / EAP.
 
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Sure..... that would apply to buying a new VO Tesla without radar.

I didn't buy into OTA meddling. Again, I'm fine with OTA as a concept and delivery platform for updates / upgrades and even critical patches, but the car as delivered should not have suffered from phantom braking and I didn't sign up to be the test bed for working out how to fix the issue.

The fact that the 'meddling' with MY car (rather than applying a 100% solid fix) by ongoing and poorly documented OTA updates that arrive in a somewhat haphazard manner takes place apparently without thorough testing and regulatory approval is also a concern.

What I buy into (already have recently bought into) from Tesla or other manufacturers doesn't effect my view of or satisfaction with what I previously bought into.
What's stopping you from selling the car and buying something that will make you happy?
 
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What's stopping you from selling the car and buying something that will make you happy?
I think you’re missing the point - This isn’t a case of getting a car and then deciding you don’t like it after you get it home. @Battpower is taking issue with how Tesla chooses to disable features and hardware that was on his/her car after they bought it. Why should someone need to buy their car because the company changed the functionality and made it less useful after you bought and paid for it?

I can’t disagree - Tesla has a history of deciding to change how a feature works, then rolling out a half-baked version. If they are going to change something they have an obligation to make sure the ‘upgrade’ is at least as good as the version they’re replacing. Touting new features is nice but when it comes to functions like adaptive cruise that are standard in the marketplace, I have no patience for buggy software. The bar on this was set a decade ago.
 
I think you’re missing the point - This isn’t a case of getting a car and then deciding you don’t like it after you get it home. @Battpower is taking issue with how Tesla chooses to disable features and hardware that was on his/her car after they bought it. Why should someone need to buy their car because the company changed the functionality and made it less useful after you bought and paid for it?

I can’t disagree - Tesla has a history of deciding to change how a feature works, then rolling out a half-baked version. If they are going to change something they have an obligation to make sure the ‘upgrade’ is at least as good as the version they’re replacing. Touting new features is nice but when it comes to functions like adaptive cruise that are standard in the marketplace, I have no patience for buggy software. The bar on this was set a decade ago.
Okay, let's look at it from another angle:

I bought my Tesla with radar, and I had terrible phantom braking. I joined TMC and found that many others had the same problem, it was a common issue and was being explained as a fusion problem where radar was getting false information back (especially around overpasses and large freeway signs), and disagreeing with cameras.

It got a little better with updates, but still frustrating. Then I was accepted into FSD Beta late last year, which disabled radar for vision only. My PBs got better. And subsequent updates have improved thing dramatically so that now PBs are very minor and fairly infrequent.

For me, removing radar made a very positive impact. Now some people are having the opposite effect, removal of radar has caused more problems for them. Why? Are their cameras misaligned? Is their calibration incorrect? Is there a hardware problem (such as a loose wiring harness)?

Some people are mad and yelling they want radar returned. What about me? Why should I have radar forced back on my car where PBs would then get worse? I don't want radar - it sucked when I had it!

Now that's done, let's think about the company for a moment.

If you honestly think that Tesla is an evil company where hundreds of engineers are working every day to screw up your driving experience, remove features, and cause accidents, then I respect that. Again, my advice to you is to sell the car and purchase something else that will make you happy. Jumping up and down and yelling won't solve anything. Suing won't fix your car, that's not how lawsuits work. You could get some money to compensate you for your experience, but you'll still have the car you don't like. The ultimate solution will be to take that money and sell the car and get a new one.

If you think Tesla is a good company, but just don't agree with how they are proceeding by altering the cars, then my advice would be to see how you can work with Tesla to enhance your experience. It's clear that many people have excellent experiences with vision only. Work with Tesla service and other TMC users to see if you can improve your experience. Some people find hardware problems and get them resolved, or equipment failures, and get the equipment replaced. Some people have found software installation issues, and had software re-installed. Some found a complete factory reset and re-imaging the software fixed issues for them (like rebuilding your Windows PC by re-installing Windows). Some have found that multiple re-calibrations of the cameras, and multiple reboots of the system solved their problem. Some found a complete disconnect of all electrical systems (both 12v and main battery pack), which forces a complete power down (like pulling the power cord from your computer, and removing the battery from your laptop), solved their problem.

I choose to think of Tesla as a market disrupter - a technology company that just happens to make cars. They are changing the car buying experience, and changing how we think about technology in cars. I hear about people getting MCU upgrades and camera upgrades on their cars, which gives them access to newer features. OMG - that's amazing to me. Never has a car company in the past told their customers they can come in and get new technology added/replaced to their car. They have always said if you want new features on our refreshed models, trade in your car and buy the new one. How many other cars even had OTA updates to their cars previously? And now it's so common with Tesla that people are complaining when there isn't a software update for more than 2 months. I chuckle when I read those complaints. :)

I'll give one final story about a Chevy Bolt I owned (1st gen). After a year or so, the air conditioning went out, and on a terrible day for it too - 100 degrees F. I took it to service and they said the coolant was low. The refilled the coolant and all was well. Then a few weeks later, it went out again. The said there was a leak somewhere, and they kept the car for several days, then said they fixed it. A month or so later, it went out again. They kept it for even longer, and had to work with Chevy corporate, but said they thought they found the problem. They didn't. One last time into service, and they finally found the real leak - a pin-hole sized leak in a very difficult to reach spot. They kept the car for nearly two weeks. They had to remove the dash, parts of the engine, and the windshield just to get at the leak. But they got it. I was seriously inconvenienced, and had a loaner car for nearly a month all total. I had to work with two different dealers, and have frustrating conversations with service managers. I was nearly ready to reach out to a lawyer for lemon law, but got it figured out in the end.

If you try everything to help yourself, and you try service and don't get anywhere, keep trying. Try a different service center, speak with different service people. Reach out to Tesla customer service and explain the issues and ask for help working with the local service centers. In the end, if you cannot get it resolved after all your efforts, seek legal help.
 
For me, removing radar made a very positive impact. Now some people are having the opposite effect, removal of radar has caused more problems for them. Why?
I have a hypothesis for this valid question. We've had our Model 3 over four years, including FSDß for about a year. So I've experience both forms of phantom braking.

The old form (when you could guess at all) seemed to be related to relatively close "threats" like bridges or misinterpreting the location of a truck nearby, but in a different lane. The new version of phantom braking (at least in my experience) is for distant objects and phenomena that the AI doesn't understand are distant. My two favorites are the far-ahead car that's hidden by a dip or rise in the road and then becomes visible, and mirages. Both cause braking incidents. Neither seemed associated with phantom braking when there was radar, which was good at telling there was no car close ahead and was presumably blind to mirages.

So why has the elimination of radar made the experience better for some and worse for others?

I think it's different driving situations. The no-radar form of phantom braking requires long stretches of open, straight highway, often found on freeways away from populated areas. We see lots of this crossing Nevada, for example. So if you drive mostly in cities or on busy highways, you won't see much of the new form of phantom braking. So removal of radar improved your experience. And it improved mine doing normal daily stuff around southern Oregon. But on the long road trips, it's now significantly worse.

Of course, Tesla software engineers live around the densely populated Palo Alto with busy highways.
 
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I was accepted into FSD Beta late last year, which disabled radar for vision only. My PBs got better.

Sorry, the quotes are not in the right order.
It may well be that VO is better wrt phantom braking for FSD Beta. Here in UK FSD is still the original version only. My point here is the justification for and evolution of radar alternatives is not based around the needs of original FSD cars.

my advice would be to see how you can work with Tesla to enhance your experience.

Most owners would love this imo. Since Tesla seem hell bent on removing all face to face communication with owners and make it almost impossible to maintain any engagement, it's a joke to suggest owners should 'work with Tesla'. You mean something like a 'bug report' mechanism?

You saw improvement from updates

I never saw 'better'. I did see variability between updates. Either suggests that what was originally sold needed significant work to bring up to acceptable performance.

removing radar made a very positive impact.

Positive for you does not mean positive for every one.
 
Sorry, the quotes are not in the right order.
It may well be that VO is better wrt phantom braking for FSD Beta. Here in UK FSD is still the original version only. My point here is the justification for and evolution of radar alternatives is not based around the needs of original FSD cars.



Most owners would love this imo. Since Tesla seem hell bent on removing all face to face communication with owners and make it almost impossible to maintain any engagement, it's a joke to suggest owners should 'work with Tesla'. You mean something like a 'bug report' mechanism?

You saw improvement from updates

I never saw 'better'. I did see variability between updates. Either suggests that what was originally sold needed significant work to bring up to acceptable performance.



Positive for you does not mean positive for every one.
The ray of hope you can cling to is that improvements that have happened in FSD Beta will come to those without FSD (AP/EAP), as you mentioned that FSD Beta is not available across the pond.

Again, you seem to be very unhappy with Tesla as a company and the car - why wouldn't you just sell the car and get one that makes you happy? Don't like your computer? Sell it and get a new one. Don't like your washer/dryer? Sell em and get a new one. Is there no used car market for Teslas over there?

I'm not trying to be a douche, I'm legitimately trying to understand the marketplace in the UK, and the decision making for holding onto something that you don't like.
 
The ray of hope you can cling to is that improvements that have happened in FSD Beta will come to those without FSD (AP/EAP), as you mentioned that FSD Beta is not available across the pond.

Again, you seem to be very unhappy with Tesla as a company and the car - why wouldn't you just sell the car and get one that makes you happy? Don't like your computer? Sell it and get a new one. Don't like your washer/dryer? Sell em and get a new one. Is there no used car market for Teslas over there?

I'm not trying to be a douche, I'm legitimately trying to understand the marketplace in the UK, and the decision making for holding onto something that you don't like.
I have had 5 EV's and am very familiar with several other owners' experiences with other EVs.

I currently own a Kona and MS R 2019. I like to keep vehicles a long time. I have a 91 Lotus Elan in San Diego and MK1 '94 Toyota Rav 4.

I don't tend to buy on a whim, and I don't sell on a whim either. I know the grass is generally not greener on the other side!

Regardless of vehicle age I hold the manufacturer responsible for delivering what I will live with for some time. It is a package deal - good and bad and I trust the manufacturer to make a reasonable effort that their pre sales claims as well as industry norms are met by their products and service. I don't think that is unreasonable, and the alternative is to just keep jumping from one offer to another hoping to strike it lucky.

From a UK owner pov, it doesn't look like Tesla has done much if anything to demonstrate that it takes this market seriously. It feels like 'regulatory approval' or lack of is a convenient excuse for doing nothing to deliver any performance beyond original EAP for those who purchased FSD. They took our money and gave no evidence that there is any effort to deliver.

The fact that I regularly sing praises for the Kona which over delivers in most areas compared with the MS which sits under a tatty car cover most of the time is my way of repaying what the cars have done for me. The fact that my MS ceased to benefit from useful OTA updates almost from day 1 is shared with those who ask after my experience along with phantom braking and lack of FSD development. I love some aspects of the car and charging infrastructure, but Tesla behave as though my car still belongs to them. I've bought the car, and I'm still hopeful that Tesla might honour at least the spirit of what they sold me. Next year my 4 year wty expires and the original extended wty option here was withdrawn just after I bought the car. So there is a good chance I'll sell next year.

Selling doesn't bring closure though as far as I'm concerned. I bought something I never fully had delivered and by selling I let Tesla off the hook of any obligation they still had to me to deliver.

Like hi res radar or lidar that actually does what my car should have done. Or auto headlights that work. Auto wipers that work. Reversing camera that you can use at night. Ultrasonic sensors that work below a foot away. HVAC that doesn't fog up inside. B Pilar cameras that don't fog up. Driving lights and rear lights that don't fill with water.

But phantom braking is by far the worst issue I've had. And it only takes one event every 2 or 3 months to leave you seriously lacking in confidence.
 
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I have had 5 EV's and am very familiar with several other owners' experiences with other EVs.

I currently own a Kona and MS R 2019. I like to keep vehicles a long time. I have a 91 Lotus Elan in San Diego and MK1 '94 Toyota Rav 4.

I don't tend to buy on a whim, and I don't sell on a whim either. I know the grass is generally not greener on the other side!

Regardless of vehicle age I hold the manufacturer responsible for delivering what I will live with for some time. It is a package deal - good and bad and I trust the manufacturer to make a reasonable effort that their pre sales claims as well as industry norms are met by their products and service. I don't think that is unreasonable, and the alternative is to just keep jumping from one offer to another hoping to strike it lucky.

From a UK owner pov, it doesn't look like Tesla has done much if anything to demonstrate that it takes this market seriously. It feels like 'regulatory approval' or lack of is a convenient excuse for doing nothing to deliver any performance beyond original EAP for those who purchased FSD. They took our money and gave no evidence that there is any effort to deliver.

The fact that I regularly sing praises for the Kona which over delivers in most areas compared with the MS which sits under a tatty car cover most of the time is my way of repaying what the cars have done for me. The fact that my MS ceased to benefit from useful OTA updates almost from day 1 is shared with those who ask after my experience along with phantom braking and lack of FSD development. I love some aspects of the car and charging infrastructure, but Tesla behave as though my car still belongs to them. I've bought the car, and I'm still hopeful that Tesla might honour at least the spirit of what they sold me. Next year my 4 year wty expires and the original extended wty option here was withdrawn just after I bought the car. So there is a good chance I'll sell next year.

Selling doesn't bring closure though as far as I'm concerned. I bought something I never fully had delivered and by selling I let Tesla off the hook of any obligation they still had to me to deliver.

Like hi res radar or lidar that actually does what my car should have done. Or auto headlights that work. Auto wipers that work. Reversing camera that you can use at night. Ultrasonic sensors that work below a foot away. HVAC that doesn't fog up inside. B Pilar cameras that don't fog up. Driving lights and rear lights that don't fill with water.

But phantom braking is by far the worst issue I've had. And it only takes one event every 2 or 3 months to leave you seriously lacking in confidence.
Thanks for clarifying your position. All I can do at this point is wish you luck. I hope you can affect change and your car becomes the one you want. Keep us up to date on your progress towards that goal. I'm sure there are many here, myself included, that would be very interested in the outcome.
 
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Just different standards / expectations.
Im in agreement with you. Im old school and simply expect to have delivered. what was advertised/promised. My answer to that is never to give up/give in/take a loss/sell when that promise is broken. Nah. Thats not me. In some cases, im going to complain/whine/complain more, and if/when appropriate...complain some more. And in some cases, issue demand letters, find out the agent companies use in my state, and file civil cases in court. And I'll STILL complain. (while adhering to any NDA's that may or may not apply).

And for those who dont like the complaints? Thats why there is a scroll wheel on the mouse.
 
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Im in agreement with you. Im old school and simply expect to have delivered. what was advertised/promised. My answer to that is never to give up/give in/take a loss/sell when that promise is broken. Nah. Thats not me. In some cases, im going to complain/whine/complain more, and if/when appropriate...complain some more. And in some cases, issue demand letters, find out the agent companies use in my state, and file civil cases in court. And I'll STILL complain. (while adhering to any NDA's that may or may not apply).

And for those who dont like the complaints? Thats why there is a scroll wheel on the mouse.
That's all well and good, but is your car fixed? Does it work properly for you now? Is everything promised now delivered on your vehicle? Even after your court case, did it get your car working the way you wanted?

It would be awesome if a judge could order Tesla to give you everything promised and fix all issues with the car, and then suddenly your car did it all. I don't have much experience with court, but for some reason I doubt that's how it works. :)

It's like falling in love with a person, moving in with them and starting a life together. Then they start/stop acting a certain way, and you start noticing things about them you don't like. Or things they used to do, but don't do anymore. You fall out of love with them, have fights, complain about how they used to be, but nothing gets resolved. You try everything to fix it, including seeing a couples councilor, and even threaten legal action against them. And then, in the end, you just keep living with them and looking at them every day and being annoyed, instead of just breaking up and moving on. Why put yourself through the grief? Unless you're trying to be noble and keep someone else from getting into a relationship with them, because you know they are terrible. 😁 In that case you're quite self-sacrificing.
 
I bought my Tesla with radar, and I had terrible phantom braking. I joined TMC and found that many others had the same problem, it was a common issue and was being explained as a fusion problem where radar was getting false information back (especially around overpasses and large freeway signs), and disagreeing with cameras.

The truth is any radar solution requires careful antenna design to rid sidelobe returns in the both vertical and horizontal planes. It's part of the antenna design spec. Not sure how any major company could miss something that glaring. I bet Tesla's radar team has a more believable narrative. :)
 
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Wish that was the case. It is not. If it were the person would move on to something that meets their standards / expectations. Rather they will nag about it daily.
Or nag about people nagging?

Manufacturers build expectations that help sell their products. Once you have bought into those expectations, are you saying you should just shrug and move on if they aren't met? Especially related to stuff that is broadly delivered by other (cheaper) manufacturers.

TMC would be a quiet place if the only posts were one sided saying everything is within spec.
 
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Or nag about people nagging?

Manufacturers build expectations that help sell their products. Once you have bought into those expectations, are you saying you should just shrug and move on if they aren't met? Especially related to stuff that is broadly delivered by other (cheaper) manufacturers.

TMC would be a quiet place if the only posts were one sided saying everything is within spec.
This guy gets it. How is this tiny, crap toy car company even still in business treating its customers like this? Only a matter of time before they are sued and regulated out of business for lame engineering, unbelievably bad features, insanely poor build quality, and blatant lying of the dictator in charge.
 
I had a 90 mile drive along an interstate highway yesterday. Almost entirely on AP. Zero PB incidents. Admittedly it was at night so no heat mirages and no shadows cast onto roadway. So there is that
Which proves the fact that in daylight there is information overload. Vision can see too many things and needs to make decisions accordingly.
 
Which proves the fact that in daylight there is information overload. Vision can see too many things and needs to make decisions accordingly.
well, not really. I've had 90 mile drives during the day with no issues. Does that prove there is no information overload?

Humans naturally pare down information. We have a 180º+ field of vision but the acuity and usefulness varies greatly across that field. At the periphery it's really only useful for detecting motion where as high-acuity vision is limited to the central area. One of the big potential advantages of a FSD system is it can 'look' in more than one direction. Making a right turn is a great example - FSD can 'see' the pedestrian coming from the right while simultaneously watching traffic from the left.

Of course all of that requires more processing. I don't know to what extent that is a limiting factor and/or what steps Tesla takes to pare down that information.
 
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