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AP1 Promises That Never Came To Be

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I think this is their plan. They need lots and lots of cash to execute on their Model 3 plans and they need more and more Model S sales to generate that cash. Worst case for Tesla is that they have an interest free loan from you. If they can't execute then they refund your money. They only need the capital until 2018 when lots of cash starts rolling in from the Model 3 anyhow.

How much profit do you think Tesla will have on a Model 3..? I suspect no more than 5-7k so it's hardly a cash cow...
 
We have consumer protection laws in this country. If Tesla is charging people $3,000 for all of the FSDC features listed online, then they have to deliver on it or provide a refund. It is really that simple.

Some people are very forgiving and give Tesla a pass on timelines and a lot of other issues. A lot of people probably won't demand a $3,000 refund. But those that do, will quietly be provided a refund if AP 2 fails to deliver as "promised". It AP 2 ends up only being capable of the features in Enhanced AP, then I can assure you that Tesla will be forking over $3,000 to owners that complain up the chain at Tesla.

This isn't even a close call. Tesla is not going to burn bridges with customers over $3,000 if FSDC becomes an issue. They provided a list of features, priced it at $3,000 and sold it. They either deliver or provide the refund. Very simple.

Until Tesla gives you a promised date of delivery of said features, or until Tesla stops updating their cars, they have not breached any sort of agreement or promise with you. This also goes for AP1 (and honestly, the data collected by AP2 could ver easily allow AP1 to detect stop signs by reading GPS data on a map. Like all other AP1 features it's not fully autonomous so it is no fault of Tesla if it misses a stop sign not found in the AP2 data, and a driver doesn't react).

"Deliver within the timeline and quality expected of a certain critic on the Tesla forums " is not grounds for a refund nor listed on the website. If it is, please let me know so that I may correct my error. Why not save the headache and simply not buy the feature until it works to your expectation? By buying it upfront, you're acknowledging that the money you're spending now, and the feature you're spending now, is worthwhile. If the feature is not worth the money you're spending now, then don't buy it.
 
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They did give a time line "within the coming months" (not years, a "reasonable person" would expect that to be less than 2 years as nobody describes time periods longer than 2 years in terms of months.)
Additionally, from a legal stand point, the courts would weigh the expected lifetime of a vehicle, (those with leases would have a great argument that the lease period is that lifetime).

It's clear that Tesla has not delivered what they promised in the time they promised to do so.
 
They did give a time line "within the coming months" (not years, a "reasonable person" would expect that to be less than 2 years as nobody describes time periods longer than 2 years in terms of months.)
Additionally, from a legal stand point, the courts would weigh the expected lifetime of a vehicle, (those with leases would have a great argument that the lease period is that lifetime).

It's clear that Tesla has not delivered what they promised in the time they promised to do so.
I guess the question for court purposes (in the US at least) is what was on the paperwork that was signed? If they listed specific AP features on the paperwork and those feature do not work seems like a slam dunk for a refund of the feature price to me. Is someone able to post exactly how the feature is listed on the signed paperwork?
 
Paperwork simply says "tech package with autopilot"
So you'd be left to what Tesla advertised "autopilot" to mean, which would be the combination of their website, public blog posts, statements at the "D" event, investor calls, media interviews, etc.

You would also be left with splitting the value of that package out into what was and wasn't delivered.
 
After ordering my X I often imagined setting up a scene with a buddy driver when dropping off my lease at the dealer and saying, "no thanks, I already have another car", and having it come around the corner without a driver (in the private) lot to pick me up. By the time I was sealing the deal on the X it was clear that wasn't going to happen. Maybe AP1 will be updated to include private lot summoning but let's just say I would not prepay for advanced AP2 levels if I were ordering today.
 
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Until Tesla gives you a promised date of delivery of said features, or until Tesla stops updating their cars, they have not breached any sort of agreement or promise with you.

Tesla often gives refunds for items that that promised that end up being massively delayed way longer than is reasonable. Example of the carbon fiber T tops for the Tesla Roadster. It was a $5,000 option I paid for before delivery. It still wasn't available 6 months after delivery, so I asked for a $5,000 refund. Tesla agreed and sent me a check via Fedex. It was really that simple

"Deliver within the timeline and quality expected of a certain critic on the Tesla forums " is not grounds for a refund nor listed on the website. If it is, please let me know so that I may correct my error.

Your standard in not even remotely what we are talking about.

Some of the features originally listed as AP1 features, and sold as AP1 features, now appear to require AP2 and the Enhanced features for $5,000. So owners with an AP1 Model S or Model X, which cannot receive AP2 or the Enhanced features, are rightfully upset having paid for AP1 with a certain set of promised features.

Why not save the headache and simply not buy the feature until it works to your expectation? By buying it upfront, you're acknowledging that the money you're spending now, and the feature you're spending now, is worthwhile. If the feature is not worth the money you're spending now, then don't buy it.

That is exactly what many of us with upcoming deliveries have already decided. Enhanced features look reasonable. Fully autonomous driving is a $3,000 risk with AP2.

I am an experienced Tesla owner (Roadster, 2013 Model S) Having learned how Tesla operates, take screenshots now just in case Tesla moves the goal posts on the features included with Enhanced AP.

The technology is amazing, but Tesla plays fast and loose with their promises and timelines. If you call them on it, they will do the right thing. The refund I got on the Roadster carbon fiber top gave me a great deal of confidence that Tesla will do the right thing if they cannot deliver.
 
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For me it's not the promises that didn't come true, but that the execution of the promised features wasn't really that good on some elements of it.

TACC = Exceeds expectations. Absolutely fantastic smoothness in Firmware 8.0. This is why my Tesla is the road trip car

AEB = Below expectations. Had some major holes that even a lowly Subaru system doesn't have. Was fixed partially in 8.0, and I expect a system that exceeds expectations with 8.1

Lane-Steering = Meets expectations. Has some glitches like trust luck, and losing the lane while cresting a hill. For a first-generation crack at it I'm happy

Sign reading and speed management based on signs = Far below expectations. Reads them wrong all the time especially in Oregon.

AutoPark = Below expectations, and relies on ultrasonic sensors which fall short of what's really needed.

Summons = Meets expectations, but the expectations were low with this one. It's just straight in and straight out. Gimmicky feature for a lot, but I like it.

Side Monitoring = Far below expectations. By far the crappiest blind spot monitoring system I've ever used.

Delivery of promised features = Other people were upset by how long it took, but on par with my own expectations. if there was a promised date I didn't see it.

Overall impressions = Tesla ended up exceeding the capabilities of the hardware so it fell short of expectations. It was understandable due to the sensor technology in place. I feel as if AP 2.0 has the technology to far exceed what we have now, but not for L5. So once again they're over promising before they really know what obstacles they're going to face. It doesn't have to be seen as a bad thing. They make lofty goal, and sometimes its better to have tried and failed. I'll continue to ride this interesting ride.

Like you said how can AEB allow for contact with a vehicle one is following under 35 mph, or stop and go traffic where most of these incidents would happen. Horrible implementation thus far, if I can get the warning in time then immediately after it should apply AEB if I am not quick to react.
 
I do, because if I change my mind (admittedly that's rare) and the car hasn't moved right across it will change back to staying in lane - I just have to let-go, rather than do the extra step of uncancel the stalk, or jerk the steering wheel. I have the indicator hand on the wheel anyway, so it's not a problem (as I perceive it).

changing lanes is much quicker and smoother in 8
 
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changing lanes is much quicker and smoother in 8

Can't say that I've noticed much difference. I had a lot of instances (in 7.1) where it never changed lanes, or took a long time (embarrassing if there were cars behind etc.), and initially with 8.0 I thought it was a lot better ... but since then I've had plenty of "failure / slow to change lanes" so I'm no longer so sure.

When it does change lanes it does so well, and speeds up when appropriate etc. (but it had started doing that under 7.1 ... can't exactly remember in which sub-version that started to happen, so again I'm having difficulty saying it is improved).

A lot seems variable from one person to the next. Some of it may be subjective, of course, but to pick one example plenty of people say they have hand-on-wheel and get nagged all the time, and others have hand-on-wheel and never get nagged (I'm one of the these). Seems bizarre to me, I would have expected a computer to be same-every-time ...