AP takes 90° left turn through intersection without lines. How?

[BANKWUPT]

I posted this video on the teslamotors subreddit yesterday and got some interesting feedback and would like to have a deeper discussion. Some were saying the reason it was able to complete this turn is because it was following the vehicle in front through the intersection, but I never have that happen in other intersections. Usually if there are no guide lines it turns slightly but then just continues straight into the intersection until I get the "red hands." I know AP1 uses the car in front for guidance when it can't see lines, the car turns blue on the display and it follows. But does AP2+ do this as well, just doesn't display anything? That one intersection is the only one I've found where it does it consistently and I won't be going back to that area for a week or so, but I wanted to get feedback from others. What is AP looking for when lines aren't present? Does anyone else have an intersection like this that AP tries to do itself?

 

[SSonnentag]

Impressive indeed! I haven't tried AP in town, so I have no idea how widespread this would work.

 

[croman]

Probably spline data. I've only gotten it to turn with dashed lines. As you said usually it gets 1/3 of the way through and throws on red hands and quits nowadays. It used to do turns before it knew what it was doing if that makes sense. I think now AP knows a lot more about it's surroundings and disengages because it's operating outside accepted parameters.

 

[dknisely]

I posted this video on the teslamotors subreddit yesterday and got some interesting feedback and would like to have a deeper discussion. Some were saying the reason it was able to complete this turn is because it was following the vehicle in front through the intersection, but I never have that happen in other intersections. Usually if there are no guide lines it turns slightly but then just continues straight into the intersection until I get the "red hands." I know AP1 uses the car in front for guidance when it can't see lines, the car turns blue on the display and it follows. But does AP2+ do this as well, just doesn't display anything? That one intersection is the only one I've found where it does it consistently and I won't be going back to that area for a week or so, but I wanted to get feedback from others. What is AP looking for when lines aren't present? Does anyone else have an intersection like this that AP tries to do itself?

Might be almost entirely car following. In the very recent minor releases, there is a different behavior for a case near me where a left turn lane opens up. For the past few months, AP started taking the left turn lane rather than the straight through lane (100% of the time), but in the one or two most recent minor releases (theoretically no AP changes), it will now very reliably take the straight through lane if there is a car to follow (crap shoot if nothing to follow). That wasn't true before. I've noticed other cases where following logic is better in bends and left or right forks in the road where the direction to follow is ambiguous (following is favored now).

Did you try without using the turn signal? I doubt very much it has anything to do with the turn signal being on.

 

[thewishmaster]

Impressive, I don't trust mine on

Might be almost entirely car following. In the very recent minor releases, there is a different behavior for a case near me where a left turn lane opens up. For the past few months, AP started taking the left turn lane rather than the straight through lane (100% of the time), but in the one or two most recent minor releases (theoretically no AP changes), it will now very reliably take the straight through lane if there is a car to follow (crap shoot if nothing to follow). That wasn't true before. I've noticed other cases where following logic is better in bends and left or right forks in the road where the direction to follow is ambiguous (following is favored now).

Did you try without using the turn signal? I doubt very much it has anything to do with the turn signal being on.

Seems like the turn signal in this case was treated as an attempted lane change anyway (see the warning that popped up). I assume the blinker didn't cancel because it's a Model S. I have the same behavior if I'm on AP and I activate the turn signal while waiting behind a car at a light - it cancels after a few seconds "Auto lane change not available".

 

[EVRider-FL]

Unlike AP1, HW2+ cars don't show when they're tracking the vehicle in front, so it's hard to know when that's happening.

 

[JayNJ]

I think it may be seeing the worn pavement and tire tracks as lane guidance. That coupled with the car tracking is enough information for it to make the turn. It would be interesting to try it without a car in front.

 

[croman]

Unlike AP1, HW2+ cars don't show when they're tracking the vehicle in front, so it's hard to know when that's happening.

Not true. While not blue, the lighter gray cars are the immediate ones. Darker gray are father ahead. The lead car is the very light gray one right in front of yours. Instead of blue it's light gray.

 

[EVRider-FL]

@croman: What color is the lead car when you're not tracking it?

Update: I think maybe you misunderstood my response. In AP1, if your car was following the car in front because your car couldn't detect lane markers, the car in front was blue. In later versions, if your car follows the car in front because the lane markers aren't detected, there's no visible indication in the UI.

 

[willow_hiller]

@croman: What color is the lead car when you're not tracking it?

Are you saying HW2.5 doesn't highlight tracked cars? That's not correct. All cars on the UI are grey. During the day, tracked vehicles are highlighted in dark grey. During the night they're highlighted in light grey.

 

[EVRider-FL]

@croman: We cross posted above. I think we're using the terms "tracking" differently. See my update to my previously reply.

 

[ewoodrick]

I just about want to call foul here. For some reason the display is out of focus until the turn is complete, then it magically comes back into focus. And because it is out of focus, the blue lines really aren't showing well, but what I see doesn't bend. Actually they don't even exist in front of the car until the camera comes back into focus and viola, they are now well in front of the car.

Feels like the reality has been doctored, or intentionally blurred due to non-disclosure requirements.

 

[EVRider-FL]

I just checked an old and new Model S owner's manual.

The old one says this: "If Autosteer is unable to detect lane markings, the driving lane is determined based on the vehicle you are following. In these situations, the vehicle in front of you is highlighted in blue."

The new one just says this: "If Autosteer is unable to detect lane markings, the driving lane is determined based on the vehicle you are following."

So like I said originally, the OP's car might have following the car in front, but there's no way to tell from the UI.

 

[favo]

I just checked an old and new Model S owner's manual.

The old one says this: "If Autosteer is unable to detect lane markings, the driving lane is determined based on the vehicle you are following. In these situations, the vehicle in front of you is highlighted in blue."

The new one just says this: "If Autosteer is unable to detect lane markings, the driving lane is determined based on the vehicle you are following."

So like I said originally, the OP's car might have following the car in front, but there's no way to tell from the UI.

Well, I don't know about Model S/X, but Model 3 definitely highlights the car in front of you in dark grey (light grey at night), as was previously stated. If that doesn't mean it is tracking that car, I don't know what it does mean. Maybe you are saying this is different if there are no lane lines detected, but I don't think so (have to double-check).

 

[EVRider-FL]

Well, I don't know about Model S/X, but Model 3 definitely highlights the car in front of you in dark grey (light grey at night), as was previously stated. If that doesn't mean it is tracking that car, I don't know what it does mean. Maybe you are saying this is different if there are no lane lines detected, but I don't think so (have to double-check).

The OP was driving a Model S, but it doesn't really matter. I'll try one last time to make my point: When using Autosteer, your car always shows the car in front of you, but doesn't always use that car to help stay in the lane. When your car can't detect lane markers, it will start following the car in front of you (and if that car veers to the side, yours will do the same). My point was that in earlier Model S/X cars, the UI would turn the lead car blue to show when it was following that car, but now the lead car is always grey, so you can't tell when your car using that car to help steer.

 

[BANKWUPT]

I just about want to call foul here. For some reason the display is out of focus until the turn is complete, then it magically comes back into focus. And because it is out of focus, the blue lines really aren't showing well, but what I see doesn't bend. Actually they don't even exist in front of the car until the camera comes back into focus and viola, they are now well in front of the car.

Feels like the reality has been doctored, or intentionally blurred due to non-disclosure requirements.

You might need to up your resolution/quality a bit, the footage hasn't been messed with at all besides sticking all the separate clips together in a single video. Also, are you talking about the first time it made the turn or the second time? My car won't do this in 90% of intersections so I can see why you'd feel the footage was messed with, but I promise you it's not and I'm on consumer firmware (2019.20.4.3).

 

[wcorey]

I posted this video on the teslamotors subreddit yesterday and got some interesting feedback and would like to have a deeper discussion. Some were saying the reason it was able to complete this turn is because it was following the vehicle in front through the intersection, but I never have that happen in other intersections. Usually if there are no guide lines it turns slightly but then just continues straight into the intersection until I get the "red hands." I know AP1 uses the car in front for guidance when it can't see lines, the car turns blue on the display and it follows. But does AP2+ do this as well, just doesn't display anything? That one intersection is the only one I've found where it does it consistently and I won't be going back to that area for a week or so, but I wanted to get feedback from others. What is AP looking for when lines aren't present? Does anyone else have an intersection like this that AP tries to do itself?

This is very similar to a NoA maneuver when a road splits to either go straight (or in this case right) or go left. You signaled to the car to turn left. The road marking said left turn lane. I just looked in the M3 manual and can't find it but at one point I could have sworn I read where if under AS and so many feet from an exit, if you turn on the turn signal the car will take that exit which, conveniently, is what your car did. Do the same thing in the right lane but signal right turn and I bet it will turn right. I doubt it had anything to do with the car in front as going straight was not an option, it had to turn and you were in the left turn only lane. Again, try the right lane w/no car in front to follow.

The other thing I just noticed...it wasn't following the car in front as you are in a different lane.

 

[EVRider-FL]

The other thing I just noticed...it wasn't following the car in front as you are in a different lane.

The car in front was in the same lane until after it made the turn, in both cases.

 

[wcorey]

The car in front was in the same lane until after it made the turn, in both cases.

There was only one lane but my point was if it was 'following' the other car it would have 'followed' it to the lane on the right, not decided to take the left lane. Again, try it in the right lane for right turn only and no car in front, put the right blinker on and I bet it will turn right.

 

[EVRider-FL]

There was only one lane but my point was if it was 'following' the other car it would have 'followed' it to the lane on the right, not decided to take the left lane. Again, try it in the right lane for right turn only and no car in front, put the right blinker on and I bet it will turn right.

If you look at the first left turn carefully, you'll see that after the turn, the car starts to move into the same lane as the car in front but then moves back into the left lane once the lane markers are detected. The car will only follow the car in front when it can't detect lane markers.

Without the "blue car" visual cue that AP1 provided, it's hard to know if the OP's car was following the car in front, which is the point I was trying to make earlier.