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AP1 vs AP2

Discussion in 'Tesla' started by Driver Dave, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    Interested in hearing comparisons between the two hardware sets from anyone driving both.

    For me, right now, AP1 feels much more solid (of course) with AP2 having a more dynamic feel to it. Like it is ready to do more but is being held back.

    Can't wait until next update on AP2 to get it more on par with AP1 to see if it overtakes it in performance.

    Basically it is chips (AP1) vs software (AP2)
     
  2. ab26

    ab26 Member

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    I had a AP1 Model S before I sold it and got the AP2 Model X. AP1 was pretty much rock solid in terms of lane keeping and definitely MUCH better than the current AP2 software (night and day difference).

    I have known many folks driving AP2 cars as their first Tesla and they think its really good as is, but they haven't really driven the AP1 cars to know how much better it could be.

    Hopefully this disparity is temporary and AP2 software will advance quickly!
     
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  3. Dan43

    Dan43 Member

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    A guess a few here would have had AP1 and now have AP2 cars.

    I'm on AP1 with a facelift S75 and it does all I need, autosteer, TACC, auto parking, summon I haven't really got working yet but all seems very solid and working well.

    I did notice on AP1 that on auto steer when looking for the white lines that they were picked up a lot quicker under nighttime driving with headlights as to daytime and sunlight/weather. Just my feeling.
     
  4. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    At the moment AP1 is more capable and stable. Its lane following is a lot more stable and less likely to exit-dive. Its TACC reacts quicker to drivers cutting in and out of your lane, as well as lane straddlers, thanks to the camera understanding adjacent lanes. Emergency braking and forward collision warning have fewer false positives and recognizes more situations correctly.

    But with that said, we mostly agree that AP1 is already at the peak of its abilities. Easily within this year, AP2's capabilities will eclipse AP1, and by next year AP2 should still be increasing in capability while AP1 is more just a legacy maintenance ordeal.


    So… it all depends on whether one bird in hand is better than two in the bush. Or whatever the right metaphor is.
     
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  5. Dan43

    Dan43 Member

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    AP1 hasn't in my view reached peak capability just yet, 2-3 more updates and by the end of 2017 that will be it as you say AP2 takes over. I'm fine with what AP1 can do it is more than enough for me, but like anything you get used to it so quickly that new capabilities become wanted, I'm already using AP1 on every trip and covers about 50% of current driving, if not more. TACC is also excellent, Autopark a curiosity and summon not really appropriate for the UK smaller spaces, driveways and car parks.
     
  6. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    And I think that's where it's just a subject of opinion, and nobody outside of Tesla really knows what the truth is. I'm still of the opinion that what we see from AP1 right now will be pretty close to the peak, if not already the peak, of its abilities. It's extremely unlikely that any of the other things we want (e.g. automatic freeway exiting, traffic light recognition, better Autosteer around curves and hills, etc) are feasible with the hardware.
     
  7. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    I took my car in for service Thursday evening, and they couldn't fix it until closing time Saturday, so they told me to keep the loaner until today. So that meant I had a loaner for 4 days, more than half a week. The loaner came with AP1, and already had 12,000 miles on it.

    In this time, I used the loaner to go to San Francisco, then almost to Santa Rosa, then home, then Monterey, then home, then Monterey, then Mountain View, and finally back to the service center.

    I learned quite a bit during this trip using AP1 that I never knew before. Some random observations:
    • Exactly when I feel comfortable enough to keep my hands off the wheel is most likely when I also feel comfortable enough to start and use AutoSteer.
    • I am not yet used to turning off Traffic Aware Cruise Control when I want to slow down using the release of accelerator; this caused me to slither around a turn in the rain today because the car didn't slow down as much as I had wanted. This was two contributing factors at the same time causing a problem. I now want to learn how to avoid that in the future. Perhaps I might turn off aggressive regen and start using the brake pedal for that.
    • About the only time I feel comfortable with AutoSteer (as currently implemented) is when there is no traffic, no slippery road, no turns and no nearby obstacles. Even so, the roads tend to give us bridges and other obstacles anyway, meaning I periodically have to regain control so I'm not scared the car decides to go headlong into one of the obstacles suddenly. This comfort level comes from trying it out around traffic and obstacles and noticing all sorts of problems, like it swerving into trucks, the beginnings of concrete barriers (would bisect the car, bisecting right through my body), it swerving across lanes for no good reason, and other bad behaviors.
    • Half of the time, I have to hold down the accelerator so that I can go over the preset limit on the Traffic Aware Cruise Control. Supposedly, in heavy traffic, this wouldn't be an issue, but that's when I don't feel comfortable with AutoSteer.
    • Unfortunately, I already had my own car back with no assistance features when I first got back into rush hour traffic on insufficient capacity roadways (that's the slow kind of traffic -- rush hour traffic on sufficient capacity roadways goes faster than normal traffic, not slower), so I never got to test Traffic Aware Cruise Control in heavy traffic conditions. I still think I would have turned off the AutoSteer. I steer better than it, and I'm a lot smoother, don't oversteer or understeer, know what's coming up on the road more than it, etc..
    • I really like AP1. It is only useful about 2% - 5% of the time, but that's enough to really like it. I can imagine if I ever experienced rush hour traffic on insufficient roadways while using AP1, I would use it 15% of the time and really really love it. I'd be willing to pay about $1,500 - $2,000 for it. I'm actually allowed to upgrade to it for $3,500 according to my order. But, right now, my car actually has AP2 HW, and the new low level AP2 assistance rate for AP2 HW cars for new orders is $6,000, and the high level assistance packages are $10,000. I think that's still taking in money to invest in less expensive products coming out later, like a lot of Model S and Model X costs are. I think there are other upgrades I'd get before any driving assistance packages, such as charger speed upgrade, and maybe a range upgrade. But, more than ever, assistance feature has me interested, and I want to get it now.
    • There is absolutely no way I'd consider AP1 assistance packages something where I do not need to drive the car myself with the car assisting me. About a dozen times, the car tried to run me into a large object, such as a boulder, mountain, cliff (the large object being the Earth when I land on it after arriving at the cliff), a truck, a concrete barrier, a metal barrier, etc.. Each time, I had to show it otherwise. There's no way I would not be actively driving while using AP1 assistance features. Quick glances away at scenery are safer, but even then, I have to make sure there's not much probable activity before even doing such a glance.
    • When I got my own car back, twice I tried to activate AP1 assistance by double-pulling the cruise stalk, and both times I was rather disappointed that it did not work (I have not paid for that feature). Apparently, I had an interest in using it.
     
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  8. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

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    I find it is very useful on long trips on major highways and in bumper to bumper traffic. In those cases it works not "read a book and watch movie" well, but well enough where you relax a bit more while keeping an eye on things, and your hands on the wheel. I have done long trips on long highways where 90% of the time, AP1 was driving and working great.
     
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  9. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Kinda surprised at how little of the time you think it's useful. I use it all the time on the freeway - the only level of traffic I'm not really happy with it in is heavy but flowing, where the following distances are all long enough that idiots cut in and the reaction to folks cutting in is a little later than I prefer.

    It also isn't great at night in bad weather - it does either one fine, but not both together in my experience.

    These days it even does pretty well on smaller streets as long as they aren't really hilly or twisty.
     
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  10. chillaban

    chillaban Active Member

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    Yeah, before 8.0 I would never have thought to use it on surface streets. But 8.0's TACC improvements made the throttle control aspect usable in the city, and it does almost as well as an experienced human driver. And then, 2.50.114+ improved AutoSteer to the point that lately I've been using it on the city stretch of my commute home, and it's been performing surprisingly well. Of course for city use it's far less than hands-off and requires close supervision, but when I first got the car with 7.1, I would never have dared to even try this.
     
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  11. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    You are probably in a small minority. TACC and to a large extent Autosteer in highways works really really well in heavy, stop and go conditions.

    Hmm.. if you are using Autosteer only in highways, as it is intended to be used, there is no way you will end up with the scenarios you described. Autosteer in AP1 works very well as long as you have clear lane markings. If you are in a region where the lanes are faded or confusing due to construction and still expect the car to steer, you are naive and clueless.
     
  12. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    #12 Ulmo, Feb 7, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
    My experience of it trying to put me into an object were a mixture of those above situations. Many in fact were on freeways without construction and with clear lane markings.

    Furthermore, in Driver's Ed, they taught us how to figure out where the lanes are supposed to be. This is back when painted lane markings were rare everywhere; even freeways expected you to figure out the lanes from the seams in the pavement or concrete, and crests of roads, and middle of roads, and the edges of the roads. People were better drivers back then, and had no problems staying in their lanes. I don't see why the Tesla can't do that just fine without any lane markings; all drivers used to do that when I was born and in High School and first got my license.

    ----

    Now, for entertainment: this was part of my regular commute today, only, it wasn't on my regular commute route, nor a regular commute experience:

    IMG_5793.JPG IMG_5792.JPG

    I was to take Highway 17 from Mountain View to Aptos. Tesla-Waze would not start, and my phones were deep in my pocket, and I could risk pulling my back digging them out when sitting in the car. Tesla showed the route open to home.

    Traffic from 85 via 17 to Los Gatos was very unusually light. I wondered what the problem was. Apparently, others had started their Waze app just fine.

    The traffic stopped to a standstill on 17 in Los Gatos. I dug the phones out of my pocket, checked Waze, and noted that there was another "mudslide" on 17, "closing" it. The traffic was not moving at all. It baffled me entirely because I knew that coming in this morning Old Santa Cruz Hwy was open since I took it all the way; I could tell by the traffic speed that they were blocking that route. I thought they were being stupid by not letting us use Old Santa Cruz Hwy. I decided to U-turn and take 101. (I had to wait 30 minutes to crawl to a point where that was possible.)

    By then, 101 traffic was showing double normal traffic. I took an alternate route down the valley toward Morgan Hill. All my mapping software told me to take 152 via Hecker Pass to Watsonville (city). I started out toward Watsonville Road area by Morgan Hill. I had a very nice drive by that reservoir that's out there. I think it's Uvas. The valleys into and out of that reservoir were flooded. At some point, the mapping software started to tell me not to take 152 to Hecker Pass any more. By the time I got to 152, CHP had just closed it (in the direction of Hecker Pass).

    I took the next route. At first, it told me to take 152 to some fields on the way to Hollister then get back to 101 via 25. But, then it once again changed its mind. This time, I decided to follow its change of mind because the last time I didn't, I got turned away. At one point it was detouring me around 101 on a better faster route, which included one stretch of a few city streets that claimed a "33 minute delay" to go a mile or so. After realizing that was the better route, I decided to instead go back to its first idea of a route, 152 to fields to 25 to 101. (To get there, I tried some through roads that had turned into not-through roads with huge heavy flowing rivers crossing them -- these were the carefully created rivers created by careful releases from reservoir dams, and this is what they considered a careful release for the conditions.) On the way to that route, I stopped at the Gilroy SuperCharger, found one that was doing the full 99kW, and got coffee (9 minutes). I then proceeded on that detour route, and arrived at a stop sign right before the above pictures. The first picture was where I was supposed to go. Everyone collected on either side, deciding whether to go, and deciding not to after some minutes of contemplation. This was high rush hour in extremely insufficient capacity highways and freeways, and everyone in this region has pretty stressed requirements in their life, so the contemplations were real. That says a lot considering we all decided better of it and not to try after 3 to 6 minutes looking at it. The second picture depicts water flowing low enough that after watching about 40 other cars do it I realized I was able to safely make it across with my Tesla without it hitting the battery (I kept my door open to make certain it stayed low enough and went slow as hell). This is one case where having a Tesla, especially a Model S, especially without air suspension, was not the best of things.

    I finally got to 25, dealt with another lower flood over that road (which was bidirectional, so all the exiting traffic that usually stacks up clogging 101 to get onto 25 was going even slower than normal to deal with the little road flood, which was added to the double traffic with all the 17 detouring), got onto 101, and crawled (but moving) down (past a looky-loo at the other bridge that had all its railings on one side gone, causing a 10 mile backup on the North 101 side) to some more free flowing stuff, and proceeded on my way. This time, 129 was showing very heavily clogged up, so I decided to take my oldest of standby routes that always works, San Juan Road. Now, finally, all my apps and software and nav everywhere told me to take a turn off of San Juan Road and detour entirely around Watsonville, and I didn't even hit any slowdowns on San Juan Road. I did hit one slowdown on its route, but I got to free flowing traffic pretty soon, and was able to make it to Nob Hill, charge for 1.5 hours with Chademo (I was at 9% in Watsonville, and I wanted insurance from losing power at home), then arrive home 5 hours after I set out to go home, and about 4.25 hours after I usually get there.

    Comments on Waze said they opened Old Santa Cruz Highway from 17 at around 5pm. I was there around 3pm. I could have sat in traffic for 2 hours, then gotten home at 6pm and save use, or do what I did, and get home around 7:30pm with almost a full charge. But, comments on Waze said it might be closed for a whole day at first, so I decided 101 was a safer path to take.

    Had I dug the phones out of my pocket and checked Waze, I would have taken 101 to begin with, and probably missed most of the early traffic. Who knows -- maybe I could have been part of the 152 closure event. Maybe divine intervention.

    Every bridge I crossed with water under it crossed a river with huge amounts of rapidly flowing water, or some type of nearly full waterway or valley. Thank god concrete is heavy and most bridges are rooted into the earth with large piers pounded into the ground locked in by rebar and concrete; otherwise, some of those bridges looked like they would have washed away in a lot of those places.

    Had I had AP assistance features, I think I could have used it in the "faster" detour through Gilroy city roads to 101, and then on 101, or even just stayed on 101 for much more of its super slow or stopped portions. That would have been interesting, and might have been a very good use case for AP.

    I'm going to go ahead and guess that AP would probably not have an excellent idea of what to do in those pictured roadways.
     
  13. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    Hmmm I am wondering if you were driving your other car, a Mercedes with DrivePilot, and getting confused
     
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  14. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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    I think it is interesting that I haven't seen any mention of one of the things that Elon mentioned in the ER call today: That they had planned to have the Mobileye and Tesla Vision/Nvidia running in parallel in the cars to make a graceful switch from AP1 software to AP2 software but that Mobileye refused so Tesla had to redesign the board to exclude the EyeQ3 chip and switch to a 100% Tesla Vision system.

    So Tesla wanted to make the experience great for their customers by putting hardware in that would only be used for a few months...

    I think this is the real reason that Mobileye cancelled Tesla as a customer, to make Tesla's transition as difficult as possible.
     
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  15. mkjayakumar

    mkjayakumar Active Member

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    This is exactly what I suspected.

    MobileEye simply didn't want them to be used as a hardware supplier while Tesla develops all their IP and software. They wanted to control the whole self driving experience.

    That stance worked well with all other auto manufacturers including the Germans who were all happy to slap the whole MobileEye system into their cars and give it a fancy name like DrivePilot and call it a day.

    Unfortunately that didn't work with Tesla. Tesla figured they can produce a far better system by developing a better software and also get the benefit of collecting valuable data.
     
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  16. DillyBop

    DillyBop Member

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    i like AutoPilot 1 a lot.
     

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