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AP1 vs. AP2

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by aleagle, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. aleagle

    aleagle Member

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    I'm new and somewhat confused about the difference btw AP1 and AP2. I had always thought that the latter was an updated version of the former, but now I'm reading posts that refer to AP2 getting parity with AP1. If AP2 needs to get parity with an earlier version it makes no sense. Could someone explain this to me? Also, did software version 8.1 apply to both AP1 and AP2?
    TIA
     
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  2. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #2 Tam, Apr 13, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    Autopilot hardware AP1 with MobilEye EyeQ3 were installed since 2014. People paid for it but its autopilot function was not activated until a whole year later.

    That's 1 year of wait to make sure the system could be released for the public.

    Enhanced Autopilot hardware AP2 with Nvidia DRIVE PX 2 AI were installed since 10/2016. Just like how you paid first in 2014 without the activation of Autopilot for the whole year, now with this much more powerful system that can learn fast, you also have to wait but not for the whole year and the Enhanced Autopilot is catching up with AP1 in just a few months.

    Both AP1 and AP2 will continue to improve with incremental rollout of firmware updates.

    AP1 and AP2 are two different systems which you might ask why start from a scratch with AP2? Why not continue to improve upon what you already have in AP1?

    That's because there are conflicts between Tesla and MobilEye. Tesla also thinks MobilEye is slowing down Tesla's progress. MobilEye is very popular among car manufactures such as 2018 Cadillac Supercruise but it's doubtful that MobilEye can keep up with 2017 Tesla.

    That is why Tesla is willing to start from zero with AP2 which is much more superior system than AP1 and Tesla believes that AP2 can catch up with AP1 and will surpass it in a very short time.

    And that's why Tesla is planning on a demonstration of driverless cross country LAX to NYC trip this December.
     
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  3. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    Wow this is a whole bunch of spin.

    first of all, 7 months and counting isn't "catching up with AP1 in just a few months".
    second of all, there are not indications that GM is even using mobileye for supercruise and according to GM specifications for supercruise, it will actually not only keep up but surpass 2017 tesla by far.
     
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  4. pilotSteve

    pilotSteve Member

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    Well.... we have front row reserved seats for this title bout! My money is on Tesla.
     
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  5. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #5 Tam, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    AP2 announcement was on 10/19/2016.

    Today is 4/14/2017.

    That's 176 days or almost 6 months.

    By 1/1/2017, first 1,000 owners got over-the-air firmware update for low speed autopilot.

    That's only 74 days or not even 3 months.

    The system is exponentially getting better from zero in less than 3 months even though it seems like 7 months.
     
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  6. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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  7. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    #7 Tam, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
    I am not sure what specifications you are referring to because GM Supercruise is not intended to work on surface streets while I have been currently using Tesla AP2 for both freeways and surface streets (including unmarked and without-any-lane residential streets) right now eversince I got my Tesla 3 weeks ago.

    GM Supercruise is not intended to recognize traffic lights but Tesla advertising video already shows that the AP2 already can but it is just not letting the public to use that feature yet.
     
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  8. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    You have no idea what you are talking about because you have no access to Tesla in-house engineering information.

    In this thread and another one you just started you repeatedly make sweeping absolute statements without foundation.
     
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  9. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    so when other companies release pre-alpha software do we also use the excuse "well you don't work for tesla so beat it!"?

    Tesla release pre-alpha software, its very known. its why it started from 35mph and elon warned multiple times to be very very very careful.
    why? cause they released it to beat the deadline. its pre-alpha software that almost killed anyone that left it on for more than five seconds.
    all you have to do is go back to January to all the reviews and videos of AP2.

    your love for tesla has completely clouded your judgment.
     
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  10. Nyquest

    Nyquest Member

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    I can objectively say that AP1.0 works a lot better than AP2 currently - but I do agree that it is quickly improving. Behind schedule? Yes. Much greater potential? Absolutely.

    I use AP2 every chance it comes on but as stated in the "BETA" agreement with the update, you have to be ready to take over at any moment and you shouldn't have your hands off the wheel.
     
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  11. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    You are entering the no spin zone:

    Tesla AP2 is a scam and currently works significantly worse than AP1. Do not buy a Tesla for autopilot purposes until you see that AP2 is actually working properly or you will be disappointed. Alternative is to buy a used AP1 car at discount, but it will not improve like AP2 might over a year or more.

    There will be many more cars from various manufacturers with autopilot available in the next several months that may exceed Tesla.
     
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  12. Gibson

    Gibson Member

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    And your hatred for Tesla has clouded yours. You state opinion as if it were fact. Fortunately, many people who frequent this forum are quite knowledgeable about Tesla and can separate the two. However, some people come to this message board seeking honest, unbiased opinions. Unfortunately, it would seem that they cannot get that from you. You clearly have an agenda that prevents you from providing unbiased information and opinions. Perhaps you feel that the more people that are angry with Tesla, the more successful a class action law suit would be. Or perhaps the more the stock price would be affected. Personally, I don't care about the class action suit or any lawsuit for that matter and I don't care about the stock price. I don't own any. Wish I did, but alas I don't. Certainly not going to buy any at this price, but that is a topic for another thread. And I don't want my money back from Tesla. Quite honestly, I love the car. Greatest car I have ever owned. It has faults and yes I can talk about them rationally, if asked.

    The OP had an honest and valid question about AP1 and AP2 and the differences between the 2. Your post(s) did not provide any useful information to answer to that question. Rather you attacked the post of someone who tried to do so without any specific information that added to the question/thread. You did exactly what you accused the responder of doing.

    There are some excellent reviews of AP1 and AP2 on this message board that provide honest opinions and comments on where the system works and where it fails. Calling the system a "sham" or "pre-alpha" or a "fraud" adds nothing to the thread and does not answer the original question. And quite frankly, in its current iteration is simply not true.

    If you truly dislike the car as much as it would appear that you do and believe that GM will surpass Tesla in 2017, sell your car and pre-order a GM vehicle with super cruise. Life is too short to waste time. If there is a better product out there, buy it. You may very well be correct. Of course, it also might just be your hatred for Tesla that is clouding your judgement.

    My experience differs greatly from yours. I find AP2 to work extremely well on highways. I also find TACC to work very well. They are exactly what I paid for. AP2 on local roads is clearly a work in progress and weeks if not a couple months behind AP1, at least in my opinion.

    In response to the OP, AP2 appears to have far superior hardware to AP1 and will presumably far surpass AP1 as far as function and features. However, since the system started from scratch it had quite a bit of ground to make up to catch a very good AP1 system. In my opinion, AP2 is currently getting close to AP1 at highway speeds and with TACC, but AP1 is still better. In my, opinion, the new hardware and features will surpass AP1 in the next couple of months. But that is admittedly speculative on my part. On local roads, AP1 is still far superior to AP2 and it will likely take a couple months just for AP2 to approach AP1 on local roads. I rarely use AP2 on local roads for a variety of reasons.

    Because of the progress shown on AP2 to date and particularly with the latest update, I would suggest purchasing an AP2 equipped car at this point if one is able. But that is my opinion and does not make it so.

    Drive safe. Be civil.
     
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  13. Tangible

    Tangible Member

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    Buying a Tesla with EAP is like buying a puppy. You have to pay for a complete dog, a loyal companion that will enhance your life, but what you get is something fun to play with that pisses all over the place, acts suicidal, and chews up your stuff.

    Puppies grow up. AP2 may also, but who knows how long it wil take?
     
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  14. timvracer

    timvracer Member

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    To anyone who is researching Tesla, I did the same, and I almost bought an Audi RS7 instead of the Tesla due to the things I read on this board. I was terrified that my car would be delivered late, that it would have many quality issues, and that the AP2 would be unusable and improvements would come slowly.

    THANK GOD I didn't listen to the haters. I took the chance and got the Tesla. My car was delivered 3 weeks after I ordered it (early), it was nearly flawless except for a couple small issues fixed right there at the delivery center, and I have found AP2 to be excellent, well beyond expectations. I drove my car to L.A. on I-5, on the way down (with only 1 supercharger stop over dinner), I used TACC and it was awesome. Autosteer was limited to 35mph, but when we hit a huge traffic jam (30m of stop and go), I turned on AutoSteer/TACC, and it simply took care of the entire traffic jam for me. It was amazingly cool.

    Then while I was in L.A., I got an update to 8.1, and that allowed my car to autosteer at 80mph, and it did much of the driving for me on the way home on I-5. It now helps me get to work every day in the carpool lane with TACC/Autosteer.

    Sure, it has flaws, it is not good with tighter corners, and lane changing is still a bit off, but I am so glad I got this car, I love it.

    So don't let the haters with their wholesale statements without useful data or facts get you down, read a lot, there is great info on this board, but also be cautious at those with an agenda.
     
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  15. JonG

    JonG Member

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    What posturing from both sides!

    AP1 arrived late 2015. It wasn't perfect but was pretty good on highways and on well marked roads. Features were added over time like lane changing and being able to 'see' two cars ahead. It's also had safe guards added over time like increasing nags to hold the wheel and sensitivity to low bridges causing it to brake, and preventing undertaking in some regions.

    AP2 is an all new platform and arrived in the last few days if 2016. It differs in technical areas and from a hardware stance it's believed the hardware will support full self driving (although a definition of what this means in this context is unknown but it's not going to be "driverless").

    The features can be considered in two ways; availability of them and performance of them.

    AP2 (or EAP as Tesla call it) still does not have the availability of all the features in AP1. Most noticeable is the relatively low speed restriction on all but highways/motorways, but also related functions like auto wipers and high beam are missing. EAP currently has no features not in AP1, but this will change over time.

    The second aspect is performance of the features and in general, AP1 is still performing better. Because of the way the systems work, and that they work differently, there will be variability in performance and you can't make a blanket one being better than the other in all areas. But currently it's 'postworthy" if somebody finds a scenario where the performance of EAP is better than AP1. Note, both systems are fallible, there are plenty of videos where AP on both cars gets it wrong and it's typically down to unreasonable expectations, but poor road markings, and that includes normally good roads but dirt, rain, low sun, etc have made it difficult to see, results in variable performance just like a human may struggle in some situations, in general (so not always), AP1 currently (so maybe not forever) handles all this better than EAP. It's also worth noting that on some roads, both work totally reasonably, one might say faultlessly.

    AP1 is near the limit of its capability and it's probably worth seeing this as the final thing both in terms of features and performance with just tweaks to come.

    EAP is still early and both features and performance will get better. There is no clear list of features though so what it will provide over time is unknown, nor is it known which features will be in EAP and which in the full self driving option, a further cost option. They both use AP2 hardware.

    Buying older cars often delivers better value and a late AP1 car is significantly cheaper than an early AP2 car even though today, on the road, AP1 does more. The premium for AP2 is based on the potential of what it should offer.
     
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  16. Tam

    Tam Active Member

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    I don't see how AP2 will not be driverless:

    Master Plan, Part Deux Elon Musk July 20, 2016

    "...Once it picks you up, you will be able to sleep, read or do anything else enroute to your destination.

    You will also be able to add your car to the Tesla shared fleet just by tapping a button on the Tesla phone app and have it generate income for you while you're at work or on vacation,.."


    On its current web page:

    Autopilot


    "Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year."
     
  17. JonG

    JonG Member

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    But what you've bought on the configurator..

    "...enabling self driving in nearly all circumstances"

    And it goes on to talk about the person in the drivers seat.
     
  18. bob_p

    bob_p Active Member

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    For those of us who've been dealing with Tesla for a long time (we bought our first Model S over 4 years ago, VIN 3xxx), what we're seeing with the delays in releasing AP2 is consistent with how Tesla has released software since the first Model S cars hit the road.

    Tesla tends to be aggressive on their goals - announcing optimistic release dates and functionality targets - and then reality sets in, and it takes longer than they expected, the releases get delayed, and sometimes the functionality goals aren't completely met (at least not in the first release).

    I'm not surprised it's taking longer than expected for Tesla to get their new Vision software to match (and then exceed) what Mobileye provided with the AP1 hardware. Mobileye invested years in developing their software - and for Tesla to try to do that in only a few months has proven to be overly optimistic - though with the latest releases, AP2 is getting closer to being usable.

    From a hardware standpoint, AP2 has the potential to be significantly better than AP1 - and because Tesla is being as aggressive as possible to deliver new software capabilities - as quickly as they can, we'll probably continue to see releases taking longer than we all would like to see.

    The lack of AP2 software didn't prevent us from order our new S 100D on the first day - and being among the first (at least the first in Texas) to get one delivered. We knew when we placed the order EAP wasn't working - and expected likely would take longer than Tesla had announced to see AP2 achieve AP1 parity. At least for us, we're in this for the long haul - buying the longest range EV on the market (344 miles at 100%) - and we're willing to be patient to get AP2 working (though why can't we get the automatic windshield wipers working now???).
     
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  19. Bladerskb

    Bladerskb Like how many times do i have to be right?

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    You mean this surface streets action?



    Supercruise can work on street if they wanted but they want to provide 100% safe system not tesla delivering pre-alpha dangerous software.

    Its about quality of features not quantity. With your logic if someone released a L3 or L4 highway car you would claim tesla is better because it can kill you on surface streets.

    Then you post a demo video, a demo video using NVidia driveworks sdk. a demo video that took days just to get a clean run. a demo video with disengagement for every mile. that demo video is proof that ap2 is ready?

    lol, this is what i'm talking about, you don't care about facts.

    the facts are super cruise is the first hands free true L2 system.
    Not even EAP is hands free. As tesla says, "its a driver assistance system and you must monitor the vehicle surroundings and be ready to takeover at anytime".
     
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  20. voltaren

    voltaren Member

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    Bladerskb, what's your agenda? I've seen many of your posts - nearly all about autonomous driving. Most alarming is that you are clearly not a Tesla fan (in fact you clearly delineate yourself from 99% on this board), you most likely don't own a Tesla, and typically add nothing but arrogance and pessimism to threads.

    Care to share your motivations? Stormy weather in Shortville?


     
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