AP1 parity "by next month" according to Musk...

[stopcrazypp]

Even your google references do not support your conclusion. The one literally says by and before are synonyms. Goggle 'definition of by'

If I'm working on a project and say I need something by Weds and someone gives it to me ON weds the it is LATE. I want it BY weds so I can work on it ON weds not after.

Go ahead and be the faux grammar nazi all you want. I'm done with this ridiculous discussion. It really doesn't matter.

Look at the IRS example, that is a practical example, rather than discussing the technicalities.

Another practical example on voting age (given the recent election):
"Are 18 years old on or before Election Day
You can register to vote before you turn 18 if you will be 18 by Election Day. Check your state’s registration age requirements."
Register to Vote and Confirm or Change Registration | USA.gov

More examples, but from our state government instead:
"Voter Registration Online or Postmark by March 20, 2017"
"Vote-by-Mail Ballot Request Must arrive by March 28, 2017"
Election Dates and Resources | California Secretary of State
What it actually means:
"Your registration must be postmarked or submitted electronically no later than: March 20, 2017"
Voter Registration | California Secretary of State to Register to Vote
"Last day to apply for a vote-by-mail ballot by mail March 28, 2017"
Vote By Mail | California Secretary of State

I was lazy to quote the sources in my google links, but I will do so in this case, just for clarity

Here's Rachel from the Grammar Exchange:
"Yes, correct. "Before eight o'clock" does not include "eight o'clock," but "by eight o'clock" implies that exactly at eight o'clock would be acceptable."
Difference between "by" and "before" - Topic

"In other words, using by is inclusive, it means do this on any day up to and including the day specified. Using before is non inclusive, it means that I expect it to be done when I arrive on Tuesday morning."
"Before date" versus "by date"

"If you want to split hairs (and I don't think anyone would in this particular case), "by" is inclusive, meaning up to and including (4:30), whereas "before" is not (4:29:59)."
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-by-and-before-in-the-following-sentence

"As a preposition of time “by” means “on or before”."
The difference between “by” and “until”

You can dismiss the other google results, but in practical use by the US government and my local state government, "by" clearly does not mean the same as "before", but rather "on or before" or "no later than".

Elon was wrong about the dec/Jan deadlines and he'll be wrong about this one whether it's the end of Feb or March. The software will still not be at AP1 parity.

This part I agree. Elon saying something and being late is very common. But the current issue is interpreting what he actually said in the first place before we can tell if he is actually late. You say he would be late if he does provide the features during March, I say he would not be late. I guess at this point we can only agree to disagree.

 

[JRD1]

Look at the IRS example, that is a practical example, rather than discussing the technicalities.

Another practical example on voting age (given the recent election):
"Are 18 years old on or before Election Day
You can register to vote before you turn 18 if you will be 18 by Election Day. Check your state’s registration age requirements."
Register to Vote and Confirm or Change Registration | USA.gov

More examples, but from our state government instead:
"Voter Registration Online or Postmark by March 20, 2017"
"Vote-by-Mail Ballot Request Must arrive by March 28, 2017"
Election Dates and Resources | California Secretary of State
What it actually means:
"Your registration must be postmarked or submitted electronically no later than: March 20, 2017"
Voter Registration | California Secretary of State to Register to Vote
"Last day to apply for a vote-by-mail ballot by mail March 28, 2017"
Vote By Mail | California Secretary of State

I was lazy to quote the sources in my google links, but I will do so in this case, just for clarity

Here's Rachel from the Grammar Exchange:
"Yes, correct. "Before eight o'clock" does not include "eight o'clock," but "by eight o'clock" implies that exactly at eight o'clock would be acceptable."
Difference between "by" and "before" - Topic

"In other words, using by is inclusive, it means do this on any day up to and including the day specified. Using before is non inclusive, it means that I expect it to be done when I arrive on Tuesday morning."
"Before date" versus "by date"

"If you want to split hairs (and I don't think anyone would in this particular case), "by" is inclusive, meaning up to and including (4:30), whereas "before" is not (4:29:59)."
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-by-and-before-in-the-following-sentence

"As a preposition of time “by” means “on or before”."
The difference between “by” and “until”

You can dismiss the other google results, but in practical use by the US government and my local state government, "by" clearly does not mean the same as "before", but rather "on or before" or "no later than".


This part I agree. Elon saying something and being late is very common. But the current issue is interpreting what he actually said in the first place before we can tell if he is actually late. You say he would be late if he does provide the features during March, I say he would not be late. I guess at this point we can only agree to disagree.

Ok the next time someone tells me they need to leave by 5pm I'll just tell them that's fine they can leave at 5:59 since 'by' is inclusive and includes all of the 5 o'clock hour.

 

[182RG]

But the current issue is interpreting what he actually said in the first place before we can tell if he is actually late. You say he would be late if he does provide the features during March, I say he would not be late. I guess at this point we can only agree to disagree.

I put a event in my calendar to come back and rehash this all over again April 1. That should give you and others time to pre-build the next set of semantics-based excuses. The level of ridiculous white-washing over this is incredibly amusing.

 

[disagree]

I put a event in my calendar to come back and rehash this all over again April 1. That should give you and others time to pre-build the next set of semantics-based excuses. The level of ridiculous white-washing over this is incredibly amusing.

On the one hand, the critics are being called fools for falling for the weasel words; on the other hand, a bunch of people are saying they listen to a weasel. We all lose.

 

[Pollux]

I've been following the company since late '12 / early '13 and can't recall anything being delivered on-time. Maybe someone else can contribute examples where Tesla delivered something when they said they would.

It mostly never bothered me because most promises were for physical objects and you didn't pay for them until the physical object arrived. (Exceptions: reservations, especially founder's model reservations.)

But now we are pre-paying for software that emerges when it damned well pleases and with further restrictions about being subject to validation and regulatory approval.

I would up splitting the difference and pre-paying for EAP but not for Full Self-Driving Capability. I pre-paid EAP because, well, I'm an idiot and I believed what I heard about getting back to AP1 parity in December. Double idiot because I figured it'd happen even before the end of December. Well, that's my bad; after 4 years, I sure as heck can't say I didn't know the beast I was dealing with.

That said: it'd be nice to have a timeline for whatever greatness is being promised for EAP / AP2, for this self-interested P100D Dec '16 purchaser. Right now, we're just guessing about when we'll get AP1 parity.

The Tesla website values the EAP option at $74/month if purchased via loan (apparently from Alliant). When do accounting issues kick in re selling and collecting income on a feature not yet available? (Particularly acute issue if you've leased the vehicle.)

Perhaps Tesla should shift to a model where you sign up for a feature with a credit card, and then pay for it when it finally becomes available and as you use it. Hard to roll that up into today's model of an auto loan, so maybe Tesla needs to innovate there, too.

Alan

 

[Whitmarsh]

Nope. "By" is inclusive of the described item. If you say "be here by 12 pm" that means even if you arrive exactly on 12:00 you are not late.

However, if you say "be here before 12:00" and you get there exactly at 12:00, you are technically late because you didn't get there before 12:00.

Of course that then goes to the second ambiguity, which is time scale you care about before it is considered late. By using "12:00" you imply your time scale is minutes. So 12:01 is late, but 12:00:01 is not. If it was 12:00:00 then it is seconds, so 12:00:01 is now late.

This concept extends to using larger time scales. For example, if I say "be here by tomorrow" it does not mean before 0:00 tomorrow (or midnight today), but anytime tomorrow (or for deadlines, usually before closing time or last processing time on the given day).

So if I say "be here by March" it can be inclusive of the entire month (or at minimum includes the entire first day of March if the time scale is days). In no interpretation would it mean the same as "before March".

If we're going to get into this sort of thing, we ought to look at the term 12pm (12 post meridiem); since the meridium is 12 noon, how can 12 (noon) be post (after) meridiem? 12 noon is what we should say, surely? 12am is all right, I suppose, since it is indeed 12 hours ante meridiem. But the whole thing would be simpler - and without confusion, which is probably why the military use it - if we all used the 24-hour clock, in which 12am (midnight) is 00:00 and 12 noon is 12:00.

 

[dhanson865]

Is a Mars month different than an Earth month?

Yes, seasons are out of phase, days have a different length, months are an arbitrary concept just dividing the year so that can be the same or different as you please (our month is loosely based on lunar cycle but it doesn't match so its still arbitrary). Years are a different length that is based on the size of the red circle vs the blue circle.

 

[dhanson865]

Yes. Mars' orbit is 50% longer I believe.

The orbit decides how long the year is. Months are a human invention*. You can use 12 months or 10 months or no months and the length of the year doesn't change.

* Our month is loosely based on lunar cycle but it doesn't match so its still arbitrary.

 

[lunitiks]

* Our month is loosely based on lunar cycle but it doesn't match so its still arbitrary.

Yes, but talking about "months" on a planet with two moons makes the concept even more of an "invention" I think

 

[croman]

One can certainly assume we will apportion each Martian year into bigger units than Sols. Apparently I was wrong anyways because Mars' orbit is almost twice as long as ours. It is 50% further from the sun. I was confused. Anyways I agree.

Yes, but talking about "months" on a planet with two moons makes the concept even more of an "invention" I think

 

[stopcrazypp]

Ok the next time someone tells me they need to leave by 5pm I'll just tell them that's fine they can leave at 5:59 since 'by' is inclusive and includes all of the 5 o'clock hour.

I already touched on this example, and why when talking about hours and minutes people tend to use it interchangeably with "before".

I'll put it more clearly:
"by 5pm" = "at or before 5pm"

However, what does "at 5pm" mean? Does 17:00:00:59, 17:00:59, 17:01, or 17:59 count? Usually it is before the first minute passes and sometimes the first second (a digital clock still shows 5:00 pm at 17:00:59; someone using an analog clock may care about seconds, so 17:00:59 may not count).

The major difference is that if they said they need to leave "before 5pm", as soon as the clock turns 5pm, they are late, while this is not the case for "by 5pm". Hopefully this makes the differences clear.

For days:
"by Saturday" = "on or before Saturday"
But what does "on Saturday" mean? Does 1am Saturday still count? Usually it does, and many times the whole day counts (or before closing time).

For months:
"by March" = "in or before March"
But what does "in March" mean? Does March 2nd still count? Usually it does, and many times the whole month counts.

 

[JRD1]

I already touched on this example, and why when talking about hours and minutes people tend to use it interchangeably with "before".

I'll put it more clearly:
"by 5pm" = "at or before 5pm"

However, what does "at 5pm" mean? Does 17:00:00:59, 17:00:59, 17:01, or 17:59 count? Usually it is before the first minute passes and sometimes the first second (a digital clock still shows 5:00 pm at 17:00:59; someone using an analog clock may care about seconds, so 17:00:59 may not count).

The major difference is that if they said they need to leave "before 5pm", as soon as the clock turns 5pm, they are late, while this is not the case for "by 5pm". Hopefully this makes the differences clear.

For days:
"by Saturday" = "on or before Saturday"
But what does "on Saturday" mean? Does 1am Saturday still count? Usually it does, and many times the whole day counts (or before closing time).

For months:
"by March" = "in or before March"
But what does "in March" mean? Does March 2nd still count? Usually it does, and many times the whole month counts.

You must be tremendous fun at parties.

/thread unsubscribed so feel free to OCD it to death

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Assuming they don't run into delays, which they always do...

 

[calisnow]

Elon is out accomplishing something while you clowns post messages interpreting his tweets like they're the Talmud. Who's the time waster - Elon or you guys?

 

[Drone Flyer]

I was hoping for AP 1 parity with AP 2 at the end of the month!
Stop sign and traffic light reading capability would be a great feature on AP 1!

 

[dmode]

Did I just read three pages on correct usage of "by" ?

 

[_jal_]

Did I just read three pages on correct usage of "by" ?

What's a page? How long is a page? And do you count a page as a page only if it's full or can it be a page if it's only partially full?

Reminds me of the exercise: is tomorrow next Saturday or this Saturday? It's the next Saturday, but it's the Saturday of this week.

 

[boonedocks]

Did I just read three pages on correct usage of "by" ?

"Alternate Facts"

Yes you did.
I see "follow a thread" how do you make one not even show up!! Like this useless one Lol lol

 

[HX_Guy]

What's a page? How long is a page? And do you count a page as a page only if it's full or can it be a page if it's only partially full?

Reminds me of the exercise: is tomorrow next Saturday or this Saturday? It's the next Saturday, but it's the Saturday of this week.

Next Saturday is clearly next week Saturday, vs this Saturday would be the first upcoming password.

 

[lunitiks]