TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

AP2 - Definitely heading in the right direction...

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by Driver Dave, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    One sees quite different thinking on TMC often times... ;)
     
    • Funny x 1
  2. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,848
    You prepaid early before it's available for a lower price.

    You could have paid later at a higher price.

    They didn't take your money. You made your choice.
     
    • Like x 4
    • Helpful x 1
    • Disagree x 1
  3. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Not quite. I ordered an AP1 car with AP1 for $2,500. They delivered me an AP2 car, with no working AP. In order to remove AP from the car, they would have charged me at least a $500 "change fee." At the time I ordered I had no idea that AP2 would exist. So they absolutely changed the car on me and then would have charged me to take the option off.

    Only time will tell if they keep charging $5,000 for EAP. But it's really weird to tell someone buying a car in December that they have to pay now or pay a premium in the future for something that doesn't exist yet, while allowing someone that buys a year later when it's working to pay exactly the same amount for it to work the day they get the car. I guess as long as EAP jumps to $6,000 and FSD jumps to $4,000 the day the first EAP/FSD features show up then you're right. If the price stays the same or drops, then Tesla literally charged a premium to their early adopters and then made them wait 30X as long as was stated.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Love x 1
  4. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2014
    Messages:
    9,451
    Location:
    EU
    Not quite the full truth.

    Many people made their choice based on information provided by Tesla.

    Had Tesla been not so misleading about the EAP timeline back in 2016, many would have made a different choice.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Love x 1
  5. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,848
    #145 bhzmark, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
    Among other things you were complaining about your FSD purchase claiming that someone at Tesla told you it would be "shortly after that." You paid less for that, instead of paying more when it came. Your choice.

    Re AP1 to AP2: yes early adopters pay (sometimes more, sometimes at a discount) and wait longer for improvements as they roll out. Surprise welcome to Tesla fast moving improvements. You think you waited long? Others who bought in late 2014 and early 2015 paid about the same and waited longer for AP1 and won't have AP2 or less time to get AP working at the level that it is now.

    And they started a thread to complain about the wait. And they eventually got over it when the software was rolled out.

    In your case you paid $2500 for a feature that now sells for $5,000 (or $6,000 after delivery).

    They could have given you back your $2,500 and now you would have to pay $6,000 to get AP.

    They saved you $3,500 at the price of the time value of $2500 for 6 months. And yet you still find a way to feel offended.

    I predict you will eventually get over it and get on with your life.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  6. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    647
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    @bhzmark: Still waiting on those "fast moving" windshield wipers to start moving when it rains. :(
     
  7. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    #147 gearchruncher, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
    Two quick facts:
    1) I didn't buy FSD. It was advertised as a year away when I bought my car. I wasn't giving Tesla my $3K for a year. I have no complaints about FSD timelines as Tesla stated a over year out and we're nowhere near that.
    2) I paid $5,000 for EAP like everyone. It was advertised as two weeks away. Nobody got EAP for $2,500.

    I know many people are not familiar with the following situation, but there are at least 20,000 vehicles in this state:

    1) Ordered car before October 15th, 2016. HW2/AP2/EAP/FSD was announced on October 20th, so the config of these cars was locked in and required a $500 change fee or $2,500 cancellation fee. All cars since October 10th made with HW2, so cars in transit were already HW2.

    2) Tesla told these 20,000 owners that they could either keep their configuration, and AP2 would be limited to doing exactly what AP1 did in software, and would never do the EAP functions. It would do AP1 things by the end of 2016. Alternately, they could pay $2,500 more ($5K total) for EAP, which would also begin rolling out at the end of 2016. You had until the delivery date to decide.

    3) No offer was given to remove the $2,500 "AP1" from the cars even though they would be delivered with no functioning AP at all and just the "promise" of working in the future. You would need to pay a change fee or cancel fee to remove this.

    4) If you didn't buy EAP before delivery, then it would be $3,500 more ($6,000 total). No consideration that you would need to pay for a feature which had yet to be demonstrated, much less even having AP1 features on the car working. You paid the same for EAP on Nov 15th as a customer does today.

    5) Cars were delivered, with no AP functions (the early cars didn't even have basic cruise control). Up to January 20th, the Tesla page still said December 2016 for AP1 functions.

    6) People took delivery of cars on Dec 23rd, with Elon having tweeted the day before "Looks like we might be ready to rollout most of Autopilot functionality for HW2 towards the end of next week." These customers made the decision at the point of delivery to add the $2,500 EAP option or not, based on the information Tesla was providing.

    7) The first AP version was released on Jan 22nd, with a 45MPH restriction on the highway. It was March 28th before it could drive over 55 MPH on a highway. As of June 14th, 2017, AP2 still does not do all AP1 does.

    This is not about FSD at all. This is about the fact that Tesla has $100,000,000 of customer money from before 2017 based on promises of having functions within a week that have not yet materialized 25 weeks later. They have $50,000,000 for EAP, which we are nowhere near to having a single promised feature for.

    All they had to do was remove the $1,000 "after delivery" fee for features that are not yet working, and all of this goes away. Instead, they rushed people to buy it, by saying that you could save $1,000 by paying now, instead of in two weeks when it started working.

    And you know what is one of the biggest links on the My Tesla page? Add FSD for only $4,000! "All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route." Still no lessons learned 6 months later.
     
    • Helpful x 2
    • Love x 2
    • Informative x 1
  8. NerdUno

    NerdUno Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    647
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    Ah, those pesky facts keep messing up the fanboy narrative. :rolleyes:
     
  9. bhzmark

    bhzmark Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages:
    2,848
    #149 bhzmark, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
    You said you bought an AP1 and they gave you an AP2.
    Your story is changing. Whatever.

    you will write many paragraphs to justify your upset.

    Others exactly like you are enjoying their car and life without the upset. Your choice.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  10. Matias

    Matias Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,839
    Location:
    Finland
    IMG_1059.JPG
     
    • Funny x 2
  11. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I bought the car because it is amazing first electric car that really works, with supercharger stations to make long trips possible, and it drives amazingly.

    That it came with any sort of self driving, was a surprise, and I was surprised to see that it the proper situations it was actually very useful. A bonus I wasn't expecting.

    When the NVIDIA hardware, and multiple cameras, was presented as an option for AP, EAP later, and FSD very later... and knowing it wasn't going to work out of the box... I knew cutting edge software development is hard, but definitely wanted in. It was like being able to be part of a moon shot. So awesome.

    So in grand picture of things, I have no idea how people can get so upset being part of moon shot technology that is trying to change the world.

    My advice to those who are upset: Next time when there is new hardware, and the ground breaking software is not ready, simply don't buy it. Software development is always crazy. Especially when you are working on something that is as complicated as self driving.

    For me: It is a life experience just being able to be part of it and watch it develop.

    Worth every cent.
     
    • Like x 5
    • Helpful x 1
    • Love x 1
  12. oktane

    oktane Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,589
    Location:
    USA
    You're missing the point. I test drove an AP1 car and loved it. I put an order down when my sales person called me to tell me AP2 was released and would be much better than AP1 in every way. It would COMPLETE final validation December 2016. There was an early video Oct/Nov 2016 showing the car driving through city streets and parking lot entirely autonomously. This turned out to be a fake video.

    Imagine my shock that after 7+ months of car ownership my car cannot drive as well as an AP1 car or have the same basic safety/convenience features.

    This car was sold as version 2.0 of an already acceptably good product. No one told us we'd be going backwards 5 years in development. Classic bait and switch. The FSD video and fictitious claims makes it FRAUD. Tesla lied and misrepresented how far along it was in EAP development, and fraudulently induced the sale of my car.
     
    • Disagree x 1
    • Love x 1
  13. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    How was it fake? I took as nvidia hardware running the nvidia software showing where they where headed. I never ever thought the production cars were going to have this working out of the box.

    I have both. They have slight difference, but on the whole, they both drive as well as each other at this point.

    When I got my car, it was very clear to me on the web site that the AP features would not be turned on. I can see how you can be upset if you missed this.
     
    • Like x 4
  14. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Can you explain, in the situation where someone ordered a car on October 1st, and Tesla changed the configuration after ordering, that they were supposed to "simply don't buy it?"
     
    • Funny x 1
  15. oktane

    oktane Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Messages:
    1,589
    Location:
    USA
    The video was multiple short takes spliced together to make the appearance of a continuous drive. I don't know about the "silky smooth" build, but the current build I have is no where near AP1. I had driven AP1 extensively (500 miles). AP2 isn't even aware of the cars around it. It can't smoothly track a curve. The braking behavior is bizarre and dangerous.

    Auto highbeam dimming doesn't work. Auto wipers don't work. AEB barely works. Blindspot barely works.

    In no way is what I have a better version of an AP1 car. Had I known through proper disclosure by Tesla, I would not have purchased. I could have purchased an AP1 car and saved $50k, and had a better functioning car.
     
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
    • Love x 1
  16. gearchruncher

    gearchruncher Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    722
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The day I ordered my car it described AP1, which I had test driven.

    The day I took delivery of the car, it said: "Enhanced Autopilot adds these new capabilities to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience. Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.

    Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software is expected to complete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval."

    6 days after I took delivery, Elon said: "Looks like we might be ready to rollout most of Autopilot functionality for HW2 towards the end of next week"

    What did I miss? None of these things are true, but only time has proven that.

    I ordered early October 2016. When did you order?
     
    • Love x 3
  17. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I seriously don't know what you are driving, but driving AP2 is definitely as usable as much as AP1 is.

    Maybe you have forgotten how AP1 was? Do you have the latest update?

    I drive both, back and forth, daily. There is little to no difference on basic highway driving, well lined local roads, stop and go traffic.

    If I had to pick again, I would definitely still choose AP2.

    AP2 will continue to get better. It has a future.

    AP1 is stuck.
     
    • Like x 3
    • Informative x 1
  18. Driver Dave

    Driver Dave Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    560
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Funny, when I bought my X, I was late to the AP2 switch over.

    I requested to change things to AP2, knowing it wasn't going to work yet, just because I wanted something that was going to be part of the future, not stuck in 2016.

    Still can't fathom why people would be upset at getting the latest hardware, and watching it develop as the year goes on. I mean, how fun is that?
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Max*

    Max* Charging

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2015
    Messages:
    6,645
    Location:
    NoVa
    I watched the video several times, can you point me to the time at which the various small videos are spliced together? I couldn't see it with the naked eye.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
  20. JonG

    JonG Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Messages:
    490
    Location:
    UK
    #160 JonG, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
    Lots of people were in this situation. You got a call if you were lucky telling you to either upgrade to EAP or your AP2 would be limited to AP1 features on AP2 hardware

    I've also heard countless peopl , in the UK at least, been given test drives in AP1 cars because EAP wasn't working, ordering, taking delivery, and the staff not telling them what they'd done. Consequently their car turns up and doesn't do what the test drive car did. Obv as EAP catches up this is reducing but there was prob a 4 month window were people were duped on test drives.
     
    • Informative x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC