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AP2 - Definitely heading in the WRONG direction...

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Meh.

It's an emerging field. There is no template for suitable previous experience.

The fact that chip designer Jim Keller will now oversee both Autopilot hardware and software suggests that just writing better software for a Drive PX2 is simply a step forward - something any car maker that's not asleep at the wheel could achieve, and will achieve (given enough LIDARs, Radars, Cameras and Street Maps).

It's been an interesting set of staffing moves.

I thought the Lattner hire was a bit odd given the role at the time. Lattner's replacement to run the AI and vision stuff seems to be Andrej Karpathy, who recently (last year) completed his Ph.D. at Stanford. Certainly good ML expertise but pretty much right out of grad school. I suppose management oversight will come from Keller. Will be interesting to see how that partnership pans out.
 
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No they refuse to issue refunds.

It's absolutely not legal, it's called fraud. You can't take money for something in this country and not deliver something in exchange without the courts obligating you to return it. Tesla may be liable for the original amount, plus interest, plus damages. There is a class action suit in progress regarding this by a very high-profile law firm.

It's clearly not legal for them to take the money and just never deliver, but it's a lot less clear what "never" means. Pretty unlikely that it means right now, though, since even when FSD was first announced the timeline was the end of 2017 at absolute earliest.
 
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No they refuse to issue refunds.

It's absolutely not legal, it's called fraud. You can't take money for something in this country and not deliver something in exchange without the courts obligating you to return it. Tesla may be liable for the original amount, plus interest, plus damages. There is a class action suit in progress regarding this by a very high-profile law firm.

Only for fraud you have to demonstrate an intent to deceive... Good luck with that...

Furthermore, it was very clearly called out when you, or anyone else for that matter, bought the car that EAP wasn't ready yet and would come over time with software updates... Just because you don't think it's happening fast enough isn't grounds for a claim. Granted there is always some lawyer out there wiling to chase anything to see if they can make it stick.

I would be just as annoyed as anyone else if I had an AP2 car and were still waiting on feature/functionality parody with AP1, no doubt... Hell I'd probably be right here complaining non stop about it and I'm sure that shocks no one... I waited to buy my AP1 car until Tesla had the software going in the right direction and I haven't purchased and AP2 car for the same reason as I'm not going to buy a car and pay lease payments while I wait for who knows how long for Tesla to get the software right... Having followed the company for a very long time I've learned two constant things... One, NEVER trust Elon when he gives any sort of a delivery/availability date, and two, stick to your guns with what you want out of the car and don't buy one until it has exactly what you want as you'll likely be stuck with reason one for awhile...

Jeff
 
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The more I read the more I feel that my 2014 P85 is the pinnacle of Model S and will not be surpasssed for the money I spent. Happy bunny here:)

Absolutely. You had the better value proposition of a better car utilizing AP1 and 2 years of more usage at a lower price. Your car will be further depreciated along by the time another manufacturer puts up real competition for Tesla (probably within 2 years).
 
Only for fraud you have to demonstrate an intent to deceive... Good luck with that...

Furthermore, it was very clearly called out when you, or anyone else for that matter, bought the car that EAP wasn't ready yet and would come over time with software updates... Just because you don't think it's happening fast enough isn't grounds for a claim. Granted there is always some lawyer out there wiling to chase anything to see if they can make it stick.

I would be just as annoyed as anyone else if I had an AP2 car and were still waiting on feature/functionality parody with AP1, no doubt... Hell I'd probably be right here complaining non stop about it and I'm sure that shocks no one... I waited to buy my AP1 car until Tesla had the software going in the right direction and I haven't purchased and AP2 car for the same reason as I'm not going to buy a car and pay lease payments while I wait for who knows how long for Tesla to get the software right... Having followed the company for a very long time I've learned two constant things... One, NEVER trust Elon when he gives any sort of a delivery/availability date, and two, stick to your guns with what you want out of the car and don't buy one until it has exactly what you want as you'll likely be stuck with reason one for awhile...

Jeff


Agree with your last paragraph, but not the first two.

As to intent to deceive, it is clear cut. Fake FSD video, bait & switch test drive using AP1 car (with implication that delivered car would have at minimum same functionality), written communication from Tesla employees that the AP2 car would be substantially better than AP1 autopilot. Through deposition it is trivial to prove that Tesla internally knew they could never deliver on "completed software" by December 2016, since the code wasn't even written. Fraudulent inducement is the term.

No reasonable person could expect that AP2 cars at delivery would not be AT LEAST equal to AP1 cars and have AT MINIMUM the same working safety features. I'm not a Tesla insider, and not privy to internal supplier disputes or key man firings, nor should I have to be, to avoid Tesla's unethical and illegal business practices.

I'm glad that you previously knew Tesla was a fraud-ridden company so you managed to dodge the bullet on AP2. Others of us weren't so lucky.
 
When you bought it, you should be aware of 2 escape clauses:

1) Regulatory: So far three states have approved driverless cars so "regulatory" is no longer an excuse for those 3 states.

2) Validation: Tesla does not promise a particular numerical year pending "complete validation".

What if the completeness won't be completed for a long time like 2 decades but eventually, it will be complete in an unforeseeable future :)

Might wanna sign up for another Business Law class. :cool:
 
Furthermore, it was very clearly called out when you, or anyone else for that matter, bought the car that EAP wasn't ready yet and would come over time with software updates.
Just as a point of fact: EAP was described as a single software update option at the time of my purchase. You've seen this screenshot plenty of times.

Anecdotally, salespeople stated that this update was coming "next week" when I took delivery in the beginning of December. The CEO also was tweeting its imminent release at that time. So not quite right to say that your claim was very clearly called out to me.
 
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It's clearly not legal for them to take the money and just never deliver, but it's a lot less clear what "never" means. Pretty unlikely that it means right now, though, since even when FSD was first announced the timeline was the end of 2017 at absolute earliest.

2017 timeline is about a "roll out" of software.

Tesla did fulfill that with the first 1,000 owners. There is no fraud there!

It is just like a start of production in the past for Model S then Model X when only a very few cars were produced by the deadline but not a meaningful massive number of cars.

About the money, you bought features that existed only on a demo video with a promise that it will happen in an unknown future.

There is no fraud there because there is no future deadline.

Also, usually, companies would offer incentives for you to use their beta products such as free usage or even pay you some money.

So if their beta products fail, you just can't sue them because you are their testers.

However, Tesla has been doing the reverse. It has been offering unfinished products for sales.

Tesla does not force anyone to do it. You consented to pay for it and now are feeling remorseful for signing up.

Astronaut John Glenn was a test pilot and there were times that the products kept trying to kill him. He didn't sue and he couldn't because he knew what he signed up for: a beta product that could have killed him.

In summary, there has been no fraud in selling an unproven product.

You consented for a beta product. And if you didn't know you consented for it, the current class action suit will prove Tesla's point.
 
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You'd think people would do some research before they spend this much money on a car... If you had, you'd have seen the software delays with AP1 and make the obvious connection that the same thing was going to happen with AP2... Don't come here and start whining about how unfair life is just because you were too inept to do enough research before you bought the car in the first place.

I did tons of research. I bought an AP1 car when only AP1 existed. They delivered an AP2 car. What more was I supposed to do? Remember, 20-30K people bought when AP1 was on the order sheet but were delivered AP2 cars.

Also, I see a lot of people in here assuming this is about FSD. For me at least, it's not. It's about AP2 reaching AP1 parity (promised Dec 2016,) and getting value for my $2,500 EAP "upgrade" which was also promised in Dec 2016.

FSD has no timeline, and any hints were beyond 2017, so nobody really has a case there. But the class action that exists and the complaints of most owners I know are around how long it is taking for AP2 to work at the level of AP1 when that WAS promised half a year ago.
 
I know it's hard to accept responsibility for ones actions and is much, much easier to blame someone or something else for one's own poor decisions... However, at some point in your life you're going to have to realize that you can't blame everyone or everything else and need to accept responsibility on your own... Perhaps now should be the time? I doubt it though just from your posts...

Stop using the word "fraud"... "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means"...

Jeff

No, of course not, since as you stated, I'm not responsible for Tesla's fraud. Rest assured, no jury or arbiter, will see it your way.
 
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2017 timeline is about a "roll out" of software.

Tesla did fulfill that with the first 1,000 owners. There is no fraud there!

It is just like a start of production in the past for Model S then Model X when only a very few cars were produced by the deadline but not a meaningful massive number of cars.

About the money, you bought features that existed only on a demo video with a promise that it will happen in an unknown future.

There is no fraud there because there is no future deadline.

Also, usually, companies would offer incentives for you to use their beta products such as free usage or even pay you some money.

So if their beta products fail, you just can't sue them because you are their testers.

However, Tesla has been doing the reverse. It has been offering unfinished products for sales.

Tesla does not force anyone to do it. You consented to pay for it and now are feeling remorseful for signing up.

Astronaut John Glenn was a test pilot and there were times that the products kept trying to kill him. He didn't sue and he couldn't because he knew what he signed up for: a beta product that could have killed him.

In summary, there has been no fraud in selling an unproven product.

You consented for a beta product. And if you didn't know you consented for it, the current class action suit will prove Tesla's point.

Both the comment I was replying to and my own were in reference to FSD, not enhanced autopilot.

And I think you've misinterpreted what I was saying. I was pointing out that the time to claim fraud over FSD hasn't come yet, since Tesla always made it pretty clear that it wasn't going to come before the end of 2017.
 
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Again, there is no fraud... I'm convinced you have no idea whatsoever what that word actually means... I know it's easy to throw around but at some point you're likely going to need to understand what it means first...

Jeff
Why don't you help him out and tell him what - you think - it means? That way, we can be sure to avoid a silly disagreement based on an equivocation.
 
Why don't you help him out and tell him what - you think - it means? That way, we can be sure to avoid a silly disagreement based on an equivocation.

Really? So that's where we're at now? LOL... Okay... Directly from Webster...

"intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"

Accusing Tesla of intentionally lying about AP2 software development is a pretty bold claim to make without any corroborating or supporting evidence... Don't you think?

Jeff
 
Really? So that's where we're at now? LOL... Okay... Directly from Webster...

"intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"

Accusing Tesla of intentionally lying about AP2 software development is a pretty bold claim to make without any corroborating or supporting evidence... Don't you think?

Jeff

Here's another assignment for you:
Res ipsa loquitur
 
Yeah, the reality is AP2 is quite bad still. Which would be perfectly fine had Tesla really been upfront about it and just invited us on an adventure. Many of us would have happily taken that bait.

However, reconciling the Tesla/Elon marketing of AP2 in late 2016 - or even the comms on the updates of 2017 - with reality is a bitter pill to swallow. It seems obvious the public was misled in a bad way for business benefit.

This with all the other shenanigans from Tesla (counter gate, peak rate throttling, free SpC back and forth, constant quarter games) have pretty much resulted in me losing all respect for the company. From my feelings in 2014 that is a dramatic shift.

I still think the product shows great promise (both the car and AP2), as an objective observation, but the company behind it has proven to be pretty terrible - as another objective observation.

Bravo and well said. I'm a Model S owner and Tesla enthusiast, but it is becoming more and more difficult for me to support a brand that resorts to deception in order to sell.

I have a problem and need advice. I drive a wonderful P85DL (AP1) with 50k miles. Indeed AP has been trustworthy on highways and some help on local roads for over a year. Fantastic car. Fantastic service. It makes me smile every day. I just wish it were a hardtop convertible.

I was proded into ordering an AP2 90D by the promise of "last chance for free supercharging for life" and fully autonomous driving on December 31, 2016. This new car would be a step down in speed, but a step forward in autopilot capacity into the future.

At that time, I had never heard of Mobileye, had no idea that Tesla was going backwards before going forwards, and that AP2 would have a long incubation period before it was equal to AP1 (if ever). I do highway driving for overnight work, and can't go backwards with safety. Safety is paramount. The sales pitch and online data said NOTHING about not having AP1 functionality on day one, only that the new capabilities would be developed over time (keyword NEW). I was told and believed that Tesla would provide a new car with old software capability and that the new hardware and functionality would only add to the old over time. Again, no notice from them and no idea that my new car wouldn't have the things I already use: excellent traffic aware cruise control, reliable autosteer up to 90mph, auto lane change, auto speed limit match, auto wipers, auto headlight dimming, I just new it wouldn't yet probably have auto freeway entry/exit, auto navigate, auto turn, auto stoplight and stop sign negotiation, those things which would be so cool to see coming any day now (or so I was told), but now might be all vaporware.

When I discovered via reading these forums in January that Tesla had NOT told the whole truth about losing access to all their prior AP1 technology, I cancelled my order. The car though was built faster than anyone would ever expect, and I was told I couldn't cancel, I would lose my $2500 deposit. I said OK, when AP2 is as good as AP1, I'll take delivery then. The salespeople thought that would be great, they believed Elon's tweets and thought in a few weeks they could deliver my car. So they held it a few weeks.

No such luck, obviously. In February I began asking for my deposit back. First salesman said okay to transferring it to a future order, but then I was told no, and because time had passed, no recourse. The regional sales manager called and told me no options, reasons were about having to be fair to others. But not many others (prior Tesla owners) in my situation wanting my deposit back, so I told her I would escalate. I think I have about 5 years to figure out how to do that, to get my deposit back. That might be credit towards my Model 3 or my next Model S if there is one worth buying. But at this point I'm not sure if I will ever buy another. After a truly wonderful experience with my first car and its servicing, they dropped the ball big time with me.

What option would you choose? $2500 is a lot of money to donate to Tesla, especially under the circumstances. I don't want to reward dishonest business practices. They need to clean up their act. They have been and will be a great company. But right now there are blemishes on their character.

What do you think?

I would sue Tesla in small claims court. Small claims courts are consumer friendly and will not look kindly on Tesla's non-delivery of a feature that you paid for, in good faith, but now doesn't appear to be anywhere on the horizon. You'll win. I would contact the media as well to get as much coverage as possible over this case. Unfortunately, it seems, Tesla needs to suffer a bloody nose before it will behave responsibly.

You'd think people would do some research before they spend this much money on a car... If you had, you'd have seen the software delays with AP1 and make the obvious connection that the same thing was going to happen with AP2... Don't come here and start whining about how unfair life is just because you were too inept to do enough research before you bought the car in the first place.

I'm sorry, but NO. Caveat Emptor is not a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever Tesla misrepresents. As a consumer, if you rely on representations made by a company to purchase their product, and those representations later proved to be false, you have a cause of action. Should Volkswagen customers have "researched" their diesel car purchases by having them smog checked prior to purchase in order to discover VW's misrepresentation of fuel efficiency numbers? That's the ridiculous argument you are attempting to make, and failing at, by the way.

People like you are never happy...

And people like you are always blaming the victim. What is your motivation here, may I ask? Are you a TSLA shareholder?