TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

AP1 Promises That Never Came To Be

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Mike K, Oct 23, 2016.

Tags:
  1. gabeincal

    gabeincal Enjoying Napa life the electric way

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    Napa, CA, USA
    How much profit do you think Tesla will have on a Model 3..? I suspect no more than 5-7k so it's hardly a cash cow...
     
  2. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,552
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Really hard to say, industry standard is around 12% but the S is way higher at over 20%. At an average expected price of 42,000USD that's 5-8k per car. But the kicker is volume, half a million preorders times 5-8k adds up real quick.
     
  3. eloder

    eloder Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages:
    1,168
    Location:
    Ohio, USA
    Until Tesla gives you a promised date of delivery of said features, or until Tesla stops updating their cars, they have not breached any sort of agreement or promise with you. This also goes for AP1 (and honestly, the data collected by AP2 could ver easily allow AP1 to detect stop signs by reading GPS data on a map. Like all other AP1 features it's not fully autonomous so it is no fault of Tesla if it misses a stop sign not found in the AP2 data, and a driver doesn't react).

    "Deliver within the timeline and quality expected of a certain critic on the Tesla forums " is not grounds for a refund nor listed on the website. If it is, please let me know so that I may correct my error. Why not save the headache and simply not buy the feature until it works to your expectation? By buying it upfront, you're acknowledging that the money you're spending now, and the feature you're spending now, is worthwhile. If the feature is not worth the money you're spending now, then don't buy it.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. gabeincal

    gabeincal Enjoying Napa life the electric way

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2016
    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    Napa, CA, USA
    I doubt this stands true. I'm no attorney but this, if true, would enable corporations to go wild...
     
  5. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,552
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    They did give a time line "within the coming months" (not years, a "reasonable person" would expect that to be less than 2 years as nobody describes time periods longer than 2 years in terms of months.)
    Additionally, from a legal stand point, the courts would weigh the expected lifetime of a vehicle, (those with leases would have a great argument that the lease period is that lifetime).

    It's clear that Tesla has not delivered what they promised in the time they promised to do so.
     
    • Like x 4
  6. msnow

    msnow Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Messages:
    4,971
    Location:
    SoCal
    As a point of reference; Tesla started selling AP in the Fall of 2014 and other than TACC didn't deliver AP with autosteer in the US until mid-October 2015.
     
    • Informative x 2
  7. diamond.g

    diamond.g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,963
    Location:
    Moyock, NC
    I guess the question for court purposes (in the US at least) is what was on the paperwork that was signed? If they listed specific AP features on the paperwork and those feature do not work seems like a slam dunk for a refund of the feature price to me. Is someone able to post exactly how the feature is listed on the signed paperwork?
     
  8. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,552
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Paperwork simply says "tech package with autopilot"
    So you'd be left to what Tesla advertised "autopilot" to mean, which would be the combination of their website, public blog posts, statements at the "D" event, investor calls, media interviews, etc.
     
    • Informative x 1
  9. diamond.g

    diamond.g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,963
    Location:
    Moyock, NC
    Well that is incredibly vague.
     
  10. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    9,041
    Location:
    Oregon
    You would also be left with splitting the value of that package out into what was and wasn't delivered.
     
  11. diamond.g

    diamond.g Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,963
    Location:
    Moyock, NC
    I wonder if Tesla would come back and say AutoPilot is AutoSteer & TACC. Ignoring the ultrasonics for lane change, and sign reading.
     
  12. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,552
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    They don't have the choice to define it in the future because they already defined it in the past. They would be held to what they specifically advertised it to be.
     
    • Informative x 1
    • Like x 1
  13. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,552
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    As mentioned previously though, the bigger issue is if they're willing to do a partial refund, or insist on a full refund for a full removal of the feature.
    Personally I expect they'd insist on the latter knowing that few people would accept that loss of functionality.
     
    • Informative x 1
  14. Gwgan

    Gwgan Almost a wagon

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages:
    2,209
    Location:
    Maine
    After ordering my X I often imagined setting up a scene with a buddy driver when dropping off my lease at the dealer and saying, "no thanks, I already have another car", and having it come around the corner without a driver (in the private) lot to pick me up. By the time I was sealing the deal on the X it was clear that wasn't going to happen. Maybe AP1 will be updated to include private lot summoning but let's just say I would not prepay for advanced AP2 levels if I were ordering today.
     
    • Like x 1
  15. RocketGoBoom

    RocketGoBoom Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    USA
    #75 RocketGoBoom, Oct 25, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
    Tesla often gives refunds for items that that promised that end up being massively delayed way longer than is reasonable. Example of the carbon fiber T tops for the Tesla Roadster. It was a $5,000 option I paid for before delivery. It still wasn't available 6 months after delivery, so I asked for a $5,000 refund. Tesla agreed and sent me a check via Fedex. It was really that simple

    Your standard in not even remotely what we are talking about.

    Some of the features originally listed as AP1 features, and sold as AP1 features, now appear to require AP2 and the Enhanced features for $5,000. So owners with an AP1 Model S or Model X, which cannot receive AP2 or the Enhanced features, are rightfully upset having paid for AP1 with a certain set of promised features.

    That is exactly what many of us with upcoming deliveries have already decided. Enhanced features look reasonable. Fully autonomous driving is a $3,000 risk with AP2.

    I am an experienced Tesla owner (Roadster, 2013 Model S) Having learned how Tesla operates, take screenshots now just in case Tesla moves the goal posts on the features included with Enhanced AP.

    The technology is amazing, but Tesla plays fast and loose with their promises and timelines. If you call them on it, they will do the right thing. The refund I got on the Roadster carbon fiber top gave me a great deal of confidence that Tesla will do the right thing if they cannot deliver.
     
    • Like x 1
  16. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Messages:
    17,185
    I don't "hold" mine. I do a full press until it locks on. Then I disengage after the transition is complete. Just like I do for manual changes. You hold it the whole time?
     
  17. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,729
    Location:
    Suffolk, UK
    I do, because if I change my mind (admittedly that's rare) and the car hasn't moved right across it will change back to staying in lane - I just have to let-go, rather than do the extra step of uncancel the stalk, or jerk the steering wheel. I have the indicator hand on the wheel anyway, so it's not a problem (as I perceive it).
     
  18. zambono

    zambono Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    1,127
    Location:
    DC
    Like you said how can AEB allow for contact with a vehicle one is following under 35 mph, or stop and go traffic where most of these incidents would happen. Horrible implementation thus far, if I can get the warning in time then immediately after it should apply AEB if I am not quick to react.
     
  19. zambono

    zambono Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2016
    Messages:
    1,127
    Location:
    DC
    changing lanes is much quicker and smoother in 8
     
    • Like x 1
  20. WannabeOwner

    WannabeOwner Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,729
    Location:
    Suffolk, UK
    Can't say that I've noticed much difference. I had a lot of instances (in 7.1) where it never changed lanes, or took a long time (embarrassing if there were cars behind etc.), and initially with 8.0 I thought it was a lot better ... but since then I've had plenty of "failure / slow to change lanes" so I'm no longer so sure.

    When it does change lanes it does so well, and speeds up when appropriate etc. (but it had started doing that under 7.1 ... can't exactly remember in which sub-version that started to happen, so again I'm having difficulty saying it is improved).

    A lot seems variable from one person to the next. Some of it may be subjective, of course, but to pick one example plenty of people say they have hand-on-wheel and get nagged all the time, and others have hand-on-wheel and never get nagged (I'm one of the these). Seems bizarre to me, I would have expected a computer to be same-every-time ...
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC