AP2 - Definitely heading in the WRONG direction...

[jeffro01]

I'm sorry, but NO. Caveat Emptor is not a get-out-of-jail-free card whenever Tesla misrepresents. As a consumer, if you rely on representations made by a company to purchase their product, and those representations later proved to be false, you have a cause of action. Should Volkswagen customers have "researched" their diesel car purchases by having them smog checked prior to purchase in order to discover VW's misrepresentation of fuel efficiency numbers? That's the ridiculous argument you are attempting to make, and failing at, by the way.

And people like you are always blaming the victim. What is your motivation here, may I ask? Are you a TSLA shareholder?

While I cut a part of your reply off I have to say is ridiculous to accuse Tesla of resorting to deception to sell. That's simply a lie.

Again, the point I'll continue to make here is Tesla has not/did not misrepresent, deceive, lie, whatever word you want to use about EAP and it's availability. That's again, simply not true. I realize it sounds better to those of you who can't accept reality to resort to slander to make your point but that doesn't change the fact that it's slander. BTW, nice straw man argument trying to pull from the VW scandal which has absolutely zero application here. What a joke of a straw man argument... I expect better from you by now...

I think we need to walk a fine line on this one, while I can see why you'd accuse me of blaming the victim, my motivation here is really about my general annoyance with @oktane and his constant, incessant, unending whining about EVERYTHING... Then to top it off the word "fraud" keeps getting thrown around without any respect for it's meaning. Tesla has NOT defrauded ANYONE... Why does that have to be constantly repeated? Is reading comprehension a problem for @oktane? Is it a problem for you? As I've said countless times before, and I'll say it again here since you asked, no I do not own a single share of TSLA at this time.

As far as my motivation goes? Good question... While I don't have a specific thing to point out, I just get tired of some posters consistently slandering Tesla and feel the need to call them out on it. You and I have went back and forth a time or two over the years and sometimes I've agreed with you and sometimes I haven't... I'll defend my positions at all times regardless, it's just who I am. That being said, if I turn out to be wrong, I'll admit it... It's happened before here, see the original launch mode counter thread where I shredded the OP only to come back and apologies and atone for that when the evidence became clear the OP was right. I'm not unreasonable and will admit when I'm wrong but in the mean time, I'll continue to defend my position. Simple as that.

Jeff

 

[oktane]

I really hate constantly laughing at you but again... LOL...

You have NOTHING to stand on but you keep trying to behave as if you do... I've asked you this before and I'll do it again, could you save us all some grief and sell your car and move on?

Jeff

You just need to educate yourself a little more on the legal definition of fraud, and not the "Merriam-Webster" definition. In case you didn't know, most judges don't use MW to formulate legal opinions. I find it comical that you lecture me about "not knowing the definition of fraud" but then go ahead and cut and paste a high school dictionary definition of fraud as if it is relevant. Please refer to CA civil code for the real definitions, which you can read at your leisure. I'll leave the rest to lawyers to fill in the blanks.

As you will learn, intent is not always required to satisfy the definition of fraud in CA. Tesla's deceit in AP2 is at least a reckless misrepresentation of the facts but probably intentional, either of which constitute fraud.

The tort negligent misrepresentation (also known as “constructive fraud”) requires that each and all of the following elements be proved:

“(1) a misrepresentation of a past or existing material fact,

(2) without reasonable grounds for believing it to be true,

(3) with intent to induce another’s reliance on the fact misrepresented,

(4) ignorance of the truth and justifiable reliance thereon by the party to whom the misrepresentation was directed, and

(5) damages.”

Example:
“Where a person makes statements which he does not believe to be true, in a reckless manner without knowing whether they are true or false, the element of scienter is satisfied and he is liable for intentional misrepresentation.” (Yellow Creek Logging Corp. v. Dare (1963) 216 Cal.App.2d 50, 57)

 

[jeffro01]

You just need to educate yourself a little more on the legal definition of fraud, and not the "Merriam-Webster" definition. In case you didn't know, most judges don't use MW for their legal decision making. I find it comical that you lecture me about "not knowing the definition of fraud" but then go ahead and cut and paste a high school dictionary definition of fraud as if it is relevant. Please refer to CA civil code for the real definitions, which you can read at your leisure. I'll leave the rest to lawyers to fill in the blanks.

As you will learn, intent is not always required to satisfy the definition of fraud in CA. Tesla's deceit in AP2 is at least a reckless misrepresentation of the facts but probably intentional, either of which constitute fraud.

The tort negligent misrepresentation (also known as “constructive fraud”) requires that each and all of the following elements be proved:

“(1) a misrepresentation of a past or existing material fact,

(2) without reasonable grounds for believing it to be true,

(3) with intent to induce another’s reliance on the fact misrepresented,

(4) ignorance of the truth and justifiable reliance thereon by the party to whom the misrepresentation was directed, and

(5) damages.”

Example:
“Where a person makes statements which he does not believe to be true, in a reckless manner without knowing whether they are true or false, the element of scienter is satisfied and he is liable for intentional misrepresentation.” (Yellow Creek Logging Corp. v. Dare (1963) 216 Cal.App.2d 50, 57)

I see your point but not in the way you probably hope... Your post is another example of how out of control Americans are when it comes to litigation...

Jeff

 

[oktane]

While I cut a part of your reply off I have to say is ridiculous to accuse Tesla of resorting to deception to sell. That's simply a lie.

Again, the point I'll continue to make here is Tesla has not/did not misrepresent, deceive, lie, whatever word you want to use about EAP and it's availability. That's again, simply not true. I realize it sounds better to those of you who can't accept reality to resort to slander to make your point but that doesn't change the fact that it's slander. BTW, nice straw man argument trying to pull from the VW scandal which has absolutely zero application here. What a joke of a straw man argument... I expect better from you by now...

Jeff

You can yell, scream, and repeat your "point" all you want, it doesn't make it any more true. Best thing for you to save face at this point is just peace-out of this argument. Better yet, put your money where your mouth is and purchase a new AP2 car and get back to me when you actually have a dog in this fight.

Until then, I can't really take anything you say regarding AP2 seriously, but I enjoyed the discussion.

 

[buttershrimp]

Top 10 Reasons for optimism for AP2 holders...

10). More cameras, more opportunities to catch people taking selfies around my car....

9). Newer is better.... case and point... observe the new POTUS (we are already getting tired of winning)

8). I already spent a lot of money on AP2, and due to my pathological optimism and inability to recognize sunk cost fallacies in my own life... we all know it's gonna be silky smooth at the next update!

7). Multitasking may be the art of doing several things poorly at the same time, Elon is the clearly the exception, if he wants to bore tunnels, explore Mars, figure out AI, and launch two rockets within 48 minutes of each other... who are we to question him?

6.) Even the dumbest sales folks I've met at Tesla, are freaking geniuses compared to the mouth breathing ape humans that sell ICE cars

5.) Has anyone tried other automakers self-driving technology lately? Mercedes, BMW? If so, has anyone lived to talk about it?

4.) Eye's are not intended to be Mobile... however, there is an "i" in the word "mobile", which is who they must have been thinking about when they left Tesla to cash out and begin offering sloppy seconds to other automakers.

3.) I trust the talent.... at least until the talent moves to a new better paying company....
↑
Tesla hires deep learning expert Andrej Karpathy to lead Autopilot vision
2.) Everyone on this forum is a serious Schopenhauer-esque acclimating addict... I swear to god, if the folks on this forum were to be the actor in the movie "Her" they would have given their smart phone girlfriends an eating disorder due to the constant berating comments about how fat their ankles look compared to their sister's (AP1) ankles

and the number 1 very real reason to be optimistic is....

1.) When you look at the model 3 spy photos, and think about the fact that the same hardware is in place as the AP2... you begin to realize that all of you AP2 hardware owning awkward pre-teens are about to discover your first orgasm... at which point, I will be able to spot you taking selfies around my car with one of my 8 cameras.... and don't think the fog can save you perverts... I've got radar all up in this mug.

 

[u00mem9]

Again, there is no fraud... I'm convinced you have no idea whatsoever what that word actually means... I know it's easy to throw around but at some point you're likely going to need to understand what it means first...

Jeff

I'm curious...are you actually saying Tesla had no intent to deceive, and actually thought they would deliver >AP1 level capability in Dec 2016 when they start taking orders in September? Or are you saying it would be tough to prove in court?

 

[Snowstorm]

Does the instrument cluster show vehicles in adjacent lanes like in AP1 yet?

 

[Tam]

Does the instrument cluster show vehicles in adjacent lanes like in AP1 yet?

No.

Please note that AP1 was announced and people bought it in 2014 without the benefit of autsteer for the whole year when it was finally activated on 10/2015.

AP2 was announced on 10/19/2016, it has not yet 1 year.

 

[daktari]

Well, 17.24.28 feels like an improvement for me. Far from FSD, but better than 17.17.4/17. Still does not read speed signs.

 

[nowtleft]

My AP1 reads spped signs in UK but since 8.1 update does not change the set speed to reflect it. I am 80% sure it did before 0 say I was in AP1 at 50mph and went into a 40mph zone it would read 40 on thendash and reduce speed to 40 - it doesnt now - am I wrong in thinking it did?

 

[malcolm]

I'd love to see people stop using the phrase "tried to kill me" when discussing autopilot.

You just have to remember to give it your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle.

That's why there was a jacket hanging on the Model 3 steering wheel.

 

[fasteddie7]

My AP1 reads spped signs in UK but since 8.1 update does not change the set speed to reflect it. I am 80% sure it did before 0 say I was in AP1 at 50mph and went into a 40mph zone it would read 40 on the dash and reduce speed to 40 - it doesnt now - am I wrong in thinking it did?

It still does on local roads. Interstate travel it does not. I have mine set to +5 so if the limit was 50 I'm at 55. If it drops to 35 it will automatically reduce to 40. On the interstate if it is 65, it will go 70, if I pass through construction at 45, the display will show 45, but i have to pull back on the stalk to adjust it to slow down, otherwise it will continue to go 70.

 

[nowtleft]

.. you would think it easy to get the car to slow down to match a new speed limit (or speed up for that matter). Work in progress but at the end of the day ANY Tesla is so much better than any other car I dont care

 

[robz]

Top 10 Reasons for optimism for AP2 holders...

10). More cameras, more opportunities to catch people taking selfies around my car....

9). Newer is better.... case and point... observe the new POTUS (we are already getting tired of winning)

8). I already spent a lot of money on AP2, and due to my pathological optimism and inability to recognize sunk cost fallacies in my own life... we all know it's gonna be silky smooth at the next update!

7). Multitasking may be the art of doing several things poorly at the same time, Elon is the clearly the exception, if he wants to bore tunnels, explore Mars, figure out AI, and launch two rockets within 48 minutes of each other... who are we to question him?

6.) Even the dumbest sales folks I've met at Tesla, are freaking geniuses compared to the mouth breathing ape humans that sell ICE cars

5.) Has anyone tried other automakers self-driving technology lately? Mercedes, BMW? If so, has anyone lived to talk about it?

4.) Eye's are not intended to be Mobile... however, there is an "i" in the word "mobile", which is who they must have been thinking about when they left Tesla to cash out and begin offering sloppy seconds to other automakers.

3.) I trust the talent.... at least until the talent moves to a new better paying company....
↑
Tesla hires deep learning expert Andrej Karpathy to lead Autopilot vision
2.) Everyone on this forum is a serious Schopenhauer-esque acclimating addict... I swear to god, if the folks on this forum were to be the actor in the movie "Her" they would have given their smart phone girlfriends an eating disorder due to the constant berating comments about how fat their ankles look compared to their sister's (AP1) ankles

and the number 1 very real reason to be optimistic is....

1.) When you look at the model 3 spy photos, and think about the fact that the same hardware is in place as the AP2... you begin to realize that all of you AP2 hardware owning awkward pre-teens are about to discover your first orgasm... at which point, I will be able to spot you taking selfies around my car with one of my 8 cameras.... and don't think the fog can save you perverts... I've got radar all up in this mug.

This is a great thread and this is the only post I read in the thread.

 

[buttershrimp]

I'm still new to the forum... and I don't yet know how to link one post onto a different thread ... so please forgive the cut and paste... but I thought this thread would also want to see this post...

OK, so after bribing my local tesla service center with krispy kreme donuts, I was able to get the 17.24.28 downloaded and drove 100 miles since. Here are my observations of 17.24.28 after having 17.22.46 for 2 weeks.

Here is my observation of 17.24.28:

1) Big improvement with very little, if any, regression from previous versions.

2) It's silky smooth and more precise within the lanes most of the time... long curves are much better, shorter curves are better but still need improvement.

3) It's more careful on the highway, there is more confidence and precision, and no ping-pong... the more careful part is interesting because it will hesitate in a way that feels like a careful human driver ready to hit the brakes... it doesn't take away from driving confidence though... even though it kind of sounds like this scenario would be troubling.... somehow it isn't troubling when it is hesitating... it's like you have greater certainty as to why the car may be being careful.

4.) The integration of radar has just been implemented or has somehow improved... I think it can see 2 cars in front of me much better... for example, if my car brakes when the car in front of me has not yet braked.... I have more confidence that it must be seeing someone braking 2 cars in front of me... it is similar to that european video where the model x sees an accident before it happens.... It's great that it is safer in this way...

5.) It's auto lane changing was all around better when no one is around, but also if you are in the right lane and a group of faster cars is passing you on the left... when you initiate the auto change as the last car passes you, it is more seamless pulling behind the passing car and accelerating appropriately.... however, you have to make sure it is the last car in the train of cars before auto-lane changing into the fast lane because it did try to cut someone off and squeeze me in to the stack when it definitely wasn't safe to do so.. also, it didn't lane change a couple of times though despite asking it... (see my conclusion/hope at the end of this list related to this observation)

5.) Better on well marked roads but I'm pretty sure it's biggest weakness right now is if there is a red light at the end of a curve, and cars are stopped at the light... it may not see them because it hasn't figured out of cars are in the lane... I abort before testing the AEB

6.) Not great with detection of traffic cones and things in the lane... but this isn't new

7.) I believe that AP2 has become surpassed AP1 in most areas on this update... that is, in my experience, AP2 is now better than the best AP1 I've driven... And just so you AP1 lovers don't have an aneurysm... the most recent time I extensively drove an AP1 vehicle was February 2017... one caveat... AP2 still can't show truck versus car and adjacent lanes... but with this update, I now firmly believe it sees car versus truck and knows what is in the adjacent lanes.... it just isn't showing it yet for some reason.

my hopes:

1) For auto lane change... (and probably parking or summon) I think tesla should use ambient red light around the center display when the car can't (or doesn't want to) follow a command... In order to tell the driver that the car doesn't want to do something doesn't see that it is safe or that there is an opportunity for a lane change.... If the left side of the driving display could glow red (similar to when the car tells you to hold the steering wheel)... I think this would make the experience better and more intuitive. I think tesla could provide feedback and communicate with the pilot through ambient lighting on the center display... so the driver doesn't have to take his eyes off the road...

Thoughts?

 

[Bladerskb]

No.

Please note that AP1 was announced and people bought it in 2014 without the benefit of autsteer for the whole year when it was finally activated on 10/2015.

AP2 was announced on 10/19/2016, it has not yet 1 year.

Please note that Tesla had 2 full years of Autopilot 1 source code & data which tremendously cut down their development time.
We could have been looking at 2-3 years not 9-12 months.

 

[Bladerskb]

I have no AP1 experience but I am very impressed with AP2 so far for the past 3,000 miles (mostly freeways).

1) Avoiding rear ending with a car in front most of the times. I had to brake on my own may be twice when I thought the system wouldn't brake timely.

By contrast, AP1 had quite a few of reports:

None of this is true. One of the biggest problem with ap2 is that it sometimes doesn't see the car infront especially trucks and vans.

there are alot more videos and pictures from even this forum

 

[Tam]

None of this is true. One of the biggest problem with ap2 is that it sometimes doesn't see the car in front especially trucks and vans.

I wouldn't say "none". I would say "some" because the system is still not perfect. And being imperfect does not mean it can do "none".

Seeing "none" is too much of a generalization.

If you read the comments on the example you cited on the lurching forward toward a stationary truck:

Tesla camera and radar do register this truck as a car icon. So it sees the wrong kind of vehicle but it still sees an obstacle.

The icon distance was initially and correctly interpreted as it got bigger and closer as displayed on the dashboard.

But then, once it got close enough, it REVISED the distance as further and updated the icon as smaller and further on the dashboard.

So it does see a truck as a car but when it got closer, it seemed to confused that beyond that fake "car" bumper, it's just too hollow and empty.

So if that was a car, it has to move up closer to something denser beyond that fake "car" bumper.

That's when the car lurched forward to adjust the distance according to the erroneous new revision as displayed on the dashboard.

In this case, this is an immaturity of the software that does not distinguish the difference between a high tall bed truck with lots of empty space from the rear wheels all the way to the fake bumper and a car.

Despite of its short comings in some scenarios, it still works in most other scenarios for my past 3,000 miles.

 

[Bladerskb]

I wouldn't say "none". I would say "some" because the system is still not perfect. And being imperfect does not mean it can do "none".

Seeing "none" is too much of a generalization.

If you read the comments on the example you cited on the lurching forward toward a stationary truck:

Tesla camera and radar do register this truck as a car icon. So it sees the wrong kind of vehicle but it still sees an obstacle.

The icon distance was initially and correctly interpreted as it got bigger and closer as displayed on the dashboard.

But then, once it got close enough, it REVISED the distance as further and updated the icon as smaller and further on the dashboard.

So it does see a truck as a car but when it got closer, it seemed to confused that beyond that fake "car" bumper, it's just too hollow and empty.

So if that was a car, it has to move up closer to something denser beyond that fake "car" bumper.

That's when the car lurched forward to adjust the distance according to the erroneous new revision as displayed on the dashboard.

In this case, this is an immaturity of the software that does not distinguish the difference between a high tall bed truck with lots of empty space from the rear wheels all the way to the fake bumper and a car.

Despite of its short comings in some scenarios, it still works in most other scenarios for my past 3,000 miles.

1 min 0 secs

For every video you try to explain away, i have 10 more...so just stop it lol

secondly the car infront disappearing and then the tesla speeding up all of a sudden is a known issue and has nothing to do with that truck, it has happened to vans, cars, etc.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Again, the point I'll continue to make here is Tesla has not/did not misrepresent, deceive, lie, whatever word you want to use about EAP and it's availability.

Others simply disagree with you on that one. Others feel Tesla possibly did misrepresent, though of course we'd need discovery to know for sure.

Tesla had the following to say of EAP from October to December, 2016 when purchasing a car, which gives a wholly different representation of what eventually shipped. They also claimed AEB "will" ship in December 2016, which it did not.