AP1 -> AP3 (Theoretical )

[BrownOuttaSpec]

So let just have a theoretical discussion that a AP1 to AP3 upgrade would be possible and Tesla allowed it much like the "infotainment Upgrade" from MCU1 to MCU2. What all would be involved? It seems like the hardest part of controlling the car (Doing the driving, turning, acceleration/brakes,etc) is already there on AP1 cars so what else would be needed?

• AP1 -> AP3 Computer swap
• New Front Camera triple camera setup
• Windshield to accommodate the new triple camera setup
• Side fender cameras (triangle turn signal part)
• Door Pillar camera (Probably the hardest part since it would require a new door pillar)

Anything else that is stopping the upgrade from being done? Different front RADAR or sensors? With Tesla service centers now doing glass replacements I could see them potentially doing AP upgrades in 2-3 years for $10k and by then hopefully we have better FSD cars and laws that it would be practical to spend that kind of money that you can actually get benefit from. Then in 5-7 years see a battery swap with a "million mile battery" and a 2012-2016 Tesla would be good for the next 30 years (aluminum fame and panels wont rust, do a "infotainment upgrade 2.0" in a couple of years so you can watch holographic movies, etc.).

 

[glide]

LOL @ million mile battery

anything is possible but the retrofit you are speaking of would cost more than just buying a new car. Not worth it.

 

[thewishmaster]

Don't forget all the miscellaneous wiring and possibly the whatever changes required for mounting an AP computer in the glovebox area.

 

[vickh]

I actually asked this question when SA/delivery manager accidentally emailed me saying my 2016 CPO S had AP 2.5, but really was AP1

Was told "impossible to fix" and sorry, so I refused delivery and bought the 3 to be relatively future proof for the same price.

 

[TonyT]

So let just have a theoretical discussion that a AP1 to AP3 upgrade would be possible and Tesla allowed it much like the "infotainment Upgrade" from MCU1 to MCU2. What all would be involved? It seems like the hardest part of controlling the car (Doing the driving, turning, acceleration/brakes,etc) is already there on AP1 cars so what else would be needed?

• AP1 -> AP3 Computer swap
• New Front Camera triple camera setup
• Windshield to accommodate the new triple camera setup
• Side fender cameras (triangle turn signal part)
• Door Pillar camera (Probably the hardest part since it would require a new door pillar)

Anything else that is stopping the upgrade from being done? Different front RADAR or sensors? With Tesla service centers now doing glass replacements I could see them potentially doing AP upgrades in 2-3 years for $10k and by then hopefully we have better FSD cars and laws that it would be practical to spend that kind of money that you can actually get benefit from. Then in 5-7 years see a battery swap with a "million mile battery" and a 2012-2016 Tesla would be good for the next 30 years (aluminum fame and panels wont rust, do a "infotainment upgrade 2.0" in a couple of years so you can watch holographic movies, etc.).

Actually the door pillar swap will be easy compared to the power steering rack swap, harness change, and the rear brake change. Yes you will also need the new radar, and parking sensors.

 

[cucubits]

Before all the other questions like costs and if possible at all, let me ask why in the first place would you want to do this? For now, FSD is nowhere on the horizon and AP1 works just as well, arguably even better in some scenarios (way less phantom braking), has signal stalk initiated lane change, auto parking and simple summon.

If, and that's a big if, this upgrade would be offered for a cost, for now I see zero reasons to pay for it. It's a relatively small window of cars which would apply for this (2014 - 2016) so in no way R&D would make sense for Tesla to offer this.

Much much simpler is to sell the old S and get a newer one, if you want AP2> that badly.

 

[dgatwood]

Actually the door pillar swap will be easy compared to the power steering rack swap, harness change, and the rear brake change. Yes you will also need the new radar, and parking sensors.

AP1 and HW2 use functionally identical Bosch RADAR hardware (MRRevo14). The only change prior to HW2.5 was the removal of the heater when they moved it so that it was no longer exposed to the elements.

I'm pretty sure the steering rack on HW1 Model S (Bosch 102783100E) is also used for HW2 Model X, so you probably wouldn't need to change out the rack, either.

I highly doubt the brakes would need to change, either,

So basically, I'd expect it to involve adding all the missing cameras, upgrading the ultrasonic sensors, and a whole lot of wiring.

 

[TonyT]

AP1 and HW2 use functionally identical Bosch RADAR hardware (MRRevo14). The only change prior to HW2.5 was the removal of the heater when they moved it so that it was no longer exposed to the elements.

I'm pretty sure the steering rack on HW1 Model S (Bosch 102783100E) is also used for HW2 Model X, so you probably wouldn't need to change out the rack, either.

I highly doubt the brakes would need to change, either,

So basically, I'd expect it to involve adding all the missing cameras, upgrading the ultrasonic sensors, and a whole lot of wiring.

They may be functionally same, but there are differences. We also adopt Tesla's radar for OpenPilot use and there are enough difference we only use the early ones since we have limited manpower to decode the newer ones to be useful for us.

Your free to doubt the brake change, and you are right, you can build custom support for a configuration that does not exist. @wk057 even enabled Ludicrous on a RWD P car. But there are no AP2+ cars that have the 2 piece rear brake. But such a car would likely have to have customized changes every update/

 

[dgatwood]

They may be functionally same, but there are differences. We also adopt Tesla's radar for OpenPilot use and there are enough difference we only use the early ones since we have limited manpower to decode the newer ones to be useful for us.

Are you sure? Everything I've read says that they used the exact same model of RADAR in HW1 and HW2, and that it only changed when HW2.5 was introduced. The OpenPilot tinkerer page says the same:

Tesla Bosch Radar - Tinkla: Tinkering with Tesla

So as soon as Tesla supports upgrading HW2 cars to HW3, then the RADAR in HW1 will be entirely adequate for FSD.

Your free to doubt the brake change, and you are right, you can build custom support for a configuration that does not exist. @wk057 even enabled Ludicrous on a RWD P car. But there are no AP2+ cars that have the 2 piece rear brake. But such a car would likely have to have customized changes every update/

Actually, performance Model S cars still use a dual brake design, as do all Model X cars, regardless of model (at least through 2019).

 

[TonyT]

Are you sure? Everything I've read says that they used the exact same model of RADAR in HW1 and HW2, and that it only changed when HW2.5 was introduced. The OpenPilot tinkerer page says the same:

Tesla Bosch Radar - Tinkla: Tinkering with Tesla

So as soon as Tesla supports upgrading HW2 cars to HW3, then the RADAR in HW1 will be entirely adequate for FSD.



Actually, performance Model S cars still use a dual brake design, as do all Model X cars, regardless of model (at least through 2019).

Oh, I think the ones we are having issue with are ap2.5 They were pulled from recent cars, and we didn't capture the part number before installed because at first they appeared to work. Have not had time to pull the bumper off to look at it again.

And wow, yeah I remember hearing some were non Brembo, so guess all the P cars are still dual Brembo rears. Thanks!

 

[dgatwood]

And wow, yeah I remember hearing some were non Brembo, so guess all the P cars are still dual Brembo rears. Thanks!

Not sure if they still use the same manufacturer, but they definitely sell Brembo setups for current cars, so they must still be plug-and-play with the current computers.

 

[tkizzy]

Just want to keep this thread alive. As things stabilize for Tesla, it would be an amazing gesture to upgrade with additional cameras etc for FSD. Very good longevity PR, methinks.

 

[tkizzy]

Also, ap doesn’t show up as an available upgrade for us in an ap1 85d

 

[alangrig]

So let just have a theoretical discussion that a AP1 to AP3 upgrade would be possible and Tesla allowed it much like the "infotainment Upgrade" from MCU1 to MCU2. What all would be involved? It seems like the hardest part of controlling the car (Doing the driving, turning, acceleration/brakes,etc) is already there on AP1 cars so what else would be needed?

• AP1 -> AP3 Computer swap
• New Front Camera triple camera setup
• Windshield to accommodate the new triple camera setup
• Side fender cameras (triangle turn signal part)
• Door Pillar camera (Probably the hardest part since it would require a new door pillar)

Anything else that is stopping the upgrade from being done? Different front RADAR or sensors? With Tesla service centers now doing glass replacements I could see them potentially doing AP upgrades in 2-3 years for $10k and by then hopefully we have better FSD cars and laws that it would be practical to spend that kind of money that you can actually get benefit from. Then in 5-7 years see a battery swap with a "million mile battery" and a 2012-2016 Tesla would be good for the next 30 years (aluminum fame and panels wont rust, do a "infotainment upgrade 2.0" in a couple of years so you can watch holographic movies, etc.).

Talked to local Tesla indie, who rebuilds USA Tesla’s to EU one. It is possible to retrofit AP2 or AP3.
1. B pillars to be replaced with cameras - easy part
2. Side repeaters to be replaced with cameras - easy part
3. Inline triple camera - should be replaced windshield for the installation of inline triple camera
4. Front radar and sensors stay the same
5. Should be replaced AP module from first generation to the third one in the glovebox
6. Wiring - no wiring is preinstalled. It is easy for B pillars, side repeaters. For the windshield, I have been figuring out what wiring should reinstalled.

In any case, I’ve been informed that it is very recommend to upgrade to MCU2 before doing any retrofit.

 

[TonyT]

Talked to local Tesla indie, who rebuilds USA Tesla’s to EU one. It is possible to retrofit AP2 or AP3.
1. B pillars to be replaced with cameras - easy part
2. Side repeaters to be replaced with cameras - easy part
3. Inline triple camera - should be replaced windshield for the installation of inline triple camera
4. Front radar and sensors stay the same
5. Should be replaced AP module from first generation to the third one in the glovebox
6. Wiring - no wiring is preinstalled. It is easy for B pillars, side repeaters. For the windshield, I have been figuring out what wiring should reinstalled.

In any case, I’ve been informed that it is very recommend to upgrade to MCU2 before doing any retrofit.

You would want to upgrade to AP3 before you go mcu2, the AP config would likely be locked down in mcu2, mcu1 should be much easier, however many people may also run into issue reconfigure in mcu1.

Not totally sure about keeping radar and sensors, you do need new park assist ecu, pretty sure new radar is also needed.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Talked to local Tesla indie, who rebuilds USA Tesla’s to EU one. It is possible to retrofit AP2 or AP3.
1. B pillars to be replaced with cameras - easy part
2. Side repeaters to be replaced with cameras - easy part
3. Inline triple camera - should be replaced windshield for the installation of inline triple camera
4. Front radar and sensors stay the same
5. Should be replaced AP module from first generation to the third one in the glovebox
6. Wiring - no wiring is preinstalled. It is easy for B pillars, side repeaters. For the windshield, I have been figuring out what wiring should reinstalled.

In any case, I’ve been informed that it is very recommend to upgrade to MCU2 before doing any retrofit.

Replacing the sensors is the easy part. What nobody mentions here (and I am certain @TonyT is aware) are the power and cooling changes needed. Where do you get the power for the computer? Which distribution box? Can it support the load? If not, do you need to add a separate circuit? Similarly, how do you cool the computer? Is there space for the fans and ductwork? Would you need to essentially install an AP2+ dash?

 

[alangrig]

You would want to upgrade to AP3 before you go mcu2, the AP config would likely be locked down in mcu2, mcu1 should be much easier, however many people may also run into issue reconfigure in mcu1.

Not totally sure about keeping radar and sensors, you do need new park assist ecu, pretty sure new radar is also needed.

Thank you! Park assist ecu stays the same for production year 2016-2019.
The same applies for radar: 1057551-00-B

 

[TonyT]

Replacing the sensors is the easy part. What nobody mentions here (and I am certain @TonyT is aware) are the power and cooling changes needed. Where do you get the power for the computer? Which distribution box? Can it support the load? If not, do you need to add a separate circuit? Similarly, how do you cool the computer? Is there space for the fans and ductwork? Would you need to essentially install an AP2+ dash?

You will need to run power or upgrade to a harness that has all the connections, and may need to upgrade the fuse box. Cooling should not be an issue, ap3 is air cooled. I think the occupants would have issue with temp before the ap3 computer does.

 

[alangrig]

So let just have a theoretical discussion that a AP1 to AP3 upgrade would be possible and Tesla allowed it much like the "infotainment Upgrade" from MCU1 to MCU2. What all would be involved? It seems like the hardest part of controlling the car (Doing the driving, turning, acceleration/brakes,etc) is already there on AP1 cars so what else would be needed?

• AP1 -> AP3 Computer swap
• New Front Camera triple camera setup
• Windshield to accommodate the new triple camera setup
• Side fender cameras (triangle turn signal part)
• Door Pillar camera (Probably the hardest part since it would require a new door pillar)

Anything else that is stopping the upgrade from being done? Different front RADAR or sensors? With Tesla service centers now doing glass replacements I could see them potentially doing AP upgrades in 2-3 years for $10k and by then hopefully we have better FSD cars and laws that it would be practical to spend that kind of money that you can actually get benefit from. Then in 5-7 years see a battery swap with a "million mile battery" and a 2012-2016 Tesla would be good for the next 30 years (aluminum fame and panels wont rust, do a "infotainment upgrade 2.0" in a couple of years so you can watch holographic movies, etc.).

Discussed with different third parties.
Summary: upgrade is possible from AP1 to AP2.5 or AP3.0 (the latter is valid only when FSD is released)
The following should be done (prices are approximate):

1. Retrofit: Right B Pillar Trim with Cameras (LH & RH & Left) - €300 (used)
   
2. Retrofit: MS/ MX LAMP ASY, SIDE REPEATER with cameras (LH & RH) - €200 (used)
3. Retrofit: MX Windshield for triple camera - €1700 (new)
4. Retrofit: INLINE TRIPLE CAM, S/X/3 - €300 (used)
5. Retrofit: AP2.5 ECU Module - €400 (used)
6. Wiring: €200 (used)
7. Fusebox: €200 (used)
8. Labor cost: €1500
   
9. Option: MCU2 - €1500 (new)

Total with MCU1: €4800
Total with MCU2: €6300

No changes for radar and sensors.
Glovebox is the same as 2017/2019 production year.
No additional cooling is required for AP ecu module.
If a car is on basic warranty, all replaced parts will be out of warranty, the rest stays under warranty.

 

[jcpetit]

Thank you for this great work.
My EV garage was also mentioning a similar cost but included the Windshield change for the Model S (AP1 July 2016)
Are you sure that the windshield stays the same?
Also, what about the FSD licence? Do we need to add $10K US for this option? Unless Tesla offers an upgrade from "Autopilot with convenience features" to FSD as they offer from "Enhanced Autopilot" to FSD.